Tongue weight listed v reality payload issue

[Hiserman79]

Newbie here tons of reading and y'all got me paranoid. Picking up my 2017 Jay flight 28bhbe this week abvetrised dry tongue 685. Obviously propane battery and front storage gonna add to that but I'm seeing folks with same model 28bhbe saying they are 1100-1400lbs tongue weight and that just seems crazy and I'm in the 1500 payload problem. With 1200lb tongue weight myself wife kid dog and maybe a happy meal I'm maxed. Anyone with 28bhbe please chime in. Anyone with anything helpful please chime in. Tv is a 14 sierra 5.3 3.42 sticker 1792 payload. I'll rarely travel more than 50 miles one way to camp. Not new to towing but not overly experienced with this size camper.

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[Paintinfool3]

delivered tongue weight on door sticker of trailer is the place to start. all options on trailer add weight to the posted weight in brochure but i am like you 1100 to 1500 from 685 seems like alot.

[Paintinfool3]

One thing i have realized that is a downfall of most travel trailers is most of the storage capability of the trailer is towards the front. Mine has pass through storage in the very front. My storage under bed is in the front. My full size side to side closet is in front. When you begin adding things like leveling blocks and clothes and chairs and of course mine had a space for washer dryer combo in front you can see where it would start to add up

[rkresge]

Originally Posted by Hiserman79

Newbie here tons of reading and y'all got me paranoid. Picking up my 2017 Jay flight 28bhbe this week abvetrised dry tongue 685. Obviously propane battery and front storage gonna add to that but I'm seeing folks with same model 28bhbe saying they are 1100-1400lbs tongue weight and that just seems crazy and I'm in the 1500 payload problem. With 1200lb tongue weight myself wife kid dog and maybe a happy meal I'm maxed. Anyone with 28bhbe please chime in. Anyone with anything helpful please chime in. Tv is a 14 sierra 5.3 3.42 sticker 1792 payload. I'll rarely travel more than 50 miles one way to camp. Not new to towing but not overly experienced with this size camper.

I kinda wish Jayco didn't advertise the dry hitch weight. Look at it this way. That unit has a GVWR of 9250, vs. the dry weight of 6510 lbs. So if you carry your maximum cargo of 2750 lb, then your hitch weight will be about 10-15% of the GVWR - it's the way these things are designed. 15% of 9250 is 1387 pounds. Can your tow vehicle handle that?

One solution is to limit the cargo weight in your trailer AND truck. But no matter what, that sounds like a lot of trailer for your truck.

If you don't have any other options, then here's a suggestion. Take the whole rig directly to a CAT scale, dry. That will tell you how much net cargo headroom you still have to play with.

Roger

[Hiserman79]

I don't believe I'll ever have the camper maxed on weight with cargo but I know it adds up quickly. I was counting on 1000-1100lbs TW. Realizing this is pushing the advertised limits of my TV mostly in the payload dept we plan to be very mindful of gear. However if I have 1300 lbs of TW me the wife the kid and dog will be over the payload rating. 1100 TW gives me a mere couple hundred pounds of payload won't go very far. I'm not a complete stickler for the rules and wouldn't freak if over payload couple hundred pounds but I don't want to exceed payload by 400lbs or more.

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[rkresge]

Originally Posted by Hiserman79

I don't believe I'll ever have the camper maxed on weight with cargo but I know it adds up quickly. I was counting on 1000-1100lbs TW. Realizing this is pushing the advertised limits of my TV mostly in the payload dept we plan to be very mindful of gear. However if I have 1300 lbs of TW me the wife the kid and dog will be over the payload rating. 1100 TW gives me a mere couple hundred pounds of payload won't go very far. I'm not a complete stickler for the rules and wouldn't freak if over payload couple hundred pounds but I don't want to exceed payload by 400lbs or more.

It's worth keeping in mind that we're not talking about rules on this - the truck's cargo capacity is a safety issue. FWIW, it will probably *pull* your new TT just fine. The question is whether the frame and suspension can safely handle the cargo load.

Good luck!

Roger

[sennister]

Not only does the Dry Tongue Weight not include the propane and battery but it also doesn't include any factory or dealer installed options. I have never seen a trailer with no options at the dealer unless someone ordered it that way. It also doesn't account for the 80lbs or so for the WD hitch. It also doesn't account for clothing, beer, food, beer, blankets, beer, toys, beer, and anything else you might want to bring like beer.

