Towing 2012 35lkts

[Smitty]

Clutch, I was looking at the Firestone air bags today. Found a website that has them for around $255. with free shipping. I would either have to install or find out how much an independent garage would charge. Looking for different options.
http://www.suspensionconnection.com/...tion/to=r.html
Does yours have the compressor or manual fill?

[3'senough]

Smitty, The last E in your tire size is rating so you should be good there.

[Smitty]

I just called a local concrete plant and they have a truck scale. It only has one platform. Can I just put the front wheels on, then the entire truck and finally the back wheels to get three separate readings, or do you need a scale with three platforms?

[clutch]

Smitty, I bought mine at NAPA and they were $420. The install was around $100. I have two seperate valves to fill them. I didn't get the air pump as I have lots of compressors already.

[3'senough]

I don't think you can get as accurate as with a CAT scale but here is what you could do to give you an idea and close range of what your truck is under. Provided the ground leading up to the platform is fairly level.

Without trailer:
1. Weigh your truck with full fuel and hitch. Take weight.
2. Put your front half of your truck over the scale with the rear axel off. Take weight
3. Put your rear half over the scale. Take weight.

With trailer:

repeat above steps and make sure the truck is setup the same as first readings then add the following steps.

4. Truck with both axels and no trailer on scale. take weight.
5. Truck with trailer on scale. Take weight. GVCW.
6. Trailer axels on scale. Take weight.


These type scales usually avg to the nearest 20# increment.

With all those readings you can get a pretty good sense of what types of loads your TV is under in the variuos areas. It's not going to be as accurate as a CAT reading but it's better than guessing and calculating just based on manufacturer posted weights.

You should load your camper like you would going out to get those numbers as true as possible.

[Smitty]

I am going to try and get the truck weighed next week. Cannot do anything with the trailer yet as it is not even built. What I can do is use what Bob suggested earlier in this post is to take the maximum weight of the trailer and use 20% of that for the pin weight. He used 15,950 @ 20% that would be 3,190 lbs pin weight. Once the truck is weighed I should be able to get some idea where I am at. I sure hope the figures are in my favor. Guess I'll go from there.

[Smitty]

OK, here’s the scoop. I went to the scale this morning and was surprised how accurate it was. I weighed myself this morning and when I took the full weight of the truck and then stepped out and read the adjusted weight without me and it was within a pound.
The GAWR rating for my truck off of the sticker on the door is 6010. The weight of the rear axel was 3180. This leaves 2830 left over. The GVW at the truck scale with passenger’s, full tank of fuel and the hitch mounted, weighed 7960. The GVWR for my truck is 9600. I stopped at the dealership where I bought my truck on the way home and had them look up the gear ratio. It is 3.73 with a 11 ½ rear axel. I asked them what the difference was between the 1-ton and ¾ ton and they told me only the springs. I don’t get it. In your honest opinion, should I try and cancel the order on the Pinnacle Fifth Wheel, as I cannot afford to take a hit on my truck to upgrade to a 1 ton as it’s only a year old with 17,000 miles on it. I do not want to own a Dually and I really like my truck. The trailer has not actually been put on the assembly line yet. I’ve put down a $5,000.00 deposit and the RV Dealership still has to call me back and confirm everything before they actually start the build. I’d really like to own this RV but do not want to put myself or wife at any risk while towing it. Again, thanks for your help.

[3'senough]

This is a personal choice and many guys out there pull fairly large rigs with 2500 series trucks across all brands. Most of the brands out there in comparing a SRW 2500 series vs 3500 series are exactly the same in build with the exception of the spring package and possibly brakes.

That leaves the rear. SRW are lighter overall vs a DRW.
This leaves you two options. Upgrade your springs to a 3500 series package. Your ride will suffer and firm up. Second option is adjustable air bags which will be adjustable and not in effect when your not towing giving you your stock ride which you seem happy with.
Try searching in other forums spring upgrades and such to see what hits. I am sure there are others like yourself who have increased their load capacity. I met a guy this summer who made his 1500 a 3500 in spring cap to haul around a slide in. It has been and can be done.
Are 4 tires safer than 2, yes. You could go up to a higher rated tire to increase your axel load capacity.
If after all that you still do not feel right about it see what the dealer can do for you. Or maybe start there and see if you have an out. I am thinking you don't due to the nature of dealers, but maybe you will have luck. Worst case maybe you can just shift to another model Jayco. They do buy all your equipment before building, so just because it isn't built yet or scheduled doesn't mean there aren't funds being laid out for materials to build it.

