2006 Jayco class C Heater - Page 2

Insane938 · 01-15-2023, 10:16 AM

I have a 2006 Greyhawk 31SS. It DOES have a remote that operates both the AC and the heater. The origional installation was this way. My remote has up/down buttons to choose heat/AC fan speed etc and temp and on off. You might not have the origional remote, or the ac might have been changed, and the heater not wired into the new wiring loom
I changed mine, and did the rewiring myself. Works fine

Insane938 · 01-15-2023, 10:24 AM

Just a quick thought, the Furnace setting only requires 12V not 120. You do not have to chande the wiring or put in a different thermostat to run the furnace when not plugged in

bucko · 01-15-2023, 05:43 PM

Thanks for that info Insane938. I'm only considering going the way of a seperate remote for heat, as the remote controlled A/C unit I have (Carrier) is no longer made/supported, so if it were to fail in the future, I cannot get serviceable parts for it, including the control board that operates via the remote, or by the buttons on the inside A/C ceiling mount. I'd have to replace the entire unit. I'd go the route of an A/C ceiling unit only; no heat pump or remote control to operate the furnace.

I noticed on a thermostat I bought to use with just the propane heater (incase the control panel fails on the A/C unit), it says to set the "anticipator" value which can be .2 to 1.2 amps (current rating of furnace). It says to check the furnace unit for rating, but I could not find anything in its install manual about this. Seeing as how its a 12V propane furnace, is there a standard setting for this? Also mentions this sets shorter or longer heating cycles.

craigav · 01-15-2023, 08:32 PM

Which thermostat did you purchase? I haven't seen any with an anticipator that would work without 24v (typical house\business thermostat control voltage). Not that it matter as you don't need or really want an anticipator for an RV furnace. Anticipators are needed more so for steam and hot water heating systems where the heater continues to put out heat for a while after the thermostat has sent the off signal, the anticipator anticipates this will happen and is used to shut off the heat prior to reaching the setpoint.

I don't think the anticipator will work on 12v but it doesn't need to do so as an RV furnace doesn't run very long at all after the thermostat sends the off signal. One thought though is if you purchased a thermostat with a mercury bulb in it (some are and some are not that way) as the mercury bulb is sensitive to movement and really not desirable to have in an RV. If yours doesn't have a mercury bulb, then it should work well and you don't need to worry with the anticipator in any case.

If you run two wires to the thermostat then the anticipator doesn't have any power, however if you run 4 wires (thermostat and 12v) then the anticipator could work some even at half voltage, so in that case I would turn the setting as low as possible, or just run two wires only. ~CA

Insane938 · 01-16-2023, 05:35 AM

Just to answer the question on the anticipator, The heat anticipator is set at the current stated on the gas valve. It is current sensitive, and has no sensitivity as to voltage. The valve may or may not have a current draw listed on it. . I agree that the anticipator is of little use, as the "anticipator" is nothing but a heating wire that heats the spring that controls the points' (or mercury bulb's) open and close. I also agree that a mercury bulb thermostat should not be used in an RV as they are super sensitive to motion and level. Get a 24v points type thermostat. It will work fine with the setting of the anticipator at factory. I wouldn't move it at all. I replaced the AC unit with a new one and used the origional controls. If the control board goes out, I will either fix it or change to a regular thermostat at that time. Good luck. Pulling the wires for the wall thermostat were a little more than I wanted to do at the time of replacement of the AC.

Insane938 · 01-16-2023, 05:51 AM

Craig is mostly right in what he says, but incorrect about the voltage requirement of a thermostat. A thermostat is only a simple on/off switch that is sensitive to heat and/or cold. The anticipator just adds heat at a certain rate to help control the switch. You can run either a heat only, or a heat/cool thermostat in your RV. It is done all the time. Just pull the correct control wires fron the furnace and AC. The only difference in a 24v thermostat and a 120v thermostat is the amount of amperage the "points" are rated to carry. You could use a 120v thermostat in your case, but it would be overkill, a waste of money, and might cause an undervoltage situation because of the resistance caused by the switch points being heavier.

craigav · 01-16-2023, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insane938

Craig is mostly right in what he says, but incorrect about the voltage requirement of a thermostat. A thermostat is only a simple on/off switch that is sensitive to heat and/or cold. The anticipator just adds heat at a certain rate to help control the switch. You can run either a heat only, or a heat/cool thermostat in your RV. It is done all the time. Just pull the correct control wires fron the furnace and AC. The only difference in a 24v thermostat and a 120v thermostat is the amount of amperage the "points" are rated to carry. You could use a 120v thermostat in your case, but it would be overkill, a waste of money, and might cause an undervoltage situation because of the resistance caused by the switch points being heavier.

