Jayco RV Owners Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 09-03-2019, 09:24 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Orange County, N.Y.
Posts: 657
Looking for fifth wheel towing advice

Hi all, I currently tow a TT but am looking to get a fifth wheel. My questions are about "pin weight". My current TV is a 2004.5 Ram 2500 with the HO 5.9 Cummins rated to tow 13,050lbs. GCWR is 20,000lbs ( I found this on several tow guides), GVWR is 9,000lbs ( from label on door) and curb weight is 6727 lbs ( from same label on door) but weighed 7540 on scale( full tank of diesel, 140lb driver, cap on bed and tool box in bed) . My truck is a 4x4 with a 6' 3" bed.
With the above info I am trying to find out what will be my limiting factor when looking at fifth wheel campers. If I understand it correctly I should estimate 15-20% of the fifth wheel GVWR to be my pin weight, is that correct??Iif so then I only have 1490lbs available of pin weight? ( GVWR- Curb weight) is that correct? Educate me please.
__________________

__________________
Joe, Joyce , 4 Kids and 5 Dogs.
2004.5 Dodge 2500 SLT Quad Cab 4x4 ,5.9 HO Cummins, Bilstein Shocks, 3.73 Gears, Reese dual cam, Prodigy brake controller.
2010 Jayco Jay Flight G-2 32 BHDS[IMG]https://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/imagesng
usmc616 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2019, 11:19 PM   #2
Junior Member
 
mbwatson11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Cumming
Posts: 13
You actually have less than that. You need to add the weight of the people, dogs, hitch and anything else in the truck to the curb weight. Then subtract that from the GVWR and that will leave you the available pin weight.
__________________

__________________
2017 Ram 2500 Crew Cab 6.7L Diesel 2WD w/Timbrens
2020 Jayco Eagle 317RLOK, Roadmaster Comfort Ride Shocks
2007 Ford F-250 Crew Cab - Forcibly Retired
2006 Sunnybrook Sunset Creek 312BHDS - Retired
mbwatson11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2019, 12:10 AM   #3
Senior Member
 
Big1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Lakewood, WA.
Posts: 1,972
You are really limited by your payload, look on the door and find out the number.
__________________
2018 Dodge Ram 3500 6.7L CTD
2019 Jayco Eagle 321RSTS 5th Wheel
Retired Army MSG
Big1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2019, 04:37 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 156
The payload will get you. Even if you have a 10,000 pound GVWR 5th wheel, at 15% pin weight, you're over your payload. And 15% is bare minimum.
__________________
Ford F250, Crew, 6.2 Gas, 4X4, Short Bed, Companion Hitch
2019 Jayco 28.5 RSTS, MorRyde orbital
Cincinnati Kid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2019, 05:52 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Orange County, N.Y.
Posts: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbwatson11 View Post
You actually have less than that. You need to add the weight of the people, dogs, hitch and anything else in the truck to the curb weight. Then subtract that from the GVWR and that will leave you the available pin weight.
I do realize I need to subtract the items you mentioned from my available GVWR. I was using just the driver weight to keep the math simple.
Could you provide me with your vehicles GVWR? Incase I need to start looking at a new TV. Thanks, Joe
__________________
Joe, Joyce , 4 Kids and 5 Dogs.
2004.5 Dodge 2500 SLT Quad Cab 4x4 ,5.9 HO Cummins, Bilstein Shocks, 3.73 Gears, Reese dual cam, Prodigy brake controller.
2010 Jayco Jay Flight G-2 32 BHDS[IMG]https://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/imagesng
usmc616 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2019, 05:55 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Orange County, N.Y.
Posts: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincinnati Kid View Post
The payload will get you. Even if you have a 10,000 pound GVWR 5th wheel, at 15% pin weight, you're over your payload. And 15% is bare minimum.
OK, thanks for the info, what is the pin weight percentage I should aim for 18%,20% ?
__________________
Joe, Joyce , 4 Kids and 5 Dogs.
2004.5 Dodge 2500 SLT Quad Cab 4x4 ,5.9 HO Cummins, Bilstein Shocks, 3.73 Gears, Reese dual cam, Prodigy brake controller.
2010 Jayco Jay Flight G-2 32 BHDS[IMG]https://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/imagesng
usmc616 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2019, 06:03 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Orange County, N.Y.
Posts: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big1 View Post
You are really limited by your payload, look on the door and find out the number.
For the life of me I do not see anywhere the label on the door states " this is your available payload". Does subtracting the vehicle's actual weight from the GVWR give me the available payload??
__________________
Joe, Joyce , 4 Kids and 5 Dogs.
2004.5 Dodge 2500 SLT Quad Cab 4x4 ,5.9 HO Cummins, Bilstein Shocks, 3.73 Gears, Reese dual cam, Prodigy brake controller.
2010 Jayco Jay Flight G-2 32 BHDS[IMG]https://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/imagesng
usmc616 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2019, 07:26 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
DonaandDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Kingston
Posts: 993
Adding Timbers or adding a leaf spring may get you to the local park, but if your towing long distances or looking for that 8-10 year period? It's time to up grade that truck. For me but a ford. The new trucks are now beast. The Dodge dually can handle 30,000 now.

