E450 Steering Sway Pulling A Toad vs. No Toad

[alazear]

Just got back from an 11 hour marathon drive yesterday in our 2020 Redhawk 24B pulling our 2019 JLU 4 door Jeep as a toad. [Jeep fully loaded weighs ~4600 lbs., using Ready Brute Elite tow bar]

The roads on this drive gave me the widest variety of roads possible to test all in a single day. The early morning started as very, very tight, zero shoulder, very twisty So.OR./No Cal. steep coastal roads going up and over the Redwood mountains through tight trees. [Gorgeous - Lord of the Rings stuff ] Up and downhill grades hit 6% regularly and topped out at about 10% over short sections. Very, very slow driving on these sections, both up and down. Then the roads went to faster legitimate 2 lane roads and highways with actual shoulders and rumble strips, etc. Then some fast freeway driving [Interstate 5 in CA.] and then more mixed highway driving home to Northern NV.

My question is this:
I'm still getting what I refer to as "surfing" or sway or more exactly - constant micro corrections needed in the steering all the time. I've noticed a big difference in handling pulling a toad vs not pulling a toad in this rig. When not pulling the Jeep as a toad, the steering is fine on almost all road conditions, even tight challenging conditions like yesterday. There are very few micro corrections needed, or surfing or sway is felt and thus the drive behind the wheel is pleasant and relaxing. However when towing the toad, it's much more of a constant battle keeping the rig "between the lines" without a continual fight of micro steering corrections at all times. Are others who have towed toads extensively vs. not finding the same thing, and I just need to man up and deal with it realizing "that's just the way it's going to be?" I'm pretty sure I've maxed out the upgrades I can do to get this rig to drive as well as it can. My gut feeling is the Jeep having 4 wheels on the ground flat towing is in a narrower wheel track than the Redhawk and there is not much to do about it grabbing side to side pulling the rear end around of the Redhawk. But I'm curious to hear others flat towing toad pulling experiences behind the wheel of their rigs.

This is what I've done to the Redhawk 24B suspension thus far:
1. Always check tire pressure - both vehicles
2. Front end alignment
3. Tightened Helwig Rear Helper Springs to 2" space all around
4. Helwig Front and Rear Sway Bar Upgrades
5. Roadmaster Reflex Steering Stabilizer Upgrade

[Harvard]

Regarding the alignment, what are your caster settings? Too little caster will result in loose steering. Should be set at +5.5 to +6.0 degrees.

[TwinDad]

I haven’t noticed much difference in the way my 31F drives with our Jeep in tow vs. not having the Jeep. I hardly know the Jeep is back there and have to check the rear camera periodically to double check. That being, it’s not like the thing handles well to begin with, it’s a big heavy sail driving down the road. I’m going to start all the same upgrades you’ve done. I’ve got the steering stabilizer ordered and will be doing each upgrade one at a time. I’m hoping it helps.

On a side note, do you mind posting a picture of what the helper springs look like after you’ve made the adjustment? It seems like a lot of people do it and from what I’ve read mine are out of spec because there is a huge gap.

[Randy]

Hi Alazear-- I tow a 4Runner behind my E450, and it is quite steady, Albeit, my motorhome drives fantastic compared to some of the comments I see here. It has Jrideplus, maybe the difference? At any rate, sometimes I tow the same 4runner with my Ford F350 pick up, That is a different story, as you said, it really “surfs” and needs “a lot” of corrections… Then when I upgraded my 2012 4runner to a 2020, I had to install a Roadmaster baseplate as my Blue Ox from the 2012 didn’t fit. The RM attachment points are 2-3 inches wider than my Blue ox, and behind my F350 tows much better than the 12. I am sure the 2020 is much tighter and helps, but I believe the wider attachment points help as well—food for thought

[gprapim]

With the improvements you have done, it should track much better than stock, however, keep in mind that the shorter wheelbase on your rig, vs. the longer Jayco rigs wheelbase will also have a marked difference when towing your Jeep. The longer wheelbase rigs will track considerably better when being pushed around by what is being towed. I tow a 4 door Rubicon behind my GreyHawk 29W. I have done the front sway bar and the Roadmaster Steering Stabilizer and they made a very big difference in sway. Mine tracks exceptionally well when towing my Jeep and, quite frankly, other than the power loss, I don’t know it’s back there. I installed an optional camera just to be able to monitor it while towing.

[alazear]

Originally Posted by TwinDad

On a side note, do you mind posting a picture of what the helper springs look like after you’ve made the adjustment? It seems like a lot of people do it and from what I’ve read mine are out of spec because there is a huge gap.