Regarding the voltage requirements of a thermostat: The thermostat is in concept as you stated a simple switch in regards to the control of a furnace (or a/c) however, those thermostats with an anticipator have a very small anticipator heater in them that is voltage sensitive and most require ~24v for the "anticipator" component to work properly. If you run 120v through a thermostat that has a 24v anticipator then you would have 5 times the wattage (heat) at the anticipator which would burn it out and because the anticipator is in series then the thermostat would no longer work.

One thing I did say that was incorrect because earlier I thought that the anticipator was in parallel to the circuit and a quick check is that it is in series, so what this means is there is current flowing through the anticipator even with running two wires to the thermostat. (thermostats with an anticipator)

In any case, I wouldn't worry much if any with the anticipator setting in the case of a 12v LP RV furnace, however I would still set the anticipator to its highest setting (1.2 with the thermostat range that Bucko referenced) as even at 12v there would still be a little bit of current flowing through the anticipator.

For others who may read this, keep in mind that most thermostats for RV's and even most common today for common household hvac systems do not use anticipators. In particular anticipators commonly not used with electronic thermostats which most are now days (even those with analog controls).

In summary, many (perhaps most is a better word) electronic thermostats are voltage specific and most you will find are designed for 24v which again is common for a residence (and why many digital thermostats designed for home use will not work in an RV). RV electronic thermostats are designed for 12v systems. You cannot use a thermostat specifically designed for 12v or 24v in place of the other although there are thermostats that are not voltage dependent (such as the first one I shared in post 17) and use internal batteries exclusively for the electronics in the thermostat. (keep spare batteries) ~CA

bucko · 01-17-2023, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craigav

Which thermostat did you purchase? I haven't seen any with an anticipator that would work without 24v (typical house\business thermostat control voltage). Not that it matter as you don't need or really want an anticipator for an RV furnace. Anticipators are needed more so for steam and hot water heating systems where the heater continues to put out heat for a while after the thermostat has sent the off signal, the anticipator anticipates this will happen and is used to shut off the heat prior to reaching the setpoint.

I don't think the anticipator will work on 12v but it doesn't need to do so as an RV furnace doesn't run very long at all after the thermostat sends the off signal. One thought though is if you purchased a thermostat with a mercury bulb in it (some are and some are not that way) as the mercury bulb is sensitive to movement and really not desirable to have in an RV. If yours doesn't have a mercury bulb, then it should work well and you don't need to worry with the anticipator in any case.

If you run two wires to the thermostat then the anticipator doesn't have any power, however if you run 4 wires (thermostat and 12v) then the anticipator could work some even at half voltage, so in that case I would turn the setting as low as possible, or just run two wires only. ~CA

I cant' recall the brand name (I'm away from the house at this writing), but it only has two screw posts, for two wires. I'll just set it for its highest setting of 1.2 (anticipator). No mercury bubble that I can see. Got it off of Amazon, and it stated it was for an RV. Paid 12 bucks for it. I had a credit balance on Amazon, so That's why I bought it there. The description for it did not mention anything about an anticipator. It does state it can work on 24V systems, but again, its simple in operation. I figured by its looks and price, it was a simple RV thermostat. When the lever at its top is all the way to the left, it is "off". When I slide the lever to its right, a click is heard, and I can see from the cover being off that a "points contact" is opened or closed (off verses on) then I keep sliding to set a temp.

Now to check the carrier A/C install manual or furnace for the two thermostat wires location to determine the color codes that were used.

I still have not tried to see though if the propane furnace will operate via the existing Carrier A/C control (wireless remote) with no hookup to shore power, indicating the A/C's control panel will work to operate the furnace.

I was glad to hear that this wireless A/C control was used in other early Jayco Class C models; I'm not the only one with a setup like this, as I never found a spot in my RV where a standard wall mount thermostat for the furnace was used.

Insane938 · 01-17-2023, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craigav

Regarding the voltage requirements of a thermostat: The thermostat is in concept as you stated a simple switch in regards to the control of a furnace (or a/c) however, those thermostats with an anticipator have a very small anticipator heater in them that is voltage sensitive and most require ~24v for the "anticipator" component to work properly. If you run 120v through a thermostat that has a 24v anticipator then you would have 5 times the wattage (heat) at the anticipator which would burn it out and because the anticipator is in series then the thermostat would no longer work.