[Smitty]

Sorry this is a little long but I want to share with all who have advised me with where I am at with this situation. Below is the email that I sent to my RV Dealership after I had my tow vehicle weighed this morning.

As you can see the GVWR on my truck is 9600 LBS. I weighed the truck with a full tank of gas, the hitch and myself, it weighed 7960 LBS. That leaves only 1640 LBS for the pin weight of the trailer. The dry pin weight is 2665 LBS.

The GAWR rating for my rear axel on the sticker above is 6010 LBS. I weighed just the rear axel of my truck at the scale and it was 3180 LBS. This leaves 2830 LBS for a maximum pin weight. The dry pin weight of the Pinnacle is 2665 which only leaves 350 lbs of extra weight when the trailer is loaded, washer/dryer, gear, water, etc.

My hitch has a maximum trailer rating of 15,000 LBS with a pin of 3,500 LBS. I think I’m OK there but I am really, really concerned about the rest of the ratings. I sure do not want to put my wife nor myself in jeopardy towing this trailer with my truck. I have a lot of concerns here.

I did call up the place you told me about who upgrades trucks in your area and asked them about spring or air bag upgrades but no one has returned my call. I did find some air bags on my own and I think they would do the trick as far as leveling out the truck but it is the weight limits that concern me the most.

I want you to look these over and want to see what you come up with for me before you go any further on actually ordering this fifth wheel. Unless I feel I can be confident that my truck can pull it, I will not want to go further on it.

I don’t want you to think that I’ve got wet feet on this, as Mary and I really want to own this unit, but I put our safety first. Please put on hold until you or someone else can convince me that my tow vehicle will tow this unit safely.
Call me at your earliest convenience.
Thanks,
Mark

BELOW IS THEIR RESPONSE

"Being an RV dealer we can never recommend that someone pull something that is over the rating for their tow vehicle. We have people that do it but I cannot tell you that it is ok or safe. Has your Dodge dealer given you any insight into what the truck is actually rated for? The final decision has to be up to you and whether or not you feel comfortable pulling that camper with your truck. I can tell you what the camper weighs but I can not recommend that you pull it if the truck is not rated for it.

If these answers mean that we might not make the sale then that’s what it means. I am not going to try to push you guys into something by telling you that you will “be fine” just because other people have done it. I know that this is a big decision for you guys and I am here to help if I can."

I replied to him to hold for now until I can research this more. This is one of the best Dealerships that I've had a chance to work with.

[3'senough]

Definitely an honest dealer that seems to have the consumers best interest front and center. I would buy from him just based on his principles and honesty.

If you can get out of it and find something that you both love and feel very comfortable in towing then I would do it.

It's supposed to be fun and exciting while not giving you that uneasy feeling everytime you get in front of it.

Just curiuos, did they ask when you were orginally purchasing what you were pulling with? Type of potential hitch install or something else? That would be my first question to a buyer as a salesman. What are you going to pull this massive unit with? It just seems after the fact but they are giving you the wiggle room you need which is good.

[Smitty]

3'senough,
If you go to page 2 of this posting you can see the LKTS that was on their lot, hooked up to my tow truck. I had a concern at that time and the salesman and shopman told me I'd be fine. That's when they suggested maybe airbags or some of lift kit. They gave me the name of a local garage that they work with when someone requires tow modifications and that's the one I refer to in my post above. It was not until I got good information from this form that I became enlightened on all the different weight factor's that are involved with towing.
I too agree, that this venture is suppose to be fun and exciting and ever since I've been researching the towing factor, it's become dreadful. If I cannot find something that is lighter, I am not going forward.
Question? I did find an Eagle that has almost the identical layout but has a pin weight of 440 lbs. lighter and over all weight of 1,025 lbs. lighter. Do you think this would make a difference or just leave that one too as it is still over my total weight limits.

[Smitty]

Here’s an alternative Fifth Wheel (Eagle instead of Pinnacle)

Unload Vehicle Weight = 11,175 lbs
Dry Hitch Weight = 2,225 lbs.

My towing rate per Dodge Dealership is 14,500 lbs (2011 Towing charts shows 12,700 lbs)

My GAWR (sticker) = 6,010
My GAWR actual = 3,180 (from scale this morning)
GAWR Left = 2,830
Let’s say I add 3,000 lbs cargo to F.W. I now take 20% of that which = 600 lbs added to pin weight for now a total of (2,225 dry pin weight) + (600 add’l weight) = 2,825. I have 2,830 to work with, according to my calculation above, leaving 5 lbs. to spare. Close but within limits.

