Electrical Gremlins in a 2015/16 37 FS

[rgolding]

Please do not think I'm complaining or am in any way unhappy with our Seneca 37FS. We've had it since October of 2015 and wouldn't change. We S spend a lot of time in it. So far around 10 months a yea We have 60,000 miles on it and over a 1000 hours on both the Cummins Engine and the Onan Generator. This unit gets used.

A Land Yacht like this is not much different than a boat. It is a hull or a carriage with a whole lot of parts made by different manufacturers. Jayco picks quality parts and assembles them into a great unit.

The 2 year warranty is great! It allows an owner to get the bugs worked out. It also allows you to learn the unit. During the first 2 years, we had a number of learning experiences. Most were corrected or replaced. Some of it was just a learning curve of how to use and work the equipment.

2 items that we got to learn more about, were the 50 amp transfer switch and the electrical 50 amp cord reel. We were on the road when the transfer switch went out. Learned where it was (under the bed in the wall) and how to test it. They dealer sent me a new one and between them and the manufacturer, i was talked through how to install and what it should act like when it is working well.

The second item mentioned was the 50 amp electrical cord reel. This just quit winding. I let the dealer replace it. Just too much for this old man to lift, comfortably.

So, I have experience with both.

About a month ago, we came in to a local campground after a road trip in which the generator was run to keep the cab cool while going down the road. Got to keep the critters happy. Plugged in and I had no power. Period. No Power through the campground pedestal. First thing was check the power pedestal. Yep, power there, just not going in the coach. We were tired, it was Sunday evening. We went home and left the problem to be resolved the next day.

Went ahead and moved the unit the next day to wash and I think get serviced. Anyway, unresolved I took it down the road. Called the dealer
service department and they were going to help me with my problem. Setup after going down the road and everything is working fine.

I need to Submit this - then I'll continue. Sorry.

[rgolding]

Okay, moved the unit from one campground on Thursday to another. Distance of driving, 2 miles. Before I left, everything was fine.

Plugged in at second campground and again no power.

I thought, the resolution to the problem was that I created a carbon spot on the electrical reel. I always pulled all the cord out, no matter how much I needed because of the idea of a magnet.

When I plugged back in the first time I only pulled out a needed amount of cord and that is what I've been doing for the last month.

Second time, same problem, I've got to find a solution.

I purchased a 50 amp power pig tail and hooked to the connections for the 4 wires to the reel. I use an unconnected female power plug to protect the 50 amp plug. So I have no exposed male prongs of a 50 amp plug. Thought sure the problem was the reel and this would bypass it. No change.

With much gnashing of teeth, I prayed over it, well said words and decided to go ahead and leave town heading south for the Winter. Drather work on it in warm weather, anyway.

Drove about 350 miles today. Got to campsite, for the heck of it plugged in using the normal reel and everything is fine.

GREMLINS!!!!!

I didn't check the extra 50 amp pig tail, but I bet it will work, also. My testing yesterday, included the testing of the transfer switch. This is done with all power off and everything was nice and "springy". It tested fine.

Through all this both times, generator has carried the power load without a problem. Will call the service department Monday, just to update them, but anyone have any ideas?

Sign me "BEFUDDLED"

[rgolding]

OHHHH, RobbbyR and Slowpoke, I thought you'd be all over this one. I guess my problems bigger than I thought. Since the problem isn't at the reell, I'm guessing the next time it raises its ugly head, I'll get under the bed with the meter and see if the power is getting to the transfer switch. 50amp is big time shock factor, but I'm trying to figure how to "pigtail"around it, if it is the distribution switch. I have always carried an extra water pump to resolve any problem there, now I'm thinking about carrying an extra power transfer switch.

This type of crap drives me crazy, but also kinda of part of the adventure.

[SloPoke]

Sorry Ric, have been offline all day yesterday getting ready for winter here in Utah.

So to your issue, Do you have an EMS wired into this combination on your Seneca? If so, where in the system is it wired?

You seem to have an intermittent issue, Is your cord reel always pulled all the way out when you have an issue? What happens when you have the power connected, and then hand roll with reel in very slowly? It could be a mechanical contact that works at one point, and does not work at another depending on where the reel is sitting.

IF I understand correctly, running on the Genny - there is no problems with the AC systems... only when on shore power and once in a while?

Going to run out and blow out the water lines in our Seneca this afternoon...

[Robbbyr]

Also sorry Ric, yesterday was engine and generator service day!

Fortunately I have not had any difficulties with my cord reel or my transfer switch. So I can't relate any repair experiences with those items.

What I have done relating to my cord reel was to unwire the reel from the "house" output line leading inside to the transfer switch. I did that so I could install a receptacle in the cord reel compartment to plug in my Hughes Autoformer. Then I installed a male plug pigtail connected to the original "house" line. That way I can unplug the Autoformer and plug the "house" line directly back into the reel outlet if needed. You void the warranty on the Autoformer if you modify its cord, so this mod was necessary to be able to plug the Autoformer in. A bonus (I guess) is that I could bypass my cord reel completely if I ever needed with the 50-amp extension cord I carry.

I used a similar system of receptacles and male plug pigtails on my EMS installation. If it ever completely fries I can bypass it quickly waiting for mine to be repaired. I just try to be prepared for "worst case scenarios" I guess!

[rgolding]

Thanks for replying guys, I had to vent somewhere and you guys ask great questions.

Yes Slopoke, only problem is with shore power, genset works fine. And I did try rolling the reel, thinking maybe a carboned spot. No change.

Robbbyr, I wired around the reel, much like you did, creating a long extension cord on a reel. Problem still existed.

All this is exactly the same as the first time it happened about a month ago.

Drove 350 miles yesterday and tried plugging in at new campground, all is well. Remember, I said I tested 50 amp and 30 amp power with a converter at the post of the campground and the power was fine. So don't think it was the campground's power. The first time this happened, it was a different campground, than this last one, where the Gremlins showed their head.

So drove another 275 miles today and AC is working great! Bride is drying her hair right now.

Bought the supplies today to wire around the transfer switch. Those Gremlins will be found eventually.

As I work on this more and more, it becomes less and less of a problem. My spouse may not agree with this last statement.

Still considering getting a spare transfer switch, just like I carry a spare water pump. Plan to talk to the tech at our dealer, tomorrow. They love my adventures.

[Robbbyr]

Originally Posted by rgolding

Yes Slopoke, only problem is with shore power, genset works fine.

Robbbyr, I wired around the reel, much like you did, creating a long extension cord on a reel. Problem still existed.

Drove 350 miles yesterday and tried plugging in at new campground, all is well. Remember, I said I tested 50 amp and 30 amp power with a converter at the post of the campground and the power was fine. So don't think it was the campground's power. The first time this happened, it was a different campground, than this last one, where the Gremlins showed their head.

So drove another 275 miles today and AC is working great! Bride is drying her hair right now.

Bought the supplies today to wire around the transfer switch. Those Gremlins will be found eventually.

As I work on this more and more, it becomes less and less of a problem. My spouse may not agree