Hi TwinDad,
Here are a couple pictures I just took of the front and back of the passenger side of Helwig Helper Springs. Driver side is nearly identical to do, but each set front/back - driver/passenger has different things in the way you have to avoid with the wrenches in tightening things down. Gloves recommended to protect your hands and a cheater bar to extend the length of one wrench to begin with can save you from having to pull so hard to break the jam nuts loose and can also save your knuckles... You just need the right sized set of 2 wrenches, and some patience tightening the nuts down. I did notice a bit of a change in driving sway after doing this, plus it's a free upgrade. Recommended space is 2-3" from top of the spring stack to the bottom of the curve in the helper spring for proper tightness, shown in pictures. I went with a 2" space. Good fun.

[alazear]

Originally Posted by Harvard

Regarding the alignment, what are your caster settings? Too little caster will result in loose steering. Should be set at +5.5 to +6.0 degrees.

I'll check into this.

[alazear]

Originally Posted by Randy

but I believe the wider attachment points help as well—food for thought

Interesting point. I had not considered this at all in choosing my tow bar. I chose it because it was easily installed by me and very low tech in its braking function which I liked a lot... direct cables to the brake pedal.

Originally Posted by gprapim

the shorter wheelbase on your rig, vs. the longer Jayco rigs wheelbase will also have a marked difference when towing your Jeep. The longer wheelbase rigs will track considerably better when being pushed around by what is being towed.

Good to know and I'm sure this is part of my issue, if not most all of it. I can see this factor playing very a big roll in what I'm feeling.

[Camper_bob]

Mine seems to track slightly better with the Jeep in tow (2020 JLU).

That being said, previous to last weekend I hadn't been many places NOT towing the Jeep. And I've only towed the JLU a couple times for testing; I haven't had a chance to tow this one long distance yet. I just got back from a 1-1/2 hr (one way) trip without the Jeep, and I felt like the rig was a bit more "twitchy" than usual. But then I also had an empty water tank (which is abnormal for me) and it was pretty windy...

I think I'm going to try something on the rear of the rig next. Either a track bar or another set of Sumos. My front end seems pretty tight and tracks pretty well now (Roadmaster Reflex, Hellwig Sway Bar, Sumos), but it still feels like the rear is a bit loose...

[Randy]

The other post about wheel base lenth is right on- If you can get it to tow well behind a pickup, then, behind a longer and heavier MH will be a dream. Also, for fine tuning- You can play with your hitch height and tow bar angle (a little) a bit of pull up or pull down can change your alignment geometry in the front (a little). Your tow bar instrctions will tell you how much variance is acceptable.

[alazear]

Originally Posted by Camper_bob

Mine seems to track slightly better with the Jeep in tow (2020 JLU). I think I'm going to try something on the rear of the rig next. Either a track bar or another set of Sumos. My front end seems pretty tight and tracks pretty well now (Roadmaster Reflex, Hellwig Sway Bar, Sumos), but it still feels like the rear is a bit loose...

I briefly considered doing a track bar in the back, but very few others seemed to need it, so I dismissed it. I might reconsider adding it now knowing that towing a toad is very different than not for me. I wonder if it plays well with the upgraded rear sway bar?

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by alazear

I briefly considered doing a track bar in the back, but very few others seemed to need it, so I dismissed it. I might reconsider adding it now knowing that towing a toad is very different than not for me. I wonder if it plays well with the upgraded rear sway bar?

I was wondering the same thing about the rear sway bar. IIRC, there was something in the instructions that mentioned the sway bar, and that was one of my "unknowns". Just haven't been close enough to pulling the trigger to really get into it yet.

As for the track bar itself, I think the theory is sound, and it should improve what I'm feeling. Where I have a doubt is whether Sumos would be just as effective at mitigating what I feel. I realize they're working on two completely different "movements". But there is a significant difference in the monetary outlay between the two mods. Plus since I already have the upgraded sway bar in the rear (J-Ride Plus), I wonder how much difference there would really be.

It's been historically difficult for me to find much anecdotal evidence from people who have done one or the other. Like on this forum, I only know of one who has done the track bar, and now one who has done Sumos. Both reported distinct improvements in handling...

[alazear]

I don't know about Sumos being effective at what I'm feeling given it's mostly all side to side micro corrections on long drives that is wearing me out as a driver, but so few people have been test cases on either Sumos or Track Bars here it's very hard to tell how to proceed or to just suck it up and deal with it.

