Honda Pilot and Jayco x17z

[wmoses]

Originally Posted by aflyfishr

I have not yet pulled with my 2013, 4WD Pilot but do intend to pull the pending delivery of our 2014 X17A. My owners manual states that Honda does not recommend using a weight distribution hitch.

I quote the book "A weight distribution hitch is not recommended for your vehicle. An improperly adjusted weight distribution hitch may reduce handling, stability, and braking performance". This surprised me, but not my dealer who did strongly recommend an anti sway device.

I'm curious to learn if this is a recent statement from honda and if others here pull without a wdh and how they rate the experience. Our first pull will be about 250 miles from the dealership with a Reese friction anti sway device but without a wdh. I'm hoping it to be a comfortable, safe drive.

Can't comment on the chronology of the Honda recommendation (or lack thereof) but I can comment thus.

When I had my CUV (FWD Santa Fe with the 3.3L V6 / 3500 tow capacity) i installed the WDH because I wanted to restore the Santa Fe to a level attitude - the job of the WDH. It boggles my mind that Honda would not recommend using a WDH on such a short wheelbase vehicle - makes zero sense. As does impact on braking performance - garbage! If anything it will improve braking since it will restore load to the front axle which, for the tow vehicle, provides 70% of braking effort.

When I had my X17Z weighed this is what came out - total weight 3800# and hitch weight 600#. Now tell me, do you think you need a WDH? My current tow vehicle with its factory hitch is limited to 600# but 1100# with a WDH. In other words, Honda is bordering on irresponsible making a non-recommendation as they are, assuming that one will improperly adjust the WDH. It would be better to state what the capacities are given a properly distributed WDH, and caution that an improperly adjusted WDH could cause whatever problems they choose to state (directional instability for example).

Were I in your shoes and had to use the Pilot I would get a WDH. Personally, I would not use a Pilot, but that is a different discussion. Put it this way, after towing the new trailer home from the dealer my mind was made up and the TV in my signature was the result.

Payload is your limiting factor, especially if not using a WDH.

Originally Posted by aflyfishr

The 2013 4WD pilot with two passengers is rated to tow 4500 lbs with 450 lbs of tongue weight. Jayco puts the X17A at 2795 lbs dry with 360 lbs at the tongue. I calculate actual weight will be around 3700 lbs with 370 at the ball. Which puts me at 82% of maximums recommended. As an engineer, I don't like to push the envelope so mathematically I'm expecting good results. We shall see.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Engineer here as well. The rule of thumb for horizontal pulling capacity is 80% of the TV capacity, or 3600# so you are not far off there (have to leave margin for wind and hills, etc.) but the 3600# has to be weighed weights. Spec weights are worth the paper they are written on - they are just gross approximations. As mentioned before, payload on the Pilot will be your limiting factor. Even if your RV weighed 3600# camping-ready, your tongue weight should be 12% (or more) to counteract sway. That means you need at least 432# on the hitch (remember my weighed weight above?) - will the Pilot handle this with a full tank of fuel, people, animals if any, and cargo?

Getting close to the limits usually means that payload is the killer.

[s1njin]

I swapped my Honda Ridgeline out for a Ford F-150 primarily b/c of Honda's stance on the WDH. I didn't want to be in a situation where I got in a accident and have my insurance company leave me on a island because the manual states what it does about the WDH. I can just see it now - "Sir your manual advises against using a WDH. We can see from the accident report that you used one. We're not going to cover this as you are going against the guidelines set in your owners manual. Sorry, have a nice day".

No thanks.

Plus, I just wanted something more substantial in front of my camper. Something with more authority to brake, something with more authority to pull. Plus my F-150 only gets 2 mpg worse than my Ridgeline so I didn't really care about that.

I got the 5.0 V8 version - too many weird things going on w/ the EcoBoosts.

[BluJay]

Originally Posted by jesway

IS anyone pulling the X17Z with a Honda Pilot? I am looking at one and was wondering if anyone has any issues. It fits all the parameters in the manual but fiugred I would ask.