__________________
Don & Donna Stout

E-9 Anchor Clanker
Full timers since 2010
2017 North Point 381 DLQS
2015 F-250 6.7 w/Timbrens
DonaandDon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2019, 06:50 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Orange County, N.Y.
Posts: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonaandDon View Post
Adding Timbers or adding a leaf spring may get you to the local park, but if your towing long distances or looking for that 8-10 year period? It's time to up grade that truck. For me but a ford. The new trucks are now beast. The Dodge dually can handle 30,000 now.

Adding a leaf or Timbrens will probably help my TV squat less when hitched up but I don't think that will help me avoid being over my GVWR.
__________________
Joe, Joyce , 4 Kids and 5 Dogs.
2004.5 Dodge 2500 SLT Quad Cab 4x4 ,5.9 HO Cummins, Bilstein Shocks, 3.73 Gears, Reese dual cam, Prodigy brake controller.
2010 Jayco Jay Flight G-2 32 BHDS[IMG]https://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/imagesng
usmc616 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2019, 07:14 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Missouri City, The Republic of Texas
Posts: 3,946
Quote:
Originally Posted by usmc616 View Post
Hi all, I currently tow a TT but am looking to get a fifth wheel. My questions are about "pin weight". My current TV is a 2004.5 Ram 2500 with the HO 5.9 Cummins rated to tow 13,050lbs. GCWR is 20,000lbs ( I found this on several tow guides), GVWR is 9,000lbs ( from label on door) and curb weight is 6727 lbs ( from same label on door) but weighed 7540 on scale( full tank of diesel, 140lb driver, cap on bed and tool box in bed) . My truck is a 4x4 with a 6' 3" bed.
With the above info I am trying to find out what will be my limiting factor when looking at fifth wheel campers. If I understand it correctly I should estimate 15-20% of the fifth wheel GVWR to be my pin weight, is that correct??Iif so then I only have 1490lbs available of pin weight? ( GVWR- Curb weight) is that correct? Educate me please.
My pin is 23% at my last weighing. 20-25% is what I’ve read is expected.
__________________
Cheers,
T_

2013 F-350 CC SB 2WD 6.7PS
2013 Eagle Premier 351 RLTS
-SOLD- 2012 X23B
-SOLD- 2003 Ford Expedition 5.4, Bilstein shocks
RedHorse1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2019, 07:22 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
Magnolia Tom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Magnolia
Posts: 4,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by usmc616 View Post
For the life of me I do not see anywhere the label on the door states " this is your available payload". Does subtracting the vehicle's actual weight from the GVWR give me the available payload??


Not sure on dodge (ram) but on fords there’s a sticker that has the tire size/inflation info and it states “cargo should not exceed xxxx pounds”.

You are correct in subtracting the actual weight from the GVWR to get the available payload. I’m kinda surprised your 3/4 ton only has 9000 pounds GVWR. I thought it would have been 10k
__________________
2016 North Point 377 RLBH, with a few mods, disc brakes, shocks, Sailun g rated tires, wet bolts
2014 Ford F350 Platinum sold
2017 Ford F350 Lariat, CC, 6.7PSD, DRW, Trailer Saver BD3 hitch

