220 Big volt/ Big mistake

[Cavie]

Originally Posted by RetiredOne

Yes, technically, you could jump across the two legs to get 240 volt, but the system isn't wired that way inside the RV, The buss is split (like my diagram), sending 120 volt to each side. People confuse the dual 120 volt feed on the RV with a dual 120 volt feed in your regular house. They are wired differently in each case.

Now, if a electrician makes a mistake and jumps the two or wires in the wrong outlet (like in the OP), then you could feed 240 volt to the rig. Like I said, on a standard 50 amp RV feed, there are no 240 volt outlets in the rig. Everything runs off of 120 volt.

Both RV and house are wired exactly the same. 240 is at the main of the RV breaker. You just can't put a two pole breaker in and get 240 volts unless you are in a High Dollar MH desisigned to access 240 for 240 dryer and 240 cooktop.

[RetiredOne]

Originally Posted by Cavie

You are wrong oh wise one. But you are not alown. Many non electric type people do not understand how electricity works and should leave it to those that do. 50 amp RV service IS 240 volts deliverd to your RV. Put a meter across L1 and L2 and come back and tell me what you find.

I already said that above, if you measure across both legs, you'll see 240 volt. Now, Please inform us how the buss bars are wired and how many double pole breakers are on it feeding 240 volts inside the rig.

Please tell me, what appliance in a TT or Class C is powered off of a 240 volt feed.

And no electrician in his lifetime ever said that 100 amps is available on a 50 amp service. That only comes from unknowing RV'ers. One leg goes over 50 amp and the both trip off.

Really?

I said TOTAL available is 100 amps, not 100 amps on a leg. Reading comprehension please. So there's no way 48 amps could be pulled from each leg, for a total of 96 amps? So, maximum available is NOT only 50 amps?

Even the diagram you posted proves you wrong, showing 12,000 total watts on a 50 amp service.

[Cavie]

Originally Posted by RetiredOne

I already said that above, if you measure across both legs, you'll see 240 volt. Now, Please inform us how the buss bars are wired and how many double pole breakers are on it feeding 240 volts inside the rig.

Please tell me, what appliance in a TT or Class C is powered off of a 240 volt feed.


Really?

I said TOTAL available is 100 amps, not 100 amps on a leg. Reading comprehension please. So there's no way 48 amps could be pulled from each leg, for a total of 98 amps? So, maximum available is NOT only 50 amps?

Even the diagram you posted proves you wrong, showing 12,000 total watts on a 50 amp service.

I never said 100 amps per leg. I said no electrician ever said 100 amps available.

If you look at the pic again you will see 240 volts applied across l1 and l2. 240 is there if your TT or C or any RV has a 50 amp service. No appliance in these rigs ues 240 volts. BUT it is there at the main breaker!! Your main breaker is in the middle that means 120 volts to the left and 120 volts to the right. You can not install a 2 ploe breaker in that panel and use 240 volts! Now if you own a hight dollar MH with the main breaker on one end THEN you can access 240 volts for the Dryer and the cook top. Why do you wish to argue with a 50 year master electrican? Have a good evning sir.

[RetiredOne]

Originally Posted by Cavie

I never said 100 amps per leg. I said no electrician ever said 100 amps available.

You posted a diagram showing a 50 amp RV service providing 12,000 watts, didn't you? How many total amps is that for all the 120 volt appliances?

[JimD]

Ever notice when the topic is 50 amp per leg things get heated quickly? I've seen and took part in a few of these discussions and it never ceases to amaze me that the same arguments keep coming up.

I tend to listen to the master electricians out there especially the retired ones. After all, they survived many years working around electricity and are still around to argue about it.

Your RV has 2 main breakers, each being 50 amp. Yes they are connected together so that if one trips the other will be tripped. I assume this is a safety feature and there must be a good reason for it. So, you can pull up to 50 amps through one breaker before there is a problem.

So during this time while one breaker is pulling almost 50 amps, what is the other breaker doing? Whatever it wants as it is totally independent (except for the mechanical binding of the switches). During this time it can pull 0 amps or up to its max of 50 amps. The other breaker pulling its near 50 amps could care less.

So you have near 50 amps going through one breaker and near 50 amps going through the other breaker. All is well and your TOTAL draw is approaching 100 amps. Each breaker is tied to a different leg of your 240 volt feed, just like at your house. Each leg is basically independent of the other leg.

