Tow Vehicle Selection Question - Total Newbie

[Mike92646]

Greetings All

My apologies for the lengthy post! My question is "have I done my homework correctly?"

My wife and I are potential RVers - approaching retirement in our 60's. She has never RV'd, I did with my parents back in the '70's. My retirement dream is to buy a Travel Trailer and see America!

Maybe we started backwards but we shopped around and have our hearts set on a Jay Flight 212 QB 25' with a 6000 lb GVWR and tongue weight of ~600 lbs. We haven't bought it yet.

Now I need a tow vehicle. I quickly realized my Grand Cherokee with 3500 lb tow rating wasn't cut out for the job.

Experienced friends told me the loaded trailer weight should be no more than 70% of the tow vehicle tow rating. So for my 6000 lb GVWR Jayco 6000/0.7 = ~8600 lb tow rating needed.

After shopping around it seems the Ram 1500 (4X2) with the 5.7L V8, integrated trailer brake controller and 3.21 Axle will work. (8350 lb tow rating a little low but not significantly)

I also learned that the tongue weight gets added into the vehicle GVWR. The Ram has a payload of 1840 so this leaves at least 1200 for people/luggage/stuff after subtracting out 600 lb for the trailer tongue weight. GVWR 6900 - Ram Weight 5055 = 1845 payload (passengers, luggage, tongue weight)

Lastly, the trailer plus loaded vehicle shouldn't exceed the GCWR. For the Ram this is ~14000, so subtracting 6000 lb for trailer and 6900 lb Ram GVWR leaves at least 1000 lbs margin.

I looked around on the Jay Flight 212 thread and see most people have Rams or F150's but also saw a GMC Canyon and Durango - both of which seemed to me to be too small.

Any thoughts? Am I over-thinking this? (Yes I'm an engineer......) The numbers for the Ram are from the 2021 Ram 1500 SAE J2807 Trailer Towing Chart. I see some posters recommend going to a truck scale - but that seems kind of late to find out your TV is too small...

Any advice for this newbie couple from Orange County, Ca will be greatly appreciated.

Mike

[LuckyDuck]

Welcome to JOF — and congrats on your soon-to-be new TT. I’ll let others weigh in specifically on the merits of the Ram you’re talking about. But a couple of thoughts: Tow capacity is far less important than payload and your tongue weight is key to that. Your estimate of a 600-pound tongue weight sounds low, especially when you figure in a weight distribution hitch. Personally, I think you’re looking at closer to 700.

There are plenty of threads here on “what can I tow with what”. A search should turn them up. Also, here are two good videos explaining payload and towing capacity. I’d suggest watching them both before making the buy. (BTW, you’ll love the 212QB!).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIhRJe1O5eY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwFLOBrADBs

[Old and soft]

You might want to consider upping your estimated tongue weight. Fresh water tank in front of the axles? Carry any water? Add the gear in the front storage. Anything packed in front of the axles will add some tongue weight. Dont forget the weight distribution hitch weight. 900 may be a closer estimate. It is all just an estimate until scaled.

[TaftCoach]

We have that floorplan in a trim level they don't offer any more, the Jay Flight 21QB. I've pulled it with two different half ton trucks, both Ford. You should be fine with that set up. We had a lot of camping experience from backpacking to pop ups. We've traveled from Texas to Maine, across Canada, and down through the Rockies with it for up to two months. It's been solid with a few modifications.

Most non engineering types think of tow capacity as a go capacity. But it's really more of a stopping and steering rating. The more capacity you have in reserve the safer you will be in an unexpected situation.

[JFlightRisk]

Welcome to the Forum from Western New York State!

Our trucks have been an early 2004 Toyota Tundra, 4.6L v8, 4:30 rear axle ratio, which worked well with our last (large) pop up, but wasn't a good match when we bought our 19RD trailer. The predecessor to the 212. We upgraded to a 2010 Tundra, 5.7L v8, also 4:30 rear end, and that worked much better. When it was time to upgrade to a newer truck, the (2WD) F150 3.6L twin turbo v6, 3:55 axle with the MaxTow package was a little better TV than the Tundra IMHO., and I really liked the Toyota a lot.

Think ahead to a time when you may decide to get a little larger trailer and try to get a truck that'll be capable for THAT one too. Then you won't find the need to upgrade your truck at the same time.

