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Old 05-09-2015, 09:37 PM   #1
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DEF Questions

I just purchased a 2014 Seneca. What can I expect with relation to regeneration. Do I just keep the DEF tank full and let the system do the work? I am not at all familiar with the DEF emission system. I have had other diesels but none requiring DEF.
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Old 05-09-2015, 09:50 PM   #2
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Def. ( Diesal exhaust fluid or urea ) allows Diesel fuel to combust with less oxygen ( think lean mixture in a carburetor ) thereby reducing the NOx2 produced during combustion .

The Urea is introduced to the fuel prior to injection. It's held in a separate tank

Unlike the original regeneration process, where the DPF was essentially filled very quickly and needed to be managed frequently, new emission systems require less regeneration cycles due do the reduced NOx2 being produced because of the Urea.

Your truck still goes through a regen process, just less frequently, and shorter durations.
You must keep DEF in the tank, or the computer on your truck will shut down the truck and put you into " limp home mode"

Urea has been used in mining equipment for many years as an effective way to reduce harmful exhaust
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Old 05-10-2015, 07:05 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmooney View Post
Def. ( Diesal exhaust fluid or urea ) allows Diesel fuel to combust with less oxygen ( think lean mixture in a carburetor ) thereby reducing the NOx2 produced during combustion .

The Urea is introduced to the fuel prior to injection. It's held in a separate tank

Unlike the original regeneration process, where the DPF was essentially filled very quickly and needed to be managed frequently, new emission systems require less regeneration cycles due do the reduced NOx2 being produced because of the Urea.

Your truck still goes through a regen process, just less frequently, and shorter durations.
You must keep DEF in the tank, or the computer on your truck will shut down the truck and put you into " limp home mode"

Urea has been used in mining equipment for many years as an effective way to reduce harmful exhaust

It is my understanding that DEF is introduced into the exhaust emissions not as a fuel additive.

"SCR works by first routing exhaust gases through an oxidation catalyst, which removes hydrocarbons and converts a small amount of NOx to NO2. The next step requires an injection of an aqueous urea solution, DEF, into the exhaust stream at a precise dosing rate. Exhaust fluid is converted into ammonia, which reacts with the remaining NOx in the SCR catalyst to produce harmless nitrogen and water. A final catalyst is sometimes installed downstream of the SCR catalyst, which is designed to remove any remaining ammonia from the vehicle’s exhaust."

This was an explanation from DieselPowerMag.com
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Old 05-10-2015, 07:42 AM   #4
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thanks for the clarification..... You are right.

I knew that the original DPFs simply allowed Diseal fuel into the exhaust stroke, but I thought that the Urea was delivered pre combustion stroke.

My 2007.5 ram used this method

I'll go back and re-read that original article
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Old 05-10-2015, 09:21 AM   #5
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If you know, is the process still " selective" where DEF is only introduced during the regen process? Or is selective now only related to the high heat portion of the process?

I always thought that In the original cummins process, step 1 was generally always active ( EGR ), Then during regen, step 2 was adding fuel to the exhaust stroke and step 3 was high heat?
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Old 05-10-2015, 10:01 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by richard66 View Post
I just purchased a 2014 Seneca. What can I expect with relation to regeneration. Do I just keep the DEF tank full and let the system do the work? I am not at all familiar with the DEF emission system. I have had other diesels but none requiring DEF.
I appreciate the knowledge held by the two posters providing information as to how and why the DEF works, but

to answer the OP's question, Yes... Just keep the DEF tank full, and let the system do the work!

As long as you keep DEF tank filled, the rest of the process is passive...
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Old 05-10-2015, 10:53 AM   #7
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I appreciate the knowledge held by the two posters providing information as to how and why the DEF works, but

to answer the OP's question, Yes... Just keep the DEF tank full, and let the system do the work!

As long as you keep DEF tank filled, the rest of the process is passive...
^. ^

Yes hopefully this is true.