If you ever have poked around inside your home's power panel (and lived) you would see two bus bars that the breakers are connected to. Half the breakers will be connected to one buss and the other half will go to the other buss. You will probably have some 15 and 20 amp breakers and each breaker can flow up to its limit independent of all of the other breakers. Just like in an RV, you will have a TOTAL possible draw much higher than each individual leg. Each panel buss will have a breaker that protects the entire leg. I haven't looked at my panel recently so am not sure how they size the master breakers in those things. But it is pretty simple in an RV - two 50 amp breakers capable of passing a max of 50 amps EACH for a TOTAL possible draw from the power company of 100 amps.

I wish I had 50 amp service in my rig but am content with my 30 amps. That is a whole different ball game. Only 1 leg coming in with a TOTAL max of 30 amps.

I do have a question for you 50 ampers out there. You can pull all those nice amps when connected to shore power but what about your generator? I think many rigs come with 5500 watt units. No way you could get that power from 5500 watts. Do these have their own 25 amp or so breakers?

[Route 66 Traveler]

Just hope these technical arguments haven’t scared off the OP....I’m very curious what plug he used and how it was wired. Lesson learned for all the newbies...never trust a RV salesman for ANY technical information. When I bought my TT the young sales guy told me my slide mechanism was hydraulic, when in fact I knew it was rack & pinyon.

[SloPoke]

Originally Posted by SloPoke

Watching... but not offering ANY OPINION or advice... this could be one of those JOF Electrical threads that the internet is famous for!

and as you read on... you will understand why... Cavie - you are a SAINT to continue on to assist those here who wish to acquire an understanding of electrical distribution systems.

Originally Posted by Cavie

Right here! 30 amp 3 wire RV is 120 volts. 50 amp Rv is 240 volts. You can not plug a 30 amp RV power cord into a 30 amp 240 volt receptical. It will not fit. Someone had to put 240 volts on the shore power outlet. They would have had to put 240 volts and a neutral or 240 volts and a ground. 240 volts requires 4 wires. 30 amps is only 3. Hot, neutral and ground. 240 is 2 hots. neutral and ground.

X2 ^^^^^^ I shudder to think where the real neutral went???.

Originally Posted by Cavie

You are wrong oh wise one. But you are not alown. Many non electric type people do not understand how electricity works and should leave it to those that do. 50 amp RV service IS 240 volts deliverd to your RV. Put a meter across L1 and L2 and come back and tell me what you find. All 240 volt services anywhere, be it home or office or your Rv is made up of two 120 volt legs. 180 degreese of phase with each other. Double click this picture and have a look. 240 is not accessable but it is there. And no electrician in his lifetime ever said that 100 amps is available on a 50 amp service. That only comes from unknowing RV'ers. One leg goes over 50 amp and the both trip off.

Attachment 63279

Same correct response as above!

Originally Posted by Cavie

I never said 100 amps per leg. I said no electrician ever said 100 amps available.

If you look at the pic again you will see 240 volts applied across l1 and l2. 240 is there if your TT or C or any RV has a 50 amp service. No appliance in these rigs ues 240 volts. BUT it is there at the main breaker!! Your main breaker is in the middle that means 120 volts to the left and 120 volts to the right. You can not install a 2 ploe breaker in that panel and use 240 volts! Now if you own a hight dollar MH with the main breaker on one end THEN you can access 240 volts for the Dryer and the cook top. Why do you wish to argue with a 50 year master electrican? Have a good evning sir.

Originally Posted by JimD

Ever notice when the topic is 50 amp per leg things get heated quickly? I've seen and took part in a few of these discussions and it never ceases to amaze me that the same arguments keep coming up.
I tend to listen to the master electricians out there especially the retired ones. After all, they survived many years working around electricity and are still around to argue about it.

I'm sure Cavie can relate to using a hot stick to throw(energize) the main in a switch-gear room of a 720k-sqft Convention Center

Originally Posted by Route 66 Traveler

Just hope these technical arguments haven’t scared off the OP....I’m very curious what plug he used and how it was wired. Lesson learned for all the newbies...never trust a RV salesman for ANY technical information. When I bought my TT the young sales guy told me my slide mechanism was hydraulic, when in fact I knew it was rack & pinyon.

I am, I would like to see pictures of the wiring in the panel, the receptacle and the RV... These kinds of events are good learning experiences for everyone, albeit at the expense of the OP - but if a clear understanding of what when wrong is identified, then others still learn! And if the error was the fault of the tradesman who installed the wiring, then maybe the OP has some recourse and can recover some of the repair expense.