I agree that I wish they didn't publish it. It isn't even a good estimate on what to expect when the camper is optioned out and loaded. There is also lots of storage in front of the axles that you are going to have to watch. It is way too easy to stuff lots of heavy stuff in the pass through and under the bed. If your camper is anything like ours, 70% of the storage is in front of the axles. Even thought it isn't as easy to access, everything heavy goes under the lower bunk in the back. The benefit to that is it leaves enough room to store the hitch and WD bars in the pass through while we are parked.

When we were shopping for a camper over the last couple years we really liked the double bunk floor plans with outdoor kitchen. I have always used GVWR to calculate TW and too many of those units were in the 7-8000 lbs range which meant I would be able to pull it but not with anything in it. While cargo limits are an issue, so is the hitch weight for us as even with a Class IV WD hitch we max out at 1000lbs. I don't want to have to weight the tongue of the trailer every time we set out to see if we are going to have an issue. Weights can change quite a bit. Maybe you are heading out with full fresh tanks and there is no dump site so you are leaving with full black and grey tanks. Well the fresh tank(s) are closer to the front and the black and grey are normally all the way in the back. This can shift your tongue weight quite a bit. If you are running that close to the max capacity that you can only do 10% tongue weight, that means you are going to have to shift cargo front and back every trip and try and chase that 10% number. If you have more buffer lets say 13% then it doesn't matter as much. As I have mentioned to other people. If I wanted to play the weights and balances game every trip, I would buy a plane and fly there. I would rather just set things up within specs and not really have to worry about. Swing by a CAT scale once and a while to make sure I am not over GVWR on the camper and call it good.

It is good you are looking into this. I would plan on at least 1100 lbs if you are not careful in packing. If you are boondocking (no hookups) you are going to be quite a bit heavier as you will likely put in bigger batteries or carry a generator. Also remember that dealer installed options and anything you added to the truck count against cargo limits. So if you have running boards, tonneau cover or bedliner. They all eat into that number.

[sennister]

Originally Posted by rkresge

It's worth keeping in mind that we're not talking about rules on this - the truck's cargo capacity is a safety issue. FWIW, it will probably *pull* your new TT just fine. The question is whether the frame and suspension can safely handle the cargo load.

Good luck!

Roger

I agree. It isn't getting the load moving. It is stopping it and stability going down the road. Sure lots of people say the camper has trailer brakes and I added air bags, better hitch receiver or better brakes on the truck. Will it help? I guess but how much. Odds are they are not an engineer for GM/Ford/Dodge/Toyota or any other company and have no clue on how to know how much those additions added to their capacity. So it might as well have added nothing. If there is an accident and there is an investigation. They will look at the trailer weight and the sticker on the truck. They are not going to say "Oh look there are air bags in the wreckage so that gave him another 1000lbs."

[rkresge]

Originally Posted by Hiserman79

I don't believe I'll ever have the camper maxed on weight with cargo but I know it adds up quickly. I was counting on 1000-1100lbs TW. Realizing this is pushing the advertised limits of my TV mostly in the payload dept we plan to be very mindful of gear. However if I have 1300 lbs of TW me the wife the kid and dog will be over the payload rating. 1100 TW gives me a mere couple hundred pounds of payload won't go very far. I'm not a complete stickler for the rules and wouldn't freak if over payload couple hundred pounds but I don't want to exceed payload by 400lbs or more.

Seriously, do a full CAT scale weighing on your way home with the trailer. Make it "DRY", so you'll know where you're at as you plan to load your rig. Then do another CAT weighing when you're fully loaded and set up. That way you'll know.

This from the guy who still hasn't done a CAT scale weighing. I'm towing a Jay Feather 23RLSW with an F-150. My TT's GVWR is just under 6000 lb, so my max tongue weight is about 900 pounds. My F150's cargo capacity is 1670 lb, so I don't get a lot of cargo capacity in the truck. As a result, we try to travel "light" on longer trips (more than 50 miles). But at least I have a pretty good idea what I can do and get away with.

Roger

[Hiserman79]

Thanks for the replies so far, I'm absorbing it all. I most definitely appreciate the insight. If I can keep the tongue weight under 1100 I think I'll be fine with payload issues but will Just have to be very mindful of gear and placement. I'm trying to learn and be safe so again I appreciate the advice. I don't think I would want this set up very long if I was towing long trips constantly. I really believe the farthest I'll ever travel loaded up is about 80 miles. I'm not a speed demon when towing 65mph is usually my max. I've no doubt pulling will be fine just that payload thing will sneak up on ya really quick. Luckily I have a soft bed cover and my step bars are less than 75lbs so it's mainly going to be mindful not to get crazy with gear. I'll hit the scales empty and then with a probably too much gear load and start removing gear as needed.
Keep the replies coming and anyone with similar set up it be great to hear from you.