One thing I did say that was incorrect because earlier I thought that the anticipator was in parallel to the circuit and a quick check is that it is in series, so what this means is there is current flowing through the anticipator even with running two wires to the thermostat. (thermostats with an anticipator)

In any case, I wouldn't worry much if any with the anticipator setting in the case of a 12v LP RV furnace, however I would still set the anticipator to its highest setting (1.2 with the thermostat range that Bucko referenced) as even at 12v there would still be a little bit of current flowing through the anticipator.

For others who may read this, keep in mind that most thermostats for RV's and even most common today for common household hvac systems do not use anticipators. In particular anticipators commonly not used with electronic thermostats which most are now days (even those with analog controls).

In summary, many (perhaps most is a better word) electronic thermostats are voltage specific and most you will find are designed for 24v which again is common for a residence (and why many digital thermostats designed for home use will not work in an RV). RV electronic thermostats are designed for 12v systems. You cannot use a thermostat specifically designed for 12v or 24v in place of the other although there are thermostats that are not voltage dependent (such as the first one I shared in post 17) and use internal batteries exclusively for the electronics in the thermostat. (keep spare batteries) ~CA

Again Craig is mostly right. An electronic 24v, battery powered thermostat can, and has been used in 12v systems, and it functions as required. I have done it many times. As I stated, I agreed with him about the anticipator. I agree i misstated that the only difference in a 12v or 120v t-stat was the points. The anticipator is indeed different too, if present, and, if such a 24v t-stat were to be hooked up to 120v, it would indeed be smoked. However, a 24v t-stat, which I was discussing, would have no problem being used in a 12v circuit. He mentioned himself that the anticipator was of no consequence in an RV 12v system.
I have installed many battery powered electronic t-stats in RVs both heat only and heat/AC. They work perfectly well. Also, if the t-stat has an anticipator on it I would place it in it's LOWEST setting to keep the voltage drop to a minium. At the Highest setting, it would heat the wire, even a little causing some voltage drop. The lowest setting essentially bypasses the heating wire.

craigav · 01-17-2023, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insane938

Again Craig is mostly right. An electronic 24v, battery powered thermostat can, and has been used in 12v systems, and it functions as required. I have done it many times. As I stated, I agreed with him about the anticipator. I agree i misstated that the only difference in a 12v or 120v t-stat was the points. The anticipator is indeed different too, if present, and, if such a 24v t-stat were to be hooked up to 120v, it would indeed be smoked. However, a 24v t-stat, which I was discussing, would have no problem being used in a 12v circuit. He mentioned himself that the anticipator was of no consequence in an RV 12v system.
I have installed many battery powered electronic t-stats in RVs both heat only and heat/AC. They work perfectly well. Also, if the t-stat has an anticipator on it I would place it in it's LOWEST setting to keep the voltage drop to a minium. At the Highest setting, it would heat the wire, even a little causing some voltage drop. The lowest setting essentially bypasses the heating wire.

You are mostly right as well but incorrect in that 24vac electronic thermostats (such as sold for households) will work in an RV on 12vdc. However, some electronic thermostats will work and those thermostats that will work do not require 24vac such as the one I linked to earlier on. Most household electronic and often programable thermostats "require" 24vac which is not a common voltage to find in an RV.

Also the anticipator aspect not being needed isn't about the voltage, it is only used for different style heating systems that continue to output heat for a short time after being sent the off signal (which isn't a concern with an RV furnace). Most if not all newer electronic thermostats do not have an anticipator. (:>)

Bucko: from your earlier post, it sounds as if the thermostat you purchased should work well for you. ~CA

bucko · 01-17-2023, 04:51 PM

Craigav, Ironically, the one I bought is the Suburban, model 161154 you provided in your previous response here on this thread.

The instructions state it is good for Gas or oil heat, hydronic (hot water) zone heat with 2 wires, and works with millivolt heat only systems.

In the instructions, step 1 states to make note of the old thermostat anticipator setting. If no heat anticipator indication is showing on old thermostat, it says to not be concerned. Then it states to connect the two wires, and mount to the wall.

Then in the next step, it states to set the anticipator to match the current rating stamped on my main heating control. It was here that I am not sure what to set it to.

Lowest rating is 0.15 and highest is 1.2 amps. By moving the switch counter clockwise (lower anticipator number such as 0.15), it lengthens the heating system cycles, and clockwise (higher anticipator number such as 1.2), it shortens heating system cycles. If I use this thermostat, Should I set it to its lowest (0.15 shortest) setting? Or on this anticipator dial, there is a setting that says to have the pointer pointing to .25 for millivolt application. Do I use that instead?