Magnolia Tom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2019, 07:45 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Orange County, N.Y.
Posts: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHorse1 View Post
My pin is 23% at my last weighing. 20-25% is what I’ve read is expected.
RedHorse1 Thank you for your reply. I believe I need a much stouter TV or need to buy a very light fifth wheel.
__________________
Joe, Joyce , 4 Kids and 5 Dogs.
2004.5 Dodge 2500 SLT Quad Cab 4x4 ,5.9 HO Cummins, Bilstein Shocks, 3.73 Gears, Reese dual cam, Prodigy brake controller.
2010 Jayco Jay Flight G-2 32 BHDS[IMG]https://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/imagesng
usmc616 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2019, 07:49 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Orange County, N.Y.
Posts: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnolia Tom View Post
Not sure on dodge (ram) but on fords there’s a sticker that has the tire size/inflation info and it states “cargo should not exceed xxxx pounds”.

You are correct in subtracting the actual weight from the GVWR to get the available payload. I’m kinda surprised your 3/4 ton only has 9000 pounds GVWR. I thought it would have been 10k
Magnolia Tom, Since my TV is 15 years old I figured the door labels back then did not state the available payload. I have been asking fifth wheel owners their numbers so I can get a better idea what TV I may need to purchase next. Thanks for the reply.
__________________
Joe, Joyce , 4 Kids and 5 Dogs.
2004.5 Dodge 2500 SLT Quad Cab 4x4 ,5.9 HO Cummins, Bilstein Shocks, 3.73 Gears, Reese dual cam, Prodigy brake controller.
2010 Jayco Jay Flight G-2 32 BHDS[IMG]https://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/imagesng
usmc616 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2019, 09:30 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by usmc616 View Post
Magnolia Tom, Since my TV is 15 years old I figured the door labels back then did not state the available payload. I have been asking fifth wheel owners their numbers so I can get a better idea what TV I may need to purchase next. Thanks for the reply.
Our F250 is 10,000 GVWR. It weighs, on a scale, with a full tank of gas, us, miscellaneous stuff and our 5th wheel hitch, about 7500#. (It's a gas engine, but if it was diesel, it would weigh closer to 8000#, because diesels weigh more.)

So we have 10,000 minus 7500= 2500 payload to play with. Our small 5th wheel puts around 2000# on the hitch, lightly loaded. So the last time we weighed it, we had 400- 500 payload left. (We were at 19% pin weight at that time.) We've been keeping Amazon busy, because there's always something else we need, so our weight has gone up, I'm sure. Next trip we'll reweigh it.

We're retired, and this, our first rv, might be our last- we'll see. But if we ever went bigger, we would need a dually.
__________________
Ford F250, Crew, 6.2 Gas, 4X4, Short Bed, Companion Hitch
2019 Jayco 28.5 RSTS, MorRyde orbital
Cincinnati Kid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2019, 08:57 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Orange County, N.Y.
Posts: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincinnati Kid View Post
Our F250 is 10,000 GVWR. It weighs, on a scale, with a full tank of gas, us, miscellaneous stuff and our 5th wheel hitch, about 7500#. (It's a gas engine, but if it was diesel, it would weigh closer to 8000#, because diesels weigh more.)

So we have 10,000 minus 7500= 2500 payload to play with. Our small 5th wheel puts around 2000# on the hitch, lightly loaded. So the last time we weighed it, we had 400- 500 payload left. (We were at 19% pin weight at that time.) We've been keeping Amazon busy, because there's always something else we need, so our weight has gone up, I'm sure. Next trip we'll reweigh it.

We're retired, and this, our first rv, might be our last- we'll see. But if we ever went bigger, we would need a dually.
Thank you for the info. I am getting a better idea of what numbers I need to look at.
__________________
Joe, Joyce , 4 Kids and 5 Dogs.
2004.5 Dodge 2500 SLT Quad Cab 4x4 ,5.9 HO Cummins, Bilstein Shocks, 3.73 Gears, Reese dual cam, Prodigy brake controller.
2010 Jayco Jay Flight G-2 32 BHDS[IMG]https://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/imagesng
usmc616 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2019, 09:37 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: SW
Posts: 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by usmc616 View Post
Hi all, I currently tow a TT but am looking to get a fifth wheel. My questions are about "pin weight". My current TV is a 2004.5 Ram 2500 with the HO 5.9 Cummins rated to tow 13,050lbs. GCWR is 20,000lbs ( I found this on several tow guides), GVWR is 9,000lbs ( from label on door) and curb weight is 6727 lbs ( from same label on door) but weighed 7540 on scale( full tank of diesel, 140lb driver, cap on bed and tool box in bed) . My truck is a 4x4 with a 6' 3" bed.
With the above info I am trying to find out what will be my limiting factor when looking at fifth wheel campers. If I understand it correctly I should estimate 15-20% of the fifth wheel GVWR to be my pin weight, is that correct??Iif so then I only have 1490lbs available of pin weight? ( GVWR- Curb weight) is that correct? Educate me please.
IMO, you have three options.