[Kim Gass]

You will be fine with your tow vehicle selection
The Canyon works for us.. But we have done just a few trips.. one trip to Newfoundland Labrador which was about 2500 miles round trip.. Newfoundland is a lot of up and down and fierce crosswinds.. There is a place called Wreckhouse for a reason. winds are typically 60 mph on a good day.

We have been to Florida from Maine and had no issues. We go through the Smokies. Another five grand miles perhaps..

The rest of our trips have been in Maine and because of where our home is involve significant ascents( 12 percent) and descents but not over two or three miles.

Stopping has not been an issue. We use an Andersen WDH which adds about 55 lbs to tongue weight. We do have two propane bottles and two batteries.

Best of all we have good control on rutted logging roads and on snow and ice. ( that season again) but that is because we have a 4 wd option.

As we camp a lot in Provincial Parks and camping areas in Maine North Woods the 212 is going to be our final vehicle.. Its at the top end of what sites can handle generally.

[Murff]

Hi Mike,

Nice you are doing your homework before buying. A trailer with a 6000 GVW could actually deliver nearly 900 pounds of tongue weight. It's recommended to have about 12 to 15% tongue weight. The Dodge would be an okay choice but I'd opt for a lower (higher numerical) rear axle. 3.21 gears are pretty high. I'd go with nothing less than 3.55 gears. You will hate the 3.21 when you have to climb a steep grade as you explore the USA.

I see some Dodges only offer 3.21 or 3.92. Given the choice, I'd opt for the 3.92.

Murff

[craigav]

Originally Posted by Mike92646

Greetings All


After shopping around it seems the Ram 1500 (4X2) with the 5.7L V8, integrated trailer brake controller and 3.21 Axle will work. (8350 lb tow rating a little low but not significantly)

Mike

I would make sure it has the tow package which I suspect it does seeing it has an integrated brake controller. I would also opt for the higher ratio rear axle, at least the 3.55 but I would go with the 3.92 as that should increase your tow capacity and also be easier on the engine and transmission especially when you go over the mountains. Having an 8 speed should still allow for similar fuel mileage regardless of the axle ratio. Also, the price difference for the higher ratio axle is nil. ~CA

[Lake Huron]

Dont think of just today, think of your future. You buy the trailer, you buy the truck. Everything is good, for now. In the future you see a different trailer you (the wife) fall in love with and (she) want it. Now your truck will be maxed out or real.close to it. Being an engineer, put a little overkill into your plan. Overkill isn't always a bad thing. You dont need to go BIG or go home, but go big. Get a 2500 and throw a Cummins in it. Gassers tow just fine for a majority of people out there because most people aren't travelling America like you want to do. A diesel, and going to a 2500, will make seeing America on the road a lot nicer.

[LukeDagny]

Mike, your math is correct. I went through similar when we had a travel trailer.

I had a Toyota Tundra and was within the rated limits of that vehicle when towing. My "margin of error" was less than rule of thumb 30%. I moved up to a lightly used Ford F350 with a payload of ~4500# and things feels a lot more secure.

My experience is if you plan on traveling far away, you can't have too much truck.

[Jagiven]

Hello Mike, what year are you looking at? I see the 2023 model has a GVWR of 5500 lbs.

There is a lot to consider. when sizing a TV. I personally do not look at what the TV manufacture says the payload or towing capacity is in their advertisement. I use the yellow sticker on the driver's door frame of the vehicle I am considering. It indicates what the payload capacity is for that particular vehicle as built. Payload is everything in, on, attached to the vehicle. Most manufactures include an "average sized driver of 150 lbs" and a full tank of fuel. That yellow sticker is your guide to that vehicles capabilities.

I would not use 600 lbs for your tongue weight. The tongue weight is a ratio of how much stuff you put in the camper and where it is loaded. The tongue weight should be between 10 and 15% of the GVWR of the TT. For calculation purposes you should use 15%, it is quite surprising how fast the weight adds up. So on a 5500 lbs GVWR, figure about 850 lbs tongue weight. Ideally for best handling your tongue weight should be around 13-14% GVWR. Below 10% you will have horrible handling and could loose control in a sway incident.