I am now well within weights on my hitch limits. 15,000 lbs towing, 3,500 lbs pin.

The only question I have now is the tow rating of my truck. I cannot seem to get an affirmative answer on this question. My Truck Dealership says 14,500 lbs. I looked it up on the link in the previous posts here and found a 2011 Towing Guide which rates it at 12,700 based on the 4x4, short box with a 3.73 gear ratio. I cannot find a tow rating chart for the 2010. I don’t know if that was because it was the new design for that year and maybe it’s a 2010 and ½. I have not idea there.

The bottom line is the Eagle seems to fit the bill better for my truck although I would still be over the 12,700 lb tow rating that the 2011 Towing Chart shows. The unloaded weight of the Eagle is 11,175 lbs and I am calculating 3,000 lbs of cargo, for a total now of 15,700 lbs. I would for sure plan on adding air bags if I went with this scenario. I did find out through this website that I have the “E” rated tires.
Any opinions on this one?
The Dealership emailed me back and said the Eagle would be a fantastic alternative although the 12 CU ft Refer is not available and it will only hold the combowasher/dryer.
Hey, I just have to say, thanks for putting up with all my questions!!

[Rustic Eagle]

Smitty,

Great effort on confirming your "actual" loaded TV weights..., it's amazing how many RV's are purchased under weight assumptions and/or mis-information that to many times creates a lot of disappointment when it's to late.

Originally Posted by Smitty

snip.....Question? I did find an Eagle that has almost the identical layout but has a pin weight of 440 lbs. lighter and over all weight of 1,025 lbs. lighter. Do you think this would make a difference or just leave that one too as it is still over my total weight limits.

Well, it all comes down to if you believe in using manufacturer's weight limits. I use weight limits because I have found that in the majority of the cases the end result is a well matched TV/FW (TT, HTT, etc.) where the TV will perform as it is designed to do under towing conditions. Some folks will say that manufacturer's weight limits are conservative, but I have yet to get anyone to define by how much, and I don't want to be the one to find out.

As I mentioned in an earlier reply; "Not knowing your loading habits, it is very possible your actual loaded FW weight could be less, thus resulting in a lower pin weight"......., because not everybody loads their FW to GVWR. Many FW's come with a generous CCC, only you know if you will use all of it. Just something to think about as you review your different FW options.

It is refreshing to hear that your RV dealership responded with some degree of caution in their reply, to many would just say "you will be fine" even when TV weight certificates say otherwise.

Bob

On Edit: Smitty, I just noticed your most recent post, I have yet to read it through.

[Rustic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Smitty

My GAWR (sticker) = 6,010
My GAWR actual = 3,180 (from scale this morning)
GAWR Left = 2,830
Let’s say I add 3,000 lbs cargo to F.W. I now take 20% of that which = 600 lbs added to pin weight for now a total of (2,225 dry pin weight) + (600 add’l weight) = 2,825. I have 2,830 to work with, according to my calculation above, leaving 5 lbs. to spare. Close but within limits.....snip

Smitty,

I believe you left out one weight limit, your TV's GVWR. In order to be within your TV's weight limits neither the GAWR or GVWR can be exceeded. This is your earlier GVWR findings: "As you can see the GVWR on my truck is 9600 LBS. I weighed the truck with a full tank of gas, the hitch and myself, it weighed 7960 LBS. That leaves only 1640 LBS for the pin weight of the trailer." It appears that your TV GVWR is your present hurdle, (2,825lbs - 1,640lbs) = 1,185lbs over the TV GVWR.

I don't tow FW's, so I don't know if using the low end of the 15% to 25% pin weight range would be recommended on the 36ft. Eagle 351MKTS ?? I know on the longer TT's we tend to push the loaded tongue weights toward the high end of 10%-15% range (TT recommendation) for better handling.

Just thinking out load......

I'm curious what ideas forum members that tow FW's can offer to work through the TV GVWR weight delta of 1,185lbs?

Smitty, please check my logic/math because I may have overlooked something.

Bob

[clutch]

Remember, weight you add to the trailer dosn't all go to the hitch. Weight behind the wheels remove weight from the hitch. Weight ahead of the wheels are shared by the wheels and hitch.

Wheel placement also affects hitch weight. Our Montana (32') had a dry hitch weight of 2200#. Longer Montana's had a lighter hitch weight because of over hang behind the wheels.

Slides behind the axles make the hitch lighter also.

