X17Z appropriate for our vehicle? 16XRB?

[DistortConform]

Hello all!

My family has been long time Jayco owners, with my first memories of camping starting in a 1986 Jayco 1206, that was eventually handed down to me and my brother, and later was destroyed in a windstorm. My wife and I are finally in the position to buy a new camper to get back into weekend trips and such, and was hoping you could help.

We have a 2017 Jeep Cherokee Latitude 4x4 (4500lbs towing, 450lbs tongue). We recently fell in love with the 2017 X17Z (3500 GVWR, 405lbs tongue) at a local camper show, so much so that after talking with the sales guy and coming back the next day we started the purchasing process. Luckily, as of right now we are not locked into anything (aside from a credit report pull), but do have a camper waiting for us at the lot.

I (luckily?) started searching for information about this camper and how to deal with the small payload capacity, when I ran across a few different threads about the tongue weight on this trailer being a problem. The more I read, the more my heart sank. In the interest of safety and not destroying a new camper and vehicle, I wanted to reach out and see what you thought. Most of the info regarding the problems with out-of-control tongue weights (600lbs??) seem to be from 3 years ago, and from my limited searching it seems that there have been some changes on Jayco's part (dry tongue weight includes propane now, lighter a-frame) since around 2013-2014, so I wasn't sure if this was still as big a problem as it use to be.

The dealer told me that while I would be right around max at the tongue weight of the vehicle, it should be fine. He said that because of the length of the frame cargo in the trailer only adds 10% to the tongue weight, so a max of 400lbs inside would only increase it 40lbs. He also said the spare could be relocated to the back, also saving weight. I asked about the weight of a weight distributing hitch and the automatic jack (and possibly battery, wherever that is), and he didn't seem to concerned about it, citing that the hitch would pay for itself. From all of the reading and research I have done, this answer does not seem 100% true.

Back on the hunt, I stumbled across the 2017 16XRB, and it seemed like a very viable option with this vehicle (3500 GVWR, 280 dry hitch, more cargo capacity) and very similar to the X17Z. However, I cannot find any for sale at any of our local dealers. My wife is bummed about the couch change, and the lack of oven, no outside shower, and the unavailability of it, potentially making our camping season further into the future. It seems to be well designed to be nearly equivalent inside, just a little more compact? Would this also suffer from the tongue weight problems?

So, what are peoples experiences with these trailers, especially the newer ones? Am i dreaming that I can make the X17Z work with our vehicle? Are there potential issues with the 16XRB also, is the gross hitch weight much higher than listed once the "options" are added? We never plan to carry water with us, and are use to packing a pop-up so we usually pack light anyway.

Please help!

[bankr63]

Welcome to JOF!

I would check out the 16XRB in person before laying down any money on one. It is a Jay Feather 7 model, meaning it is a foot narrower than the regular Jay Feather. You might find the bunks a bit tight if you are at all tall as you lose most of that foot off the bunk length.

Tongue weight can be adjusted a bit by watching where you load your gear, that's why the dealer suggested moving the spare to the back. Gear loaded between the axle and hitch will add weight to both, gear far enough behind the axle can actually reduce tongue weight. BUT on both of these units, your externally accessed storage is under the front couch/j-steel, and a fair bit of storage is located under the dinette. You will probably find either one loads up on the tongue weight pretty quick. We have the big brother X19H and tend to load a fair bit of tall gear into the shower (our camp chairs and tables), and keep a few heavier items at the back, just inside the door during transit (like the BBQ and Camp Stove) to compensate for the tongue heavy design. Keeps us well withing our TV payload capacity.

With careful planning either one should be able to be configured to within the tow parameters of your TV. You will find yourself pretty close to the limit of your vehicle, and you may find this uncomfortable. I am in the same situation with my rig, and I am very comfortable with it; YMMV.

[hboy]

My thoughts when reading your post:

Some sales/dealers will always say "you should be ok". There is no science, facts, physics, etc. to back that statement up. These are opinions. I would only accept these opinions from other users of your tow vehicle and similar trailers.


If that trailer has a gross weight capacity of 3500lbs, then you want a hitch weight of about 450-550'ish. The less tongue weight you have, the worse your towing experience could be (ie; sway). If we say 10%-15% trailer weight on the hitch is acceptable, I would not want to trim weight to (like move the spare tire) to keep the tongue weight down. Low tongue weight = trouble.