Also if anyone owns the Z17Z and can share there happiness and dissatisfactions with the trailer I would apperciate your thoughts and opinions.


jamie

We would have preferred to use a Pilot as TV for our X17Z, but our '13 Toyota Highlander (FWD not 4WD) is a better setup for towing using a WD hitch...and its rated at 5,000 lbs. I get 27 mpg without the trailer and about 11-12 with.

[Debsshopper]

My 4 x 4 Pilot did great on mini hills and flat lands but lost alot of tow capacity going over the Sierras..Same with my 2002 Ranger 4 x 4. Pulled it like nothing was back there, until I hit the steeps!
Wanted more power going up the hills cause I just could not see working my vehicles that hard so I sold the Ranger/ traded the Pilot for an F150..Love the decire feeling of moving forward and being able to go more then 25 MPH over the steeps.

Same gas mileage as both of the above vehicles- About 10 miles per gallon

[charles_cincy]

Originally Posted by aflyfishr

I quote the book "A weight distribution hitch is not recommended for your vehicle. An improperly adjusted weight distribution hitch may reduce handling, stability, and braking performance".

I'm curious to learn if this is a recent statement from honda and if others here pull without a wdh and how they rate the experience. Our first pull will be about 250 miles from the dealership with a Reese friction anti sway device but without a wdh. I'm hoping it to be a comfortable, safe drive.

Not new, my 2006 Ridgeline manual has the same statement.

Consensus on the Ridgeline forums is that basically WDH aren't used in Japan and that Honda didn't want to bother so the lawyers had them add that statement. Note that it doesn't say don't use a properly adjusted one

Having pulled my 23B with and without a WDH, I can say that it's much better with one than without it. Most of the users on the ridgeline forums pulling heavy trailers use one.

[charles_cincy]

Originally Posted by wmoses

Engineer here as well. The rule of thumb for horizontal pulling capacity is 80% of the TV capacity,

An actual automotive engineer? As I don't buy the above.

What would buy is that Honda engineered the vehicle to tow 5625# and then published an 80% limit of 4500#. Every engineer I know over engineers things. Including myself as a software engineer. But I do know some mechanical / materials engineers also

I can't see the lawyers allowing for anything less. My truck broke in half doing 95 on the interstate pulling 120% of it's rated capacity...well you're SOL. But if it brakes in half towing 99% of published capacity well then my lawyers will have a field day.

Lastly, Honda's followed the SAE standard, known as J2807 - “Performance Requirements for Determining Tow-Vehicle Gross Combination Weight Rating and Trailer Weight Rating,” for a long time. Unlike Ford, Chevy, Dodge, and Toyota. Unlike the others, the tow ratings for Honda's vehicles haven't been lowered once the new standard was adopted.

[DocBrown]

I'm not sure about any of that. Engineers may over engineer things, but the pencil pushers make them scale it back in production to save a few pennies. Car production is a far different world from software.

I can tell you from personal experience that towing any travel trailer at close to your rated capacity is fine, and it'll pull, and it's perfectly safe. Some will say "it tows like a dream". That statement is usually made by folks who have never towed with reserve capacity. I've knowingly towed two different setups at close to capacity. It was safe, it worked fine, but it was not "towing like a dream". It pushed both vehicles to their limits. And that's why the limits are set. In both instances we decided we wanted to drive more than a few hours and do some mountains.

What I can also tell you is that it is a night and day difference to tow a trailer with a 20% or better margin. Far easier on the TV, far more relaxing. And I can tow in mountains.

Please bear in mind, I'm not bashing your use of a Ridgeline. Choice of TV is often dictated by circumstances, which is where I was twice. I'm just pointing out that there is a lot of wisdom in leaving a healthy margin between your capacities and actual weight towed.

[bucko]

I just don't get it. If folks come to a realization that their TV is straining in towing a TT, then why would they continue? In my case, my wife of 35 years is much too important to me to risk towing something that my TV is not supposed to tow (weight wise). If I "strain" at hills, then that is telling you something; don't!