#1. Based on your empty truck weight of ~7,500 lbs. (and your 9k GVWR) you only have ~1,500 lbs. of payload--slightly more if you removed the cap (camper shell). If you want to stay at or under all your ratings (especially your 9k GVWR), you're going to be limited to towing a very small 5th wheel with approx. 1,000 lbs. of pin weight (remember you also have to deduct the weight of the hitch, passengers and gear from your payload).

#2 Even the newer 3/4-tons (with a higher 10k GVWR) are at or over GVWR/payload towing many 5th wheels. Many of these owners elect to just stay at or just under the RAWR (typically 6,000 - 6,500 lbs.) while ignoring the GVWR/payload ratings and call it a day.

I believe your truck has a 6,000 lb. RAWR. Your empty rear axle weight is most likely less than 3,500 lbs. If you're comfortable ignoring GVWR/payload, that gives you at least 2,500 lbs. of remaining rear axle capacity to support payload and pin weight. That would enable you to support 1,500 - 2,000 lbs. of pin weight (plus hitch, passengers, and gear).

#3. However, if you're NOT comfortable ignoring the GVWR/payload (or towing a very small 5th wheel), then your only option is to 1) upgrade to a newer 3/4-ton diesel with a 10k GVWR (to gain approx. 1k lbs. more payload vs. your current truck), 2) upgrade to a newer 1-ton diesel SRW truck with a 11.5k-12k GVWR (to gain 2k-2.5k lbs. more payload vs. your current truck), or 3) upgrade to a newer 1-ton diesel DRW (dually) with a 14k GVWR (to gain 4k-4.5k lbs. more payload). A gas truck in each of scenarios will net you an additional 500 - 1,000 lbs. of payload due to the lighter engine.

Google will unearth hundreds of debates about the pros and cons of ignoring GVWR/payload and using the RAWR to determine payload (with 3/4-ton trucks). I'd suggest Googling a few of these debates to help you make your best, informed decision.

Last, but not least, keep in mind the manufacturer's empty pin weight specs for their 5th wheels are low-ball numbers designed to sell trailers. An empty pin weight rating of 1,500 lbs. can easily balloon to 2,000 - 2,250 lbs. (or more) once the 5th wheel is loaded.

Good luck with whatever you decide!
CampNow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2019, 08:56 AM   #17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Missouri City, The Republic of Texas
Posts: 3,946
Below is a screen shot of my weight spreadsheet.
The TV is a '13 F350 2WD, SB, CC, Diesel
The factory weight of the 5th is 11402#
Click image for larger version

Name:	Trailer Weight.jpg
Views:	33
Size:	174.1 KB
ID:	53155
__________________
Cheers,
T_

2013 F-350 CC SB 2WD 6.7PS
2013 Eagle Premier 351 RLTS
-SOLD- 2012 X23B
-SOLD- 2003 Ford Expedition 5.4, Bilstein shocks
RedHorse1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2019, 08:41 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Orange County, N.Y.
Posts: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHorse1 View Post
Below is a screen shot of my weight spreadsheet.
The TV is a '13 F350 2WD, SB, CC, Diesel
The factory weight of the 5th is 11402#
Attachment 53155

Very helpful information. Thank you for sharing.
__________________
Joe, Joyce , 4 Kids and 5 Dogs.
2004.5 Dodge 2500 SLT Quad Cab 4x4 ,5.9 HO Cummins, Bilstein Shocks, 3.73 Gears, Reese dual cam, Prodigy brake controller.
2010 Jayco Jay Flight G-2 32 BHDS[IMG]https://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/imagesng
usmc616 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2019, 08:44 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Orange County, N.Y.
Posts: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by CampNow View Post
IMO, you have three options.