Keep in mind that the weight of the hitch is all part of your calculations. Yes, the hitch weight will end up being significantly higher than the dry hitch weight posted on the web site. Calculate the additional weight of your weight distribution hitch, rv battery, lp gas tank. These are some of the factors that will increase the weight on your hitch more significantly than say a fridge full of food.

In the end, the tow experience is subjective. What one driver feels comfortable with, another would be very uncomfortable. Typically you find this out when towing at or near the vehicle limits.

[sennister]

I don't know much about these smaller Jeeps or Jeep in general but I am assuming it has a Class III hitch. You mentioned the GVWR for the campers you are looking at as well as the tongue weight and max towing weight. There are a few more numbers you may need to look for. They may be located on data plates along the edge of the doors or around the door frame.

For instance on my Yukon Denali we had the following ratings that I had to look at.
Truck:
Max Payload 1622
GVWR 7300
Max Towing 8100
GCWR 14,000

Trailer:
Jayco Jay Feather BH25
Hitch (dry) 640
GVWR 6750

Max payload is where we were getting hit a lot of times. While I can have a hitch weight of 600# because I use a WD Hitch that converts my Class III internal hitch to a Class IV external hitch. Now I can run up to 1000lbs with the bars I have. However that 1000lbs goes against my cargo capacity. So if I have a tongue weight of 1000# + 100# for the WD hitch I am down to 500# for passengers and stuff in the truck. The max towing rating wasn't an issue because the GVWR for the trailer we have is only 6750 where I can tow 8100 but when you factor in 10-15% of that needs to be on the tongue I was blowing past my cargo capacity if I went with a camper that could come in around 7000 or more on the GVWR. Another number to look for is GCVW. This is a max combined weight of the truck, everything in the truck as well as the weight of the trailer and everything in that. In my case I won't hit the 14,000# but it is another number to look at. If I was looking at a trailer that was pushing the 8100# it would be an issue.

As others mentioned you can play around with tongue weight a little bit but really watch to make sure you are maintaining 10% of the trailer weight. It is a safety issue. Sometimes you can get away with pushing the numbers a bit depending on how far you are going, weather conditions, traffic conditions and how hilly things are. The more time you spend around semis, mountains, strong winds and interstates you will be better off staying closer to 15% than 10. Every time you go out it will be like trying to balance a teeter totter. It is pretty easy to measure the tongue weight but to determine if you are over the 10% you need to know the trailer weight as well which is harder to check at home.

I think this is where the weight stuff is really confusing for people. There are so many different numbers to factor in and so many variables. Heck for all I know I could have it all wrong but this is what I have read to look at. You have to look at how shifting weight impacts other numbers. Like getting around the max hitch weight by going with a Class IV WD hitch only to blow through the cargo capacity before you get a trailer remotely close to the max towing weight. Also there is the fact that the vehicle manufacturers seem to build a vehicle with ratings that are impossible to ever hit because there is another number that you might miss that is going to impact you first. It is like that 8100# that I can tow. I don't know how I could ever pull that much. Not if I wanted something with a remotely safe tongue weight. Or maybe I have to rip out all the seats and drive the truck alone.

[rgeese]

I went through the same concerns last fall when I bought my X17Z. I have a 2006 Dodge Dakota V6 3.5L pickup with a 4200 (I think) towing capacity, and just the stock hitch. I have been pulling a large popup with no problems, with the exception of a little sway. After a lot of self-applied agony, I finally pulled the trigger on the X17Z, and have been pleasantly surprised with how it pulls. The only "problem" is the lack of power with the 6 Cyl. engine. It is adequate, but nothing to brag about. I just get in the right-hand lane on hills and travel with the truckers! The sales people tried to sell me a fancy $500 hitch, but the technician that checked me out on the camper secretly told me that I would be OK without it. And he was right. And much to my surprise, there is no sway. I'm considering upgrading the truck just because of the power issue and its age, but other than that I am happy with my purchase. Love the X17Z!

[Isaacs]

I have a 17c, pretty much the same trailer I presume. I used to pull it with a Hyundai Santa Fe, 3500 lbs, 350 tongue (I think). I was maxed out. I used to remove the propane tank and other heavy things like the table and put them into my pickup truck which was busy pulling a boat.

The heavy tongue was a big problem and it dragged the back of the SUV down quite a bit even though I put nothing into the back of it. You will find that with these small single axle trailers the tongue weight quickly increases as the tongue drops and the trailer tilts forward. Air bags provided some relief as the Santa Fe would not tolerate a weight distribution hitch. Make sure your trailer is level with your TV and not tilted forward when you are hooked up. Hopefully your TV has better springs than the Santa Fe did.