If you don't do a lot of highway driving ( 30-4O miles at a time ) you could find the DPF regen process not being successful. Your system will warn you, and if it does, take it for a nice long highway drive.

Sorry about being long winded
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Old 05-10-2015, 11:05 AM   #8
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In talking with a service tech at Freightliner, he reccommended against using the DEF pumps commoningly found at truck stops. He has been seeing trucks come in for service with contamination/water from residue and condensation in the tanks. His suggestion is to carry DEF in the sealed containers found in auto parts stores.
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Old 05-10-2015, 11:28 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmooney View Post
If you know, is the process still " selective" where DEF is only introduced during the regen process? Or is selective now only related to the high heat portion of the process?

I always thought that In the original cummins process, step 1 was generally always active ( EGR ), Then during regen, step 2 was adding fuel to the exhaust stroke and step 3 was high heat?

It is my understanding that the Cummins is selective. But not in the way I think you are asking. The pump on mine runs constantly, I can hear it ticking all the time. But depending on engine load and other parameters it runs at a higher rate or lower rate. So in one sense it is not selective but the SCR system determines the quantity and volume required.

Yes regen will happen at the most inopportune times with trucks used as daily drivers. A 45 minute highway drive once a week will keep the regen away.

I would never use the DEF at the pumps. I prefer a sealed container.
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Old 05-10-2015, 11:39 AM   #10
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DEF has a shelf life. Higher temperatures are not recommended for storage as it reduces shelf life (the DEF tank likely lives inside an engine bay). Given an infrequently used RV, it may be best to let the DEF tank level go down to the dash alert before refilling. To do otherwise will let the DEF in the tank get old rather than to be used and replenished with new. Another issue is that to constantly top off will mean not only the DEF in the tank will age, but also your refill stock will age along with it.

DEF is readily available now so there is little reason to keep it on hand to age. Some DEF containers come with a handy spill proof spout. I recommend using the spill proof containers because DEF is very corrosive. It is especially bad around copper and brass electrical components. Should you spill any DEF always flush immediately with copious amounts of water.

http://www.dynonobel.com/~/media/Fil...20Solution.pdf

FWIW. vic
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Old 05-10-2015, 12:04 PM   #11
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I have not had issues at all with the DEF, I only notice the regen when the truck is at idle and it will be 200 or so rpms higher.Most of our daily driving is short trips.I get a message in the DIC when I have 1000 miles to empty on the DEF so running low and going into limp mode is really not a issue.
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Old 05-10-2015, 12:54 PM   #12
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So traveling on the highway for hours I am not faced with a regeneration? Regeneration just happens when it is needed and I don't need to do anything but keep DEF in the tank. I thought will traveling I might get a regen request buy the symbol coming up on the dash.
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Old 05-10-2015, 01:10 PM   #13
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As the DEF system is part of the mandated emissions control it is all automatic as to operating at the correct time(s). You will not even be aware of when it is operating.

The DEF Diesel Exhaust Fluid system is separate from the DPF Diesel Particulate Filter. The DEF is injected/metered. The DPF gets regeneration cycles. Both are automatic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTec
BlueTec® SCR Emissions Technology
BlueTec is a complete emissions system that combines exhaust gas recirculation (EGR), selective catalytic reduction (SCR), diesel oxidation catalyst (DOC) and the diesel particulate filter (DPF) to efficiently meet the EPA 2010 emissions standards. BlueTec treats the exhaust gases downstream of the engine instead of requiring complex changes under the hood. It does this by injecting a small amount of diesel exhaust fluid (DEF) into the exhaust stream. DEF reacts with the NOx in the SCR catalyst to form nitrogen and water. Then, the nitrogen and water, safe elements in the air we breathe, are released into the environment.
https://www.demanddetroit.com/perfor...emissions.aspx

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...I thought while traveling I might get a regen request buy the symbol coming up on the dash.
The only operator response necessary is to fill the DEF tank when you get a low DEF indicator on the dash. Should the system fail that will also generate a dash warning. Other than that it should just cruise along.