Under specifications, it states this is a 24 VAC (30 VAC max) switch rating. I assume this would still work on a simple 12V DC RV furnace?

Or, do I scrap this thermostat and get something else?

craigav · 01-17-2023, 08:20 PM

It should work fine, the other one I shared would likely be a bit more precise but the one you purchased will work as well. I would set the anticipator midway perhaps ~ .7 and try it out. If it short cycles then turn it in the direction for longer and if it gets too hot before the furnace shuts down then turn it opposite of longer. ~CA

bucko · 01-18-2023, 03:53 AM

Thanks for all the help.

Insane938 · 01-21-2023, 08:21 AM

Craig,
I think that you just like to argue, and always have the last word. I never said that there were not 24v household electronic t-stats that would work on 12v. I said that battery powered electronic 24v t-stats would work on 12v systems. Take the last word. I will let you have it. Just don't put words in my mouth, or in this case type.

bucko · 01-24-2023, 04:14 AM

I appreciate any and all help that I have on an issue, but don't like to see two or more members get upset over each others way of explaining the problem or component needed.

I will go on record that craigav was extremely helpful on an issue I had in the past with a house solenoid disconnect issue. He was dead on with what I needed, helped me get the right solenoid, and explained with simple easy to follow directions on how to wire it up, since a previous owner had removed it and butchered the wiring for it.

I trust craigrv's advice. Once again, his explanation on how a basic/simple wiring of a thermostat can eliminate using the circuit board of the Carrier A/C unit I have. I now was able to get my furnace (propane heater) working easily again.

I'm a happy camper.

craigav · 01-24-2023, 11:30 AM

Thanks Bucko. Happy to help. I was never upset although I did come to realize I may have upset Insane938 which was never my intention to do so and for that I apologize.

I firmly believe that sometimes (perhaps many times) what is written would come across much different if we were all gathered around and enjoying a campfire discussing any number of topics. I try to keep that in mind when responding to comments and questions and how I word them. Maybe one day, we (JOF members) can have one or more meet ups somewhere and meet with other JOF members face to face and then share and enjoy our thoughts and experiences with each other while enjoying the lifestyle we all share. ~CA

pconroy · 01-24-2023, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craigav

I firmly believe that sometimes (perhaps many times) what is written would come across much different if we were all gathered around and enjoying a campfire discussing any number of topics.

Well said.

I've been on the Internet since the late 80's.
And on BBSs before that.

This goes for *readers* as well as writers. Don't be so quick to assume malice. The internet allows people with a wide range of culture/styles/preferences to interact with the luxury of using body-talk to read-between-the-lines.

If you read something and find yourself offended, log off and take a break.

DRLindsey · 01-25-2023, 04:58 PM

My Jayco 2005 greyhawk 24" has the thermostat on the wall next to the bathroom door. Other size units may be located elsewhere. I do not have a remote controlled AC or heat. The AC is ceiling mounted and controlled separately from the bottom of the unit.

bucko · 01-26-2023, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRLindsey

My Jayco 2005 greyhawk 24" has the thermostat on the wall next to the bathroom door. Other size units may be located elsewhere. I do not have a remote controlled AC or heat. The AC is ceiling mounted and controlled separately from the bottom of the unit.

It appears that Jayco installed these A/C units in some of their models (A/C, heat pump, EM heat, and furnace) all controlled by one unit, with a remote.

I like the idea for convenience, but found that this unit I have is no longer available, and parts are getting hard to purchase. Hence my reason to be pro active in having a plan B for heat, separating the propane heater from the A/C unit.

Perhaps the Jayco assembly line would purchase mass quantities of these and use them, then buy mass units of a different type. No telling.

Insane938 · 01-28-2023, 11:24 AM

Bucko,
You are correct in that the origional Unit brand is no longer available. Carrier quit making RV air conditioners in 2007 I believe if I remember correctly. (Maybe 2006?) They no longer support any of the units. However the control boards are easy to fix. I am glad you got your unit fixed. I did become upset with Craig, and for that I appologize to everyone. However I clearly stated that the 24V electronic tstats with batteries would work in a 12v situation. These are used in homes every day. I did not claim in any post I made that a home model 24v only tstat (without battery power) would work. If Craig had read my post more closely, that would have been clear, and I would not have been attacked by him. Again I appologize for becoming upset, but I feel I am owed an apology also.

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