Not to mention the dangers you can and are imposing on those you share the roads with. We have lots of lawyers chasing ambulances these days.

[norty1]

Many don't consider the other side of the coin, which is just as important. If you are approaching or over the tow limits, you can be sure that the stopping power is at or over it's limits.

Lives are at stake and some of them are in the vehicle with you. Don't take chances just to make a point!

[gregveal]

I am a definite newbie (to RVs and towing and hitches - and posting in a forum! So hopefully, I'm doing this right.)

I just bought (but haven't hitched up yet) a 2015 X17Z and will be towing with a 2014 Honda Pilot V6 4WD. The guy I bought it from suggests I get a Pro Series 49901 Complete Weight Distribution Kit. I guess this is mainly about sway control to reduce fishtailing. I don't have a clue, so I looked it up. It comes with a 2-5/16 ball. I'm pretty sure the X17Z takes a 2" ball.

Does anyone know (I'll bet many of you do), is there a way to adapt this thing? An alternative piece of gear? Do I need it at all?

I don't even understand where it goes. Is part of it on the trailer and the ball on the car? I have so much to learn before I pick the trailer up this Thursday. HELP PLEASE!

[DocBrown]

Originally Posted by gregveal

I am a definite newbie (to RVs and towing and hitches - and posting in a forum! So hopefully, I'm doing this right.)

I just bought (but haven't hitched up yet) a 2015 X17Z and will be towing with a 2014 Honda Pilot V6 4WD. The guy I bought it from suggests I get a Pro Series 49901 Complete Weight Distribution Kit. I guess this is mainly about sway control to reduce fishtailing. I don't have a clue, so I looked it up. It comes with a 2-5/16 ball. I'm pretty sure the X17Z takes a 2" ball.

Does anyone know (I'll bet many of you do), is there a way to adapt this thing? An alternative piece of gear? Do I need it at all?

I don't even understand where it goes. Is part of it on the trailer and the ball on the car? I have so much to learn before I pick the trailer up this Thursday. HELP PLEASE!

It's also about putting weight back on the front wheels to restore steering control so you can safely steer your vehicle.

You say "the guy you bought it from"? Is this a private sale or a dealer? We can explain all of this to you, however in the interest of time I suggest you find a professional to set this up for you. The installer will need the trailer to set it up as there is a fair amount of adjustment to be made once all the parts are installed.

[Kim Gass]

Check your owners manual.. It probably advises against WDH cause an improperly adjusted one can cause a lot of damage to these unibody frames

[gregveal]

Thanks, Kim!
I checked he manual and it recommends sway control but says nothing about weight distribution.

[gregveal]

Thanks, Chuck!
Yes, it was a private sale. I am not at all opposed to letting a pro do the job. Any hints on how you find an installer?

[gregveal]

So, I have been doing more internet research and came across this thread...
in a popupexplorer forum. There's a lot of agreement there on an issue. See excerpts here...
"we ... moved into a Hybrid X17z for various reasons. However, in discussing the x17z with various forum members here the issue of extremely limited CCC was brought up a few times.
Having become well versed in what CCC is, payload capacity of a TV, tongue weight, axle weight, etc. I began to look towards getting a proper WDH to tow the camper more safely and comfortably (the Honda won't allow for a WDH). Well, a WDH throws some weight around to the truck and a marginal weight to the axle on the trailer. No big deal right?
Well, for this one it could very well be. Being the responsible owner/tower that I am trying to be I decided to get on my back and look at the axle. Yep, there is the sticker I'm looking for. Huh? 3000 pounds Max.
Okay, so I have a trailer with a MAX weight of 3500 pounds and a sticker weight of 3046. Add the battery and a full tank of hot water only and I'm closer to 3146. I knew this math before I purchased, however in my ignorant wisdom I had assumed that Jayco would have engineered enough tolerance in their trailer to be able to handle whatever weight a WDH would throw to the rear axle if loaded to max capacity. I was remarkably incorrect in this regard. Given the axle weight rating they are pretty much making me put all the rest of the weight towards the front/tongue in order to give the axle the breathing room it needs. 3500 pounds gives me between 350 and 525 pounds on the tongue (10%-15%). You can only put 500 max on the ball sans WDH, so a WDH is necessary for many reasons. If I run the trailer Max with a WDH, I in all likelihood will exceed my trailer's axle rating. Even if I don't, I'll be running that axle around 99% of its capacity. All the time. Given the exceptionally limited CCC of the trailer to begin with, its not like I have a great deal of latitude in packing the trailer up so its a given it will be running max all the time.
I don't need to be a engineer to know that running something at max capacity all the time is not good for the longevity or durability of whatever it is you're maxing out."