#1. Based on your empty truck weight of ~7,500 lbs. (and your 9k GVWR) you only have ~1,500 lbs. of payload--slightly more if you removed the cap (camper shell). If you want to stay at or under all your ratings (especially your 9k GVWR), you're going to be limited to towing a very small 5th wheel with approx. 1,000 lbs. of pin weight (remember you also have to deduct the weight of the hitch, passengers and gear from your payload).

#2 Even the newer 3/4-tons (with a higher 10k GVWR) are at or over GVWR/payload towing many 5th wheels. Many of these owners elect to just stay at or just under the RAWR (typically 6,000 - 6,500 lbs.) while ignoring the GVWR/payload ratings and call it a day.

I believe your truck has a 6,000 lb. RAWR. Your empty rear axle weight is most likely less than 3,500 lbs. If you're comfortable ignoring GVWR/payload, that gives you at least 2,500 lbs. of remaining rear axle capacity to support payload and pin weight. That would enable you to support 1,500 - 2,000 lbs. of pin weight (plus hitch, passengers, and gear).

#3. However, if you're NOT comfortable ignoring the GVWR/payload (or towing a very small 5th wheel), then your only option is to 1) upgrade to a newer 3/4-ton diesel with a 10k GVWR (to gain approx. 1k lbs. more payload vs. your current truck), 2) upgrade to a newer 1-ton diesel SRW truck with a 11.5k-12k GVWR (to gain 2k-2.5k lbs. more payload vs. your current truck), or 3) upgrade to a newer 1-ton diesel DRW (dually) with a 14k GVWR (to gain 4k-4.5k lbs. more payload). A gas truck in each of scenarios will net you an additional 500 - 1,000 lbs. of payload due to the lighter engine.

Google will unearth hundreds of debates about the pros and cons of ignoring GVWR/payload and using the RAWR to determine payload (with 3/4-ton trucks). I'd suggest Googling a few of these debates to help you make your best, informed decision.

Last, but not least, keep in mind the manufacturer's empty pin weight specs for their 5th wheels are low-ball numbers designed to sell trailers. An empty pin weight rating of 1,500 lbs. can easily balloon to 2,000 - 2,250 lbs. (or more) once the 5th wheel is loaded.

Good luck with whatever you decide!
So it looks like for me to do this right, and not settle on getting a smaller than desired fifth wheel, I will need to upgrade my TV. What I really like about my current TV is it is a non DEF diesel.
My plan of action probably will to get a 1 ton SRW and then purchase the fifth wheel we want.
Thank you for the time you put into gathering this information, it has helped me immensely.
__________________
Joe, Joyce , 4 Kids and 5 Dogs.
2004.5 Dodge 2500 SLT Quad Cab 4x4 ,5.9 HO Cummins, Bilstein Shocks, 3.73 Gears, Reese dual cam, Prodigy brake controller.
2010 Jayco Jay Flight G-2 32 BHDS[IMG]https://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/imagesng
usmc616 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2019, 04:20 PM   #20
Senior Member
 
Packerbacker_TX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Portland
Posts: 259
You're off to a good start and I'm sure it'll be reiterated several times here. You'll get some opinion from people towing anything they like and some opinion from the weight police too. The sensible thing is to stay within margin for legal liability and safety reasons. If you know your max payload is 1,500 lbs - allowing 20% tongue weight for a 5th wheel means you're limited to a 7,500 lbs 5th wheel - which is small by most standards. There are some considerations that can help a bit.
* Buy a "half ton towable" model as they're lighter than standard 5th wheels.
* Keep the 5th wheel light and don't load it down with stuff.
* Use the front of the 5th wheel storage for lighter items.
* Use a lighter 5th wheel hitch like an Andersen Ultimate Hitch (40 lbs vs. 200 lbs)
* Try not to tow your 5'r with water in the tanks. Each gallon weighs about 8 lbs.

Do the math a few times before you commit to a purchase. Good Luck!
__________________

__________________
2017 Ford F250 XLT 6.2 4X4 SCREW LB SRW 3.73
2018 Jayco Eagle HT 28.5 RSTS w/MORryde pin box
B&W Gooseneck Turnover ball and aluminum Andersen Ultimate 5th wheel hitch
Packerbacker_TX is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Jayco, Inc. or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2002-2016 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.
×