[che57vy]

My microwave has a fuse on the board may be all it needs

[morleyz]

I love a good technical discussion, but I have a question that maybe one of the electricians would know the answer to. So let's assume in this case that the correct 120V receptacle was incorrectly wired with hots on the "blades" and the neutral on the ground. You plug shore power into this receptacle (let's pretend there are no EMS/surge devices) and you just energized the converter main and put 120V onto the converter neutral bus.

In RV converters, are the neutral and ground bonded (I would assume so, but I don't actually know)? If so, wouldn't this be the equivalent of sticking your screwdriver across neutral/hot? Wouldn't the main and/or the branch breakers trip immediately? It's not like the shore power is just wire nutted onto branch circuits.

[Screwby]

I’m just saying, and I am no electrician, but when I crawled into my 5th wheels basement to do some work on the wiring (rats nest) I noticed my converter plugged into a 220 volt outlet (with the weird sideways blade). Is this just so no one will try to use that outlet for other purposes or is that 220V at that outlet? I guess I could crawl back in there with a meter but thought I’d throw that out there.

[RetiredOne]

Originally Posted by morleyz

In RV converters, are the neutral and ground bonded (I would assume so, but I don't actually know)? If so, wouldn't this be the equivalent of sticking your screwdriver across neutral/hot? Wouldn't the main and/or the branch breakers trip immediately? It's not like the shore power is just wire nutted onto branch circuits.

I believe they are not bonded, they are separate, and floating. My rig isn't. The bonding takes place at the main panel, feeding your rig. Here's a picture of mine.

[RetiredOne]

Originally Posted by Screwby

I’m just saying, and I am no electrician, but when I crawled into my 5th wheels basement to do some work on the wiring (rats nest) I noticed my converter plugged into a 220 volt outlet (with the weird sideways blade). Is this just so no one will try to use that outlet for other purposes or is that 220V at that outlet? I guess I could crawl back in there with a meter but thought I’d throw that out there.

Is it just one blade sideways? If so, that's a 20 amp outlet, 120 volt, not 240 volt.

Does it look like this?

[Screwby]

Originally Posted by RetiredOne

Is it just one blade sideways? If so, that's a 20 amp outlet, 120 volt, not 240 volt.

Does it look like this?

That one, thanks! Saved me a crawl back into the basement

[morleyz]

Originally Posted by RetiredOne

I believe they are not bonded, they are separate, and floating. My rig isn't. The bonding takes place at the main panel, feeding your rig. Here's a picture of mine.

I suppose that makes sense. It still really surprises me that a breaker (or several) wouldn't have tripped in the converter in this situation.

[Jagiven]

Hey OP, sorry to hear about your troubles. It happens a lot more frequently then you would think. There have been many posts over the years, where the electrician knew better, and wired up the 30 amp plug for 220. It is an easy mistake. All it takes is installing a dual breaker in the main panel. And opps!

Time to sit back have another cool beverage and a nap, before getting it fixed.

Good Luck, hope there is not to much damage.

[Cavie]

That is how you hear all the stories about misswired outlets. The electrician does not know it 120 volts because he didn't read the writting on the outlet. He has never seen one. Assumes it's 240 and nobody told him different. I was in the business 30 years before I saw my first 120 volt 30 amp RV outlet.

[Cavie]

Originally Posted by RetiredOne

Is it just one blade sideways? If so, that's a 20 amp outlet, 120 volt, not 240 volt.

Does it look like this?

one blade sideways can be 120 or 240 depending on which blade is sideways. Note lines 3 and 4 in the attached picture.

[RetiredOne]

Originally Posted by Cavie

one blade sideways can be 120 or 240 depending on which blade is sideways. Note lines 3 and 4 in the attached picture.

That's why I attached the picture of the 20 amp, 120 volt plug.

BTW, have you been able to calculate how many total amps 12,000 watts are at 120 volt yet?

[2edgesword]

Originally Posted by RetiredOne

That's why I attached the picture of the 20 amp, 120 volt plug.

BTW, have you been able to calculate how many total amps 12,000 watts are at 120 volt yet?

100 Amps

[Cavie]

Originally Posted by RetiredOne

That's why I attached the picture of the 20 amp, 120 volt plug.

BTW, have you been able to calculate how many total amps 12,000 watts are at 120 volt yet?

Not gonna try