Another problem I had was wind resistance. These things are short, tall, and wide which creates a lot of drag. My five speed transmission seldom got out of third gear on our 540 mile round trip to our favorite campground.

I have to admit, the Santa Fe was a tough little guy, but I ultimately replaced it with a car and bought a second pickup truck--problem solved!

Perhaps the dealer would let you hook up to it and take it for a test pull?

[Rustic Eagle]

Originally Posted by sennister

snip........ While I can have a hitch weight of 600# because I use a WD Hitch that converts my Class III internal hitch to a Class IV external hitch......snip

For clarification it should be noted that the above statement isn't implying that a Class III receiver hitch will have the same weight ratings as a Class IV receiver hitch because a WDH was utilized. It's just that a Class III receiver rating in weight distribution mode is the same as a Class IV receiver rating in weight carrying mode. Please note:

Class III Receiver Hitch: Weight Carrying mode has a 600lb maximum, and Weight Distribution mode (using WDH) has a 1,000lb maximum.

Class IV Receiver Hitch: Weight Carrying mode has a 1,000lb maximum, and Weight Distribution mode (using WDH) has a 1,400lb maximum.

Reference Source: https://www.reese-hitches.com/learni...towing-classes

Bob

[sennister]

Originally Posted by Rustic Eagle

For clarification it should be noted that the above statement isn't implying that a Class III receiver hitch can have the same weight ratings as a Class IV receiver hitch because a WDH was utilized. Please note:

Class III Receiver Hitch: Weight Carrying mode has a 600lb maximum, and Weight Distribution mode (using WDH) has a 1,000lb maximum.

Class IV Receiver Hitch: Weight Carrying mode has a 1,000lb maximum, and Weight Distribution mode (using WDH) has a 1,400lb maximum.

Reference Source: https://www.reese-hitches.com/learni...towing-classes

Bob

Yes. Totally agree. I left that part out so thanks for the additional info. My Yukon's hitch can support 600lbs alone or 1000lbs with my WD hitch.

This is why I went with a trailer no more than 6750 GVWR. 15% of 6750 is 1012.5 lbs for a worst case load. I also went with the 1000lbs spring bars on the Blue Ox WD Hitch.

I am shocked with what manufacturers and dealers claim are 1/2 ton towable. Though some newer pickups can tow more than a SUV.

Before going to the RV show I ran the numbers and would walk up to the dataplate to see actual empty weight from the factory as equipped, cargo capacity and GVWR. I kept that 6750 magic number or less in my head. It was nice to see the Jay Feather 25BH right at that number as it had everything we wanted. Which was mainly the outdoor kitchen and bunkhouse.

We are not in the mountains and 95% of the camping is 2 to 3 night trips a short 30 ish miles from home. So I was fine getting closer to the limits.

Originally Posted by Rustic Eagle

For clarification it should be noted that the above statement isn't implying that a Class III receiver hitch can have the same weight ratings as a Class IV receiver hitch because a WDH was utilized. Please note:

Class III Receiver Hitch: Weight Carrying mode has a 600lb maximum, and Weight Distribution mode (using WDH) has a 1,000lb maximum.

Class IV Receiver Hitch: Weight Carrying mode has a 1,000lb maximum, and Weight Distribution mode (using WDH) has a 1,400lb maximum.

Reference Source: https://www.reese-hitches.com/learni...towing-classes

Bob

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[DistortConform]

Thank you for all of the comments. It's nice to have a few different opinions and experiences from seasoned TT owners. With our old popup I never really needed to worry to much as i had been towing it since I could first drive 17 years ago (my dad insisted on teaching me, as that trailer was so low weight it bounced all over the road).

I've checked the numbers on the Cherokee (what's listed at least), and details are sparse, and seem to conflict a bit depending on where you look.

GVWR = 5500lbs
Max Tow/Tongue (Vehicle itself) = 4500lbs/450lbs
Max Tow/Tongue (Hitch rating Class III) = 5000lbs/500lbs (From Jeep.com, no WDH ratings I can find, but a WDH hitch is required for more than 2000lbs towing according to the manual)
Each axel GAWR = 2805lbs
Occupants and Cargo Capacity = 1000lbs

I have to verify still on a scale, but the curb weight weighs in around 4000lbs according to the info I've seen. So with one calculation it seems that the GVWR-Curbweight leaves around 1500lbs, so with a hitch weight at 450lb it should leave around 1000lbs for occupants and cargo. The manual however states that the hitch weight comes from the cargo limit, which would mean 550lbs left for occupants and cargo, so there is a bit of discrepancy there.