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[sennister]

Just a FYI. The speed rating on ST tires is 65MPH. So you don't want to go faster than that anyhow. If it is anything I find that due to customer demand 1/2 trucks have a softer suspension. Too many people buy them and want them to ride like a car but have that truck look. This means that if one wants a truck to use it as a truck they need to at least look 3/4 ton. The suspension plays a big part in stability.

Also on the gear placement. Keep this in mind. The hard thing is that you are going to be fighting the simple fact that your camper is heavy coming out of the gate of the dealer completely empty. However when battling cargo capacity limits on the tow vehicle, carrying gear in the camper helps you. If you have 100lbs of cargo that you normally carry in the truck, if you can put it in the camper you are only carrying a % of it. That 100lbs of cargo placed in the camper will only account for about 10-15lbs toward your truck cargo capacity as 10-15% of that weight is carried in tongue weight. Positioning is key. Try and keep it over the axles or maybe behind. 100lbs in that front pass through storage almost completely counts toward hitch weight. So an example is our family packs duffel bags of clothing. It isn't a lot as we only go out for a couple days at a time. But all that goes in the lower bunk. Might as well use that lower bunk storage if you can while in transit. Stuff can also go in the bathroom. I don't play the balancing game from the stand point of weighing things every trip but I do shift weight out of the truck because I am close to the limits as well.

[Ottawasteve]

Having tugged an Eagle 28BHBE, which has same floorplan and length but is slightly heavier than the Jayflight due to construction materials, I can confirm that loaded tongue weight will be in excess of the published 660 - 680 lbs.

Brochure weight for our 2015 was 6500 lbs dry with a 660 lb tongue weight. As delivered, trailer is 7,300 lbs (due to bike rack, gel coat, options etc.) and loaded for camping TT comes in at 8,200-8,300 without fresh water and empty tanks. Tongue weight loaded for camping is 1050 lbs (12.5%) measured with a sherline scale under the jack. I was initially slightly over 1300 lbs of tongue weight due to tools and some other heavy stuff in front pass through, but moving heavy items under rear bunks can significantly lower tongue weights on the 28BHBE.

If you are concerned about sway/stability, get a Propride or Hensley hitch as they do a great job of eliminating sway and do a great job of transferring tongue weight to the front of the TV and back to the tires on the TT. There is an interesting thread on measuring tongue weight with a Propride under the stinger rather than under the jack. Have not had the opportunity to conduct this test myself but plan on it in coming weeks to see whether my tongue weight is actually a couple of hundred pounds less than what I measured under the jack.

Trailer brakes stop trailers. The braking distance of a 28BHBE behind a 3/4 ton is no shorter than a properly equipped 150/1500 unless the 3/4 ton or 1 ton has dual rear wheels. I know for a fact that a similarly equipped unloaded F250 of the same year has a longer stopping distance than a similarly equipped F150 and hitching up a trailer does not magically make a 3/4 ton or 1 ton stop faster, except in the fictional world of the internet.

Airbags do not change the ratings on your TV, but they do allow your TV to better handle heavy loads within its rated capacity. I can tell you from experience that when I am unloaded,and the airbags are stilled aired up for towing, the ride in my F150 is harsher than most 250/350's but as soon as the airbags are deflated to 5psi, they don't affect ride quality at all.

Just got back this month from a round trip from Ontario to Tampa with my setup. Set the cruise at 64mph, and had no problems maintaining the speed limit and not a single concern over stability despite some high winds through the mountains. If I was retired and full-timing a one ton diesel would be great, but my half-ton TV gets me back in forth to work during the week safely to pay for frequent weekend camping trips.

[sennister]

Originally Posted by Ottawasteve

Trailer brakes stop trailers. The braking distance of a 28BHBE behind a 3/4 ton is no shorter than a properly equipped 150/1500 unless the 3/4 ton or 1 ton has dual rear wheels. I know for a fact that a similarly equipped unloaded F250 of the same year has a longer stopping distance than a similarly equipped F150 and hitching up a trailer does not magically make a 3/4 ton or 1 ton stop faster, except in the fictional world of the internet.