Besides the tongue weight you need to determine what you will have in or on the TV, some examples:

• 200 lbs - driver's weight
• 0 lbs - DW's weight (150 lbs for manufacture's allowance)
• 50 lbs - DW's purse, plus items under under the seats
• 40 lbs - Dog
• 70 lbs - WDH (Weight Distribution Hitch)
• 200+lbs - Entertainment in the truck bed (bikes, firewood, cooler, corn hole game, generator, etc)
• ? lbs - Guests (grandkids??)
• ? lbs - Vehicle modifications (topers, added running boards, etc)

It is easy to add 560 lbs of payload inside the TV before you even hook up. Now add the estimated tongue weight and you are at 1,385 lbs. No friends, kids, grandkids (fyi, grandkids add a lot of extra weight, think entertainment stuff).

My old truck I towed with for many years pushing it's payload capacity. I'm not a 70% payload capacity person. But I strongly recommend leaving a fair amount of spare capacity. There is times where you may bring grandkids, or in our case twice a year, we bring a lot of extras along (Halloween campout, trick or treating in the state park, lots of decorations and fun. Family reunions, just more stuff). Having some excess capacity is nice for those occasional adventures. It is also nice running under capacity in high heat. I have been forced to turned off my AC in high heat to keep the TV engine happy.

https://www.jayco.com/rvs/travel-tra...t-slx-8/212qb/

This is an advertisement video, but is shows sway if the tongue weight is to low.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9Dgxe584Ss

[SkyBound]

I have used 4X4 on numerous occasions with my trailer in tow. I would never in a million years be without four wheel drive on a truck.

[TaftCoach]

Originally Posted by SkyBound

I have used 4X4 on numerous occasions with my trailer in tow. I would never in a million years be without four wheel drive on a truck.

And in thirty years I've never needed four wheel drive while towing my TT.

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by SkyBound

I have used 4X4 on numerous occasions with my trailer in tow. I would never in a million years be without four wheel drive on a truck.

Originally Posted by TaftCoach

And in thirty years I've never needed four wheel drive while towing my TT.

Another vote for periodically needing it. Wet grass and soft soil can be a real pita.

[Mike92646]

I want to thank everybody for the interesting and informative replies. I read every one carefully. (Kim - I hope you didn't think I was critical of your TV selection - just questioning) My 600 lb tongue weight was a typo - I meant to change that to 900 and redo the calculation. I am reconsidering the 3.21 and may go 3.92 if I can find one gently used.

[Kim Gass]

Originally Posted by Mike92646

I want to thank everybody for the interesting and informative replies. I read every one carefully. (Kim - I hope you didn't think I was critical of your TV selection - just questioning) My 600 lb tongue weight was a typo - I meant to change that to 900 and redo the calculation. I am reconsidering the 3.21 and may go 3.92 if I can find one gently used.

Some of us are on the upslope of buying trailers so thinking of a truck that will haul the next ( assumedly bigger) truck is logical.. We know we will not tow nor cannot tow a bigger trailer with our rig. Our garage is small and a midsize truck is the best we can do. We have the room to keep it outside but it would be plowed in ( we usually get 150 inches of snow) We actually may downsize some the trailer stuff We have two televisions.. This makes no sense when there are no broadcast stations within 150miles. Most of our gear including camp chairs and tables is designed for backpacking. We don't carry water in general. Etc

We are at the length limit of some of our favorite Provincial Parks in Newfoundland and Ontario.( pesky trees)

I have seen 212s towed by SUVs. Sway is not so much of a problem on logging roads where we are as much as clearance.

Were I to live in SD or TX.. yeah bigger is better. Especially with all the truck traffic..

We live just nine miles off I 95. Usually you can play a game on it. Very little traffic.. Not the 95 of horror stories ( though it goes near Stephen Kings house)

Happy campering Mike


We are having to keep up with clearing the Trailer roof of snow.. And 4x4 with our without trailer is a must. You could find those 2 wd vehicles easily today.. in the snowbank. Despite that you have to remember that 4WD doesn't stop any better.. ( all vehicles are 4 wheel brake).. DH went around the corner too fast and hung the truck up on a rock.. Needed 4wd and a push to get it off!

[kle15]

You will love the 212QB! We had an F 150 we towed with. We had no problem. I needed to upgrade to an F250 for my equipment trailer. While the F 150 worked, with the F 250 you really don't even know it's back there. BTW we looked at upgrading the 212QB but can't find a floor plan that better suites us. Best of luck!