We are going to a local dealership to view a similar camper to the 16XRB (per bankr63), but the size of the beds and the width of the camper are almost exactly that of our popup, so I don't anticipate a huge problem there. We have one reserved at a dealership 400 miles away, so if we go that route my first TT towing experience will be a relatively flat 7 hour interstate run (Oklahoma City to Omaha).

The sticker specs on the trailer come to 3750lbs GVWR, 3500lbs GAWR, and a weight with propane at 2999lbs. The max cargo limit is 750lbs, which seems considerably more than the X17Z. Hitch weight on Jayco's site is 280lb dry, but more realistically i am figuring 350lbs with battery and propane. It seems that with the 16XRB we would have more loading options, being able to store more in the front storage areas and camper itself and not having to worry as much about trying to counteract the hitch weight (we might need to load more in the front to get a good ratio). The smaller frontal area I believe will also be a benefit when pulling it. 95% of the time we are going to camp within 30 miles of our house, but we want the option to go further when we can, and be able to make it through some of the hills and higher elevation areas without burning the car out (it is just me and my wife and our little 20lb dog).

I am going today to pull the sticker and have the dealer measure the current tongue weight of the X17Z, and play a little bit with moving the spare and acting as "cargo" by walking to the front and back of the trailer to see what a more realistic tongue weight would look like. Obviously more space and comfort is better, but if the added tongue weight and limited cargo capacity are close to what I've seen, it seems the responsible choice is to go with the 16XRB.

If you can think of anything else I am missing right now, please let me know. I have spent almost the last full week reading forums, running different calculations, speaking to salesmen and towers, and I am hoping I am reaching the end of this part of the journey and can get to camping! Granted, I've learned a ton, which has been great, but each snippet also seems to add another variable to the whole equation. Some people think I have been overthinking it (probably a little, I probably could have bought the X17Z and never even known there was a problem had I not looked at the numbers, since the sales guys and jayco rep said it's fine), but I just really want to make sure the considerable investment we are making will last for as long as possible, and be as safe as possible. Thanks again!

[secal48]

We used to have an x17z and pulled it with both a Jeep Liberty and later a grand Cherokee. Just be careful of how you load and drive and it should be good. You didn't mention how many of you go, for us it was just the 2 of us and our dog and we had plenty of unused storage space.

[eng45ine]

Ricks RV Center in Joliet, IL has a 16XRB, MSRP is $20,704

[DistortConform]

We ended up going with the 16XRB from Oklahoma. After seeing the camper and the options in person, the only real sacrifice we feel we were making was the J-Steel sofa and a small amount of movement room, and the added capacity and decreased hitch worry made up for it.

I got a good test of towing it Sunday as we went from Oklahoma City to Omaha. The Jeep had plenty of power to pull it, even through the strong winds we encountered on I-35. There were a couple of "white knuckle" moments, but only because I was still getting use to the feeling of having a large object behind me catching every gust of wind, and not because we were in any real danger (they did a good job with the WDH and we encountered no real sway at all). It actually became pretty natural once my nerves finally calmed. It was a long journey, but once I got it parked in the driveway, I felt good about our decisions on car and camper.

Our final equipment list:
TV - 2017 Jeep Cherokee Latitude w/ 3.2L V6 and factory tow (4500#)
TT - 2017 Jayco Jay Feather 7 16XRB
WDH - Fastway E2 Roundbar Hitch
BC - Tekonsha Prodigy RF

Once again, thank you to everyone that contributed to this! I look forward to being part of the community.

[secal48]

Looking good. Have fun this summer.

[FIREBUGMAN]

From one 16XRB owner to another, you're gonna love it!!

[Chrismc]

We towed our 16XRB with a Jeep Cherokee (tow package - #4500) last year and had no issues. I was a first-time tower so it took some getting used to, like the OP, but after a couple of trips we were fine.

We've actually changed our TV to an F150 EB, but that's because we're thinking of upgrading the hybrid in a couple of years anyway and didn't want to pay for 2 changes together. If we were sticking with the 16XRB long-term then we'd probably have stuck with the Jeep too.