The consensus seemed to be that camper manufacturers (eg Jayco) irresponsibly saw a market for mini-SUV owners and filled it.

OK, so this was posted in 2012. Any reason to believe anything's changed?

[Kim Gass]

We have a 2012 Ridgeline and I think it is on the same frame as the Pilot. Our unit weighs about as much as yours. We do not use a WDH but do use sway control.
Our manual says not to use a WDH; supposedly because they need to be adjusted quite precisely and a badly adjusted WDH is more dangerous than none at all.

[Redslider]

A Ridgeline or Pilot are completely different from conventional trucks with regards to drive train layout. Both are essentially front wheel drive vehicles with the entire drive train over the front wheels. It really isn't necessary to restore weight to the front of the vehicle when towing. A typical front wheel drive vehicle has 60% of its weight over the front wheels, adding 500 lbs. of tongue weight is no different than carrying 500 pounds of cargo in the bed or storage area. Look at the TFL Truck website and watch them tow a 5000 lb. trailer without wdh. Funny how the same people that recommend your ignore the manufacturers recommendations on some issues have a fit if you ignore the recommended maximum weight ratings.

[dhinkle57]

We pulled our 23b for four seasons with a 07 Ridgeline and had no problems. If I remember right the Ridgeline didn't get to max torque till 4700 RPM. We would still have it but thought we needed more payload for long trips when we retire.

[DocBrown]

Originally Posted by Redslider

A Ridgeline or Pilot are completely different from conventional trucks with regards to drive train layout. Both are essentially front wheel drive vehicles with the entire drive train over the front wheels. It really isn't necessary to restore weight to the front of the vehicle when towing. A typical front wheel drive vehicle has 60% of its weight over the front wheels, adding 500 lbs. of tongue weight is no different than carrying 500 pounds of cargo in the bed or storage area. Look at the TFL Truck website and watch them tow a 5000 lb. trailer without wdh. Funny how the same people that recommend your ignore the manufacturers recommendations on some issues have a fit if you ignore the recommended maximum weight ratings.

This has nothing to do with FWD vs. RWD. All that is, is the weight over the drive wheels. This is about suspension and how the tongue weight affects the steering control. If 500# raises the front end even 1/2 inch you are taking weight off the wheels and losing some amount of steering control. This is simple physics. It doesn't matter if the weight is cargo or a trailer tongue. When you don't have enough weight on the front you may think all is well. That is until you tow in a 35 mph cross wind. Then you'll know that you need a WDH.

What you are seeing on TFL are trucks with much stiffer suspensions, you are comparing apples to oranges. The soft suspension on a Pilot, Ridgeline, or pretty much any small truck or SUV will squat in the rear enough with 500# to take weight off the front end. Maybe not a lot, but it is happening.

That's not to say these vehicles can't be used to tow a trailer within their capacities. It just means that for safety sake, anything that takes weight off the front needs a WDH. I have a 1/2 ton full size pickup and my tongue weight is about 600#. I use a WDH. No way would I tow without it.

[Kim Gass]

Geez, with a 60 mph crosswind and no WDH and no sway and 40,000 miles on the TT we should be dead.. Four cross country trips.. And one panic stop that was fine when someone stopped and backed up on 1-10 in the passing lane.