This really depends on the vehicle. While I agree that 3/4 ton doesn't magically mean it stops faster I have found with GM products in the past that they tend to put heavier duty brakes on a 3/4 ton trucks and larger knowing that it is more likely used for trailering and carrying loads than a 1/2 ton. Just look at the fact that it has more cargo capacity. Case in point the OEM brakes on my 1500 Avalanche flat out sucked. Heck just daily driving around I was shocked at how bad they were. A big part of the problem was the brake bias set way too much to the rear axle. Coming down hills in the snow if I step on the brakes I could feel the rear axle lock up and fishtail. The way they integrated a drum parking brake and a disk main brake into the rear axle means less surface area and poor braking performance. The rear pads had to be replace 3-4 times before the front set. The OEM brakes on my father-in-law's 2500 Sierra of the same model year were amazing compared to the 1/2 truck. Largely because they were balanced better. I agree that trailer brakes are sized and designed to stop the trailer. However not all trailers have brakes and the manufacturers know this. I have three trailers. My aluminum utility trailer is probably heaviest when loaded with my John Deere Z950R which combined comes in at about 3K lbs. Every state differs on this a bit but in most states (including MN) 3K lbs is the limit and anything over that needs trailer brakes. My other two trailers have brakes because one is the Jayco camper and the other a tandem axle landscaping dump trailer with surge brakes and they are both well over 3K lbs.

This is why I said 1/2 ton trucks being more built for the person that wants the look of driving a truck rather than using it for a truck. Hey we have a 1/2 ton but it is used 95% of the time as a minivan. It is that 5% of the time that we use it as a truck and I can live with that. If I was a landscaper and needed a truck to pull around my utility trailer with my lawn mower or dump trailer 95% of the time and 5% as traditional transportation then I would have a 1 ton.

[Camper_bob]

I used to tow the 28BHBE with a 2012 GMC Sierra 5.3 6-spd auto with HD tow package. My sticker payload was ~1454 lbs. If your payload according to the sticker in your door is what you say it is (in the 17XX lb neighborhood) and you don't get too crazy loading up the trailer and truck, you should be able to do it within limits fairly easily.

Check out my first CAT results here: http://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f3...lts-17202.html

I have since upgraded to a Ram 2500, and I'm towing with a Blue Ox Sway Pro instead of the Fastway I had back then. I don't worry about weight any more. I don't own enough stuff to overload my current setup.

My usage pattern is different than yours though, and my payload was lower. Any time we leave the house towing the trailer, we're traveling a minimum of 2 hours with RARE exception. We've traveled quite a bit farther than that many times, and we did our first really long distance (1900 miles round trip) last Fall. At the rate we were using our rig, and being VERY close to maxing it out, I was afraid of the wear & tear on the truck. When I upgraded, we had a baby on the way, and I knew there was no way we could keep our weights down and I got tired of worrying about it.

Keep these things in mind: It's true that A LOT of storage on this floor plan is in front of the axles, which directly contributes to tongue weight. The water tanks are slightly in front of the axles, so keeping water weight down helps a lot, and that's a big deal in my trailer (don't know if all BHBEs are configured the same way) with 2x40gal fresh water tanks. Longer trailers tend to tow better with 13-15% tongue weight, so don't bother with 10% as a figure in your calculations. Unless you're using the aforementioned Hensley or Propride ($$$$$), your trailer will tow like crap with that little tongue weight. Remember that everything aft of the truck's rear axle is technically considered "tongue weight". If you plan to consistently tow long distances (longer trips=more weight=more wear & tear, etc.) you will want to consider upgrading the truck some day.

Bottom line: Take your truck loaded as close to "as if" as you can get to a CAT scale and get your REAL payload figure. GVWR - Scale weight = REAL available payload. I think a sub-1000 lb tongue weight in the 28BHBE is VERY doable, but it's easy to go higher than that, so just be careful what you load up front (or at all for that matter) and you can get it done.

Check back in and let us all know how it goes!

[LiftedAWDAstro]

My 2017 28BHBE comes in at 8500# with full fresh water and gear/food/beer for just my wife and I. I towed with a 2013 Tundra using a ProPride hitch and it pulled, handled and stopped great. I was overloaded though and would not have been comfortable with any other WDH than the ProPride. I used the equity in the truck to trade up to a Diesel...much nice towing experience now.

What WDH are you going with?

[Hiserman79]

Originally Posted by LiftedAWDAstro

My 2017 28BHBE comes in at 8500# with full fresh water and gear/food/beer for just my wife and I. I towed with a 2013 Tundra using a ProPride hitch and it pulled, handled and stopped great. I was overloaded though and would not have been comfortable with any other WDH than the ProPride. I used the equity in the truck to trade up to a Diesel...much nice towing experience now.

What WDH are you going with?

E4 I believe for the Hitch, I'll never haul water as all my camping will be "glamping" with full hook up lol. 2x a year we will "boondock" amd even then theirs a water truck that fills ya up for $25. Then a dump site is only 5 miles away. We full intend to very mindful of the gear we pack. We have also concluded today most of the time since we will mailybcamp within 80 miles and vast majority time within 30 miles the wife will just follow along hauling the kid, dog and anything else to help reduce payload weight.

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[Hiserman79]

Originally Posted by Camper_bob

I used to tow the 28BHBE with a 2012 GMC Sierra 5.3 6-spd auto with HD tow package. My sticker payload was ~1454 lbs. If your payload according to the sticker in your door is what you say it is (in the 17XX lb neighborhood) and you don't get too crazy loading up the trailer and truck, you should be able to do it within limits fairly easily.

Check out my first CAT results here: http://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f3...lts-17202.html

I have since upgraded to a Ram 2500, and I'm towing with a Blue Ox Sway Pro instead of the Fastway I had back then. I don't worry about weight any more. I don't own enough stuff to overload my current setup.

My usage pattern is different than yours though, and my payload was lower. Any time we leave the house towing the trailer, we're traveling a minimum of 2 hours with RARE exception. We've traveled quite a bit farther than that many times, and we did our first really long distance (1900 miles round trip) last Fall. At the rate we were using our rig, and being VERY close to maxing it out, I was afraid of the wear & tear on the truck. When I upgraded, we had a baby on the way, and I knew there was no way we could keep our weights down and I got tired of worrying about it.

Keep these things in mind: It's true that A LOT of storage on this floor plan is in front of the axles, which directly contributes to tongue weight. The water tanks are slightly in front of the axles, so keeping water weight down helps a lot, and that's a big deal in my trailer (don't know if all BHBEs are configured the same way) with 2x40gal fresh water tanks. Longer trailers tend to tow better with 13-15% tongue weight, so don't bother with 10% as a figure in your calculations. Unless you're using the aforementioned Hensley or Propride ($$$$$), your trailer will tow like crap with that little tongue weight. Remember that everything aft of the truck's rear axle is technically considered "tongue weight". If you plan to consistently tow long distances (longer trips=more weight=more wear & tear, etc.) you will want to consider upgrading the truck some day.

Bottom line: Take your truck loaded as close to "as if" as you can get to a CAT scale and get your REAL payload figure. GVWR - Scale weight = REAL available payload. I think a sub-1000 lb tongue weight in the 28BHBE is VERY doable, but it's easy to go higher than that, so just be careful what you load up front (or at all for that matter) and you can get it done.

Check back in and let us all know how it goes!

Thanks for your cat scale link that has been very helpful. My ship weight is 65xx per sticker in door. I meant to write it down, but forgot. I do reminder it being 65xx which I was surprised because it was very close to published uvw.

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[motorbreath]

I have the exact same setup except for a 2015 Sierra, fully loaded with 2x30lb propane tanks and a 75lb house battery results in a tongue weight of 750-850lb with WDH engaged. The variation depends on how much weight I have in the front storage area.

I do not have the Elite package, this seems to add some weight.

Originally Posted by Hiserman79

Newbie here tons of reading and y'all got me paranoid. Picking up my 2017 Jay flight 28bhbpe this week abvetrised dry tongue 685. Obviously propane battery and front storage gonna add to that but I'm seeing folks with same model 28bhbe saying they are 1100-1400lbs tongue weight and that just seems crazy and I'm in the 1500 payload problem. With 1200lb tongue weight myself wife kid dog and maybe a happy meal I'm maxed. Anyone with 28bhbe please chime in. Anyone with anything helpful please chime in. Tv is a 14 sierra 5.3 3.42 sticker 1792 payload. I'll rarely travel more than 50 miles one way to camp. Not new to towing but not overly experienced with this size camper.

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[PonyExpress]

Originally Posted by sennister

Not only does the Dry Tongue Weight not include the propane and battery but it also doesn't include any factory or dealer installed options. I have never seen a trailer with no options at the dealer unless someone ordered it that way. It also doesn't account for the 80lbs or so for the WD hitch. It also doesn't account for clothing, beer, food, beer, blankets, beer, toys, beer, and anything else you might want to bring like beer.

sennister, I read your post rather quickly but I think you forgot to mention beer! It can be heavy and should be taken into account.

[Ottawasteve]

Originally Posted by PonyExpress

sennister, I read your post rather quickly but I think you forgot to mention beer! It can be heavy and should be taken into account.

The good news is that 100 lbs of beer in the fridge will add less than 12 lbs at 12% tonque weight which should be significantly reduced for the return trip home !