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Old 05-10-2015, 06:25 PM   #14
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Thanks for all the great information.
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Old 05-10-2015, 07:48 PM   #15
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Since I teach this topic to dealer techs for my employer, let me give a quick clarification.

DEF has a definite shelf life and you would be wise to carry your own, but don't buy huge quantities so you have quality DEF to use. Be careful with it and store it in plastic containers with tight fitting, leak-proof lids. It will quickly corrode any metal it comes in contact with. There are kits to test the DEF quality, but I'm sure you don't want to do that at a fuel station. The advice was good when you were told the DEF at a fuel station is questionable - unless you are familiar with their practices. Fill your DEF tank when it gets low so that the DEF doesn't sit in the tank too long. But don't let it run out. Your engine performance will be derated, and eventually won't be able to be restarted (until the code is cleared by a dealer tech) if you let it run out enough times. So be vigilant.

DEF was introduced for on-highway diesel engines a few years back, as the best technology so far for meeting the EPA's Tier 4 Final emissions regulations. Tier 4 Interim introduced the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) and EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation), about 2004.

EGR recirculates cooled exhaust gasses that mix with charge air for combustion. Diesel engines naturally run colder than gas engines, so not all the fuel burns during combustion. (That's where the distinctive diesel smell came from in older engines.) Recirculating the exhaust ensures nearly all fuel is burned.

The DPF captures the soot in diesel exhaust and converts it to ash during the regeneration process. Exhaust temperatures must be high enough, though, to facilitate regeneration. Most small engines (less than 9 liters) employ passive regeneration using a diesel exhaust backpressure valve - essentially restricting the exhaust, which elevates engine and exhaust temperatures high enough to achieve regeneration.

The DEF is then injected into the exhaust stream after the DPF, but before the SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction) canister. The SCR is a second filter of sorts, made from rare earth elements (platinum, palladium, etc). The DEF and the SCR filter combine to create a chemical reaction that removes NOx (Nitrous Oxide) from the exhaust. There is a NOx sensor before and after the SCR and a dedicated control module determines how much DEF needs to be injected.

The result is the exhaust exiting the SCR (and your tailpipe) consists of only carbon dioxide and water vapor - cleaner than the air the engine is taking in - but laden with CO2.

That's the short course - and probably more than most want to know.
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Old 05-10-2015, 09:30 PM   #16
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Doing some research I came across this pic that appears to represent the current system that dodge/ cummins is using. I found it interesting that dodge/ cummins chose to still use EGR in the process. I guess they can reduce the amount of Urea consumed
Click image for larger version

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Old 05-11-2015, 05:06 AM   #17
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I found it interesting that dodge/ cummins chose to still use EGR in the process. I guess they can reduce the amount of Urea consumed
Attachment 18030
The EGR reduces the amount of soot in the exhaust, which extends the life of the DPF. I believe all manufacturers of on-highway diesel engines use cooled EGR, but not positive. I know my company uses it on engines from 4.4L to 32L engines for on-highway and heavy equipment.
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Old 05-11-2015, 05:19 AM   #18
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Got my first truck a couple years ago that had to have the DEF . Really not a big deal anymore. Almost all the truck stops have Def right at the pump now. It uses very little except when towing . Made a trip from Michigan to south Texas couple years ago and the message came up 500 miles to empty on the DEF . 1,800 miles of towing . Probably three times that or more empty. When the system comes on to clean the filters you can see the mileage drop for about twenty minutes.
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Old 07-03-2016, 03:03 PM   #19
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DEF issues

Has anyone had a problem with the amber warning light indicating less than 10% DEF while the bars are showing 4 - meaning full.
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Old 07-04-2016, 08:38 AM   #20
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I just turned 20,000 miles on our Seneca the other day. I just keep adding DEF when needed using roughly 2.5 gallons per 1000 miles. I have done nothing else and have not even noticed regen mode, but then I'm always on the highway. Pretty troublefree so far.
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