Additionally, when thinking about it, I'm really starting to believe there could be a very significant difference between the shorter wheel based rigs and the longer wheel base rigs and how they track down the road when pulling a toad, even though they are all based on the same basic E450 platform. It may be that the shorter wheel based rigs need more aftermarket stabilization to achieve the same road manors as the longer wheel based rigs, especially for towing a toad pulling on the back end of the rig side to side all the time?

[alazear]

Camper Bob:
By the way where in So. TX. are you from? I love So Padre Island for kiteboarding. We canceled a 3 week trip there this year due to Covid. Hopefully we will get out to SPI again next winter or spring.

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by alazear

Camper Bob:
By the way where in So. TX. are you from? I love So Padre Island for kiteboarding. We canceled a 3 week trip there this year due to Covid. Hopefully we will get out to SPI again next winter or spring.

I agree there's a significant difference in the road manners between the shorter and longer wheel bases. A few have had problems handling, and had the caster increased only to find it didn't really make much difference on their short rig. Same caster adjustment on a longer rig solves many problems though. And those who added roadmaster reflex (or similar) along with Hellwig sway bar up front report very positive results (whether long or short).

I'm thinking the sumos out back will help mitigate the "rocking" or body roll. Up front between the sway bar and the sumos, my body roll situation was GREATLY improved. So I'm thinking the body roll in the rear might be pushing the front end around somewhat. That's my theory anyhow... I don't know what I'll do. Nothing for a while since I'm dealing with a stolen catalytic converter, inoperable jacks and an inoperable generator right now...

I live just East of San Antonio. Our favorite place on the coast has always been Port Aransas. We generally stay at Pioneer, but have been known to boondock right on the beach. We don't generally go to South Padre any more. Got sick there a few years back, and when we went back, the smell of the island made us gag. Port A has always been a bit more laid back until recently. It's no longer a quaint little beach town. So now we're on the lookout for somewhere else. We're thinking Matagorda Beach might be the ticket. There is a lot of traffic there, but the beach is often 4-wd access only, and there isn't so much development along there, so I figure with 25 miles of beach and a Jeep, I am bound to find a few feet of solitude...

We really just go for the "beach bummin" thing. Kid and DW like to make sand castles, and I like to sit on my chair in the breeze with a cold beer and watch the waves. Maybe walk into the surf every little while to cool off a bit...

[alazear]

Originally Posted by Camper_bob

I agree there's a significant difference in the road manners between the shorter and longer wheel bases. A few have had problems handling, and had the caster increased only to find it didn't really make much difference on their short rig. Same caster adjustment on a longer rig solves many problems though. And those who added roadmaster reflex (or similar) along with Hellwig sway bar up front report very positive results (whether long or short).

I'm thinking the sumos out back will help mitigate the "rocking" or body roll. Up front between the sway bar and the sumos, my body roll situation was GREATLY improved. So I'm thinking the body roll in the rear might be pushing the front end around somewhat. That's my theory anyhow... I don't know what I'll do. Nothing for a while since I'm dealing with a stolen catalytic converter, inoperable jacks and an inoperable generator right now...

I live just East of San Antonio. Our favorite place on the coast has always been Port Aransas. We generally stay at Pioneer, but have been known to boondock right on the beach. We don't generally go to South Padre any more. Got sick there a few years back, and when we went back, the smell of the island made us gag. Port A has always been a bit more laid back until recently. It's no longer a quaint little beach town. So now we're on the lookout for somewhere else. We're thinking Matagorda Beach might be the ticket. There is a lot of traffic there, but the beach is often 4-wd access only, and there isn't so much development along there, so I figure with 25 miles of beach and a Jeep, I am bound to find a few feet of solitude...

We really just go for the "beach bummin" thing. Kid and DW like to make sand castles, and I like to sit on my chair in the breeze with a cold beer and watch the waves. Maybe walk into the surf every little while to cool off a bit...

Thanks for the tip on caster adjustment. Given my sized rig, might just leave it be.

I noticed big improvements doing the upgrades I did so far when driving without a toad, but when pulling a toad, it's still not great and kind of almost reverts back to it's old pre-upgrade ways wandering around. Discussed with the wife today and we agreed to pull the trigger on a track bar from Super Steer in Grants Pass, OR. Gave them a call and they said a track bar could be the silver bullet for what I'm experiencing. We'll see. I'll be the guinea pig and keep you posted after it gets here.

We camped on the beach in Aransas pre-hurricane. Came to the conclusion we just get too much sand inside doing so, but very cool to do being right there, hearing waves all night. Last time when we were there the town was still rebuilding, post huricane. SPI is way too commercialized for us, but it has the wind so put up with the aspects we don't like because it really is that good for kiting. Have to check out Madagorda sometime. I've heard good things before on it too.