[geo/kim Edgerton]

I think Rustic Eagle has nailed the weight factor that is still hanging. We went throught the same calculations when ordering a 2011 Jayco 5th wheel. Even though our truck has the 10,000lb GVWR we found that the largest unit we could handle (by the numbers) was a Jayco SuperLite 5th wheel. Settled for a 31.5 RLTS and even with that we are right at the max numbers.

[3'senough]

Here's what I found based on 2011 models which I do not think changed much. I thought the major change was from 2009-10. But based on the towing guide in dodge.com you have a 20,000 GCVW rating and 2300 payload for your rear ratio and Cummins package. Unlike some other manufaturer guides it does not differentiate between 5th vs conventional trailer ratings. Dodge just wants a 5th wheel hitch for any trailer over 10K according to their guide.

However, if you take the SRW 3500 tow ratings they jump to 3020# in your config with a 21,000 GCVW and 13,750 on the trailer max. So if truly the only difference is a spring package then I would say do the spring package and get your capacities up. Maybe even try and call Dodge direct and talk to an engineer to confirm any differences. Jayco offers talking to them so maybe Dodge would extend the same service to an owner.

Then you open up a few more options in your search and it gets you safely within your limits. If you did that mod I think you would still be at the limit for the current model but if you dropped to a 1800-2200 pin weight it would give you room to add the hitch and then load the trailer. Figure a trailer in 10,500-11,500 dry would give you 1500-2K of room to load it up.

Here's the link:http://www.ramtrucks.com/shared/pdf/..._Tow_Chart.pdf

[Rustic Eagle]

Originally Posted by 3'senough

snip......However, if you take the SRW 3500 tow ratings they jump to 3020# in your config with a 21,000 GCVW and 13,750 on the trailer max. So if truly the only difference is a spring package then I would say do the spring package and get your capacities up.....snip

3'senough,

Question.., according to Smitty his TV as it sits has a GVWR of 9,600lbs, what is the specified GVWR of the particular SRW 3500 your referencing?

Please correct if I'm wrong, but are you thinking that if Smitty up-graded to the SRW 3500 spring package the GVWR of the SRW 3500 comes along with it (assuming it's higher than 9,600lbs)?

Willing to learn something here.....

Bob

[3'senough]

Eagle,

I am in no way an expert on this nor do I have half the knowledge you posess in this department. I was mearly making an observation just purely based on the information provided. As for the laws and regulations pertaining to a change like this one should consult the local officials who oversee this. Maybe a good heavy truck mechanic shop in his local area can provide smitty with more direction on that.

My numbers were simply to assume that all factors between the 3500 and 2500 are equal with the exception of the springs. The referenced chart has the listed 3500 SRW GVWR at 10,100, but the payload @2950 and overall GCWR at 21,000. Again this assumes all factors are equal with the exception of the spring package. Drivetrain, rear, frame, tires and brakes.

Your thinking is correct from a vehicle rating standpoint, that without properly documenting a change it may not increase the total GCWR on the vehicle which becomes a DOT question. It may be worth looking into though.

[Smitty]

Thanks Guys,
I stopped by my Truck Dealership this morning and had them review the figures that I worked up on the Jayco Eagle. Rustic Eagle was right, I forgot to put in the figures for the GVWR. If I use the 9600 GVWR on my truck and subtract the total pin weight that I worked up (adding 600 lbs. (20% for an estimated 3,000 lbs extra cargo weight) to the dry hitch weight of 2,225 lbs that totals 2,825 lbs for an adjusted pin weight. I then subtract that from the 9,600 plus the actual weight of my truck (at scales yesterday) of 7,960 that only leaves me 1,640 for additional weight to carry in my truck. Although I'm OK with the GAWR, I still have the GVWR to work with, which I would now be over by 1,640 lbs. It's hard to believe by the size of my truck that it can only handle an additional 1,640 lbs. The engine is so big, they had to raise the hood to accomadate it. That's the part that stumps me, but it is what it is. I'm now trying to come up with a solution to increase the GVWR ratio safely. Two person's have already told me that air bags would be my solution. At this point, I don't really know what to think. Do I just add the air bags and say, "oh well, other Rver's tow this way" and just hang it up. I know one thing for sure, the first thing a salesman should do at a RV Dealership is ask, "what are you going to tow with?" Then go out and look at the tags on the vehicle and workup all three figures that affect your towing abilities. GVWR, GAWR and the actual tow rating. My heads swimming from all of the abbreviations but it is all very, very interesting. My wife is even getting in on it. We are going up on Saturday to visit the Dealership. I let them know that the Pinnacle is out of the question for sure. There's no way I will tow that monster with my truck.