Originally Posted by Mike92646

Greetings All

My apologies for the lengthy post! My question is "have I done my homework correctly?"

My wife and I are potential RVers - approaching retirement in our 60's. She has never RV'd, I did with my parents back in the '70's. My retirement dream is to buy a Travel Trailer and see America!

Maybe we started backwards but we shopped around and have our hearts set on a Jay Flight 212 QB 25' with a 6000 lb GVWR and tongue weight of ~600 lbs. We haven't bought it yet.

Now I need a tow vehicle. I quickly realized my Grand Cherokee with 3500 lb tow rating wasn't cut out for the job.

Experienced friends told me the loaded trailer weight should be no more than 70% of the tow vehicle tow rating. So for my 6000 lb GVWR Jayco 6000/0.7 = ~8600 lb tow rating needed.

After shopping around it seems the Ram 1500 (4X2) with the 5.7L V8, integrated trailer brake controller and 3.21 Axle will work. (8350 lb tow rating a little low but not significantly)

I also learned that the tongue weight gets added into the vehicle GVWR. The Ram has a payload of 1840 so this leaves at least 1200 for people/luggage/stuff after subtracting out 600 lb for the trailer tongue weight. GVWR 6900 - Ram Weight 5055 = 1845 payload (passengers, luggage, tongue weight)

Lastly, the trailer plus loaded vehicle shouldn't exceed the GCWR. For the Ram this is ~14000, so subtracting 6000 lb for trailer and 6900 lb Ram GVWR leaves at least 1000 lbs margin.

I looked around on the Jay Flight 212 thread and see most people have Rams or F150's but also saw a GMC Canyon and Durango - both of which seemed to me to be too small.

Any thoughts? Am I over-thinking this? (Yes I'm an engineer......) The numbers for the Ram are from the 2021 Ram 1500 SAE J2807 Trailer Towing Chart. I see some posters recommend going to a truck scale - but that seems kind of late to find out your TV is too small...

Any advice for this newbie couple from Orange County, Ca will be greatly appreciated.

Mike

[joe w]

We tow our 212QB with a RAM with those very specs you mention and have done so cross country now for three years. Insure you have a WD hitch that is properly configured and you'll have no problem. The hitch we have is a Husky centerline TS and it has proved to be great even in some nasty crosswinds. I most always tow at 62MPH and average between 11 & 13 MPG on level terrain with no headwind. Having about 8 gallons of water in the tank in case we need to use the bathroom or wash hands is all we carry. Have fun and enjoy your travels.

[Falcon67]

I can tell you how a 212QB works behind a 2021 F-150 3.5L dual turbo EcoBoost sometime this coming Saturday. We have pulled a Keystone 220RD with the F-150 without issue, using an Equalizer 10K WDH. The 220RD is about 2500lbs GVWR larger than the 212QB.

We'll be pulling the 212 home on pure bumper pull using just the hitch ball. I expect zero issues.

FWIW - The 2021 EcoBoost pulls rings around our older 2004 F-150 5.4L.

If you want bullet proof pulling - F-350 DRW.

Only 4WD vehicle we ever owned was an 86 CJ-5. No 4WD trucks, not needed. We live in the south. Granted, every 3/4 and 1 ton truck on the lots here is 4WD and diesel, so I have to customer order but still.

[Mike92646]

I thought I'd post an update on our tow vehicle/trailer search. We purchased a gently used 2019 Ram 1500 Limited (5.7 L Hemi, 3.92 Rear End, 32K miles) with the tow package meaning extended mirrors, integrated trailer brake controller, Cl IV hitch, etc.

Since I have almost no towing experience my plan is to rent a 6'X12' U-haul box trailer and pull that around for a day or two. Since I live in Orange County I can experience a wide variety of traffic and road conditions. Once I feel confident with that, I plan to rent a smaller 13' to 16' trailer and pull that around again for a few days. We may even try getting a camping spot close to home and 'practice camping' - set up, take down, etc but maybe not actually stay overnight before we make a final purchase decision on the trailer.

I know this may sound a little crazy but this is new to us, especially my wife who has never done this. I have considered the opposite alternative - buy the camper and the first trip be when we leave on an extended 60 - 70 day tour. Now that would be adventure!