[alazear]

Originally Posted by Randy

The other post about wheel base lenth is right on- If you can get it to tow well behind a pickup, then, behind a longer and heavier MH will be a dream. Also, for fine tuning- You can play with your hitch height and tow bar angle (a little) a bit of pull up or pull down can change your alignment geometry in the front (a little). Your tow bar instrctions will tell you how much variance is acceptable.

Unfortunately, my tow bar angle is pretty fixed now. The manufacture does have some slight tolerances for it's angle allowed, +/- 2-3". I've tried hard to get it right in the middle so the bar is dead flat. To do so, I considered various attachment points on the Jeep bumper/frame, future Jeep suspension upgrades such as bigger tires or a lift, as well as drop hitch solutions that would have been easy and quick to buy. I eventually came to the conclusion the drop hitch solutions would have just pissed me off adding parts to the system. Also, I like my Jeep stock [for now] as it's also my daily driver. This left modifying the hitch itself as a solution...

So, last year I unmounted the stock hitch from the Jayco and I custom welded [very stoutly] a second 2" receiver below the stock 2" receiver. It works well at allowing the bar to run flat and has quite a few miles on it already towing the Jeep. I liked the fact that it kept the Jeep closer to the rig for making turns, etc. over adding a drop extension. Now I'm having second thoughts on keeping the Jeep close..., maybe I should test the set up to see if it'll run better being another foot back using an extension I've got? The problem with some extentions is they reduce the load capacity which is worrisome for towing a toad. Definitely want to be very safe there. Not a place to skimp on being fully bomber.

[Randy]

As a rule of thumb, 0 approach angle for the tow bar is probably best, good call. Another thing I have found, I run low air in my 4runner for off road, but found airing to max it towed better. Would you like me to measre the width of my attachment to the baseplate to compare to yours? Lets not lose sight, my MH drives great without a toad, is 32 feet long and heavier (i think) than yours.

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by alazear

Thanks for the tip on caster adjustment. Given my sized rig, might just leave it be.

I noticed big improvements doing the upgrades I did so far when driving without a toad, but when pulling a toad, it's still not great and kind of almost reverts back to it's old pre-upgrade ways wandering around. Discussed with the wife today and we agreed to pull the trigger on a track bar from Super Steer in Grants Pass, OR. Gave them a call and they said a track bar could be the silver bullet for what I'm experiencing. We'll see. I'll be the guinea pig and keep you posted after it gets here.

We camped on the beach in Aransas pre-hurricane. Came to the conclusion we just get too much sand inside doing so, but very cool to do being right there, hearing waves all night. Last time when we were there the town was still rebuilding, post huricane. SPI is way too commercialized for us, but it has the wind so put up with the aspects we don't like because it really is that good for kiting. Have to check out Madagorda sometime. I've heard good things before on it too.

VERY MUCH looking forward to your writeup on this!!

ETA: It's actually not so much the sand inside that's the issue (we keep a rubber-maid tub full of fresh water right by the steps to rinse our feet before we go in), it's the salt spray all over the outside and underside of the rig that causes problems. I had corrosion problems when my rig was delivered. Camping on the beach has not helped matters. Just about every time I get under my rig, I'm treating something for corrosion. My favorite thing in the whole world is driving home from the coast in the rain. If that doesn't happen, I end up spraying out under the chassis as much as I can with fresh water, but I'll never get it all. Corrosion treatment along the frame and various other parts is on my short-list of repairs/mods/maintenance. If I get the chance, I might start attacking that this winter...

[alazear]

Originally Posted by Camper_bob

VERY MUCH looking forward to your writeup on this!!

Camping on the beach has not helped matters. Just about every time I get under my rig, I'm treating something for corrosion. .

I‘ll be sure to let you know via this thread what I find after installing it. It’s currently backordered, but I was told it should be ready to ship in a week or two. Looks like an install effort similar to the rear sway bar. The upgraded sway bar is supposed to be compatible as well.

My wife, having me as her indentured servant, wants me to be able to drive as far as I can on our trips in a single go. She took the wheel for about an hour on some straight highway driving during this last one and was surprised at the continual micro corrections needed to drive down the road. A good tactic to get her agreement on suspension upgrades. 😃 She’s all in now.

I also noticed corrosion right away too from beach camping. We had a different rig at the time and I made sure to get after it right away too, as well as spray everything down. The tub of water is a great idea. Didn’t think of that. Overall our conclusion was it wasn’t worth the hassle, as cool as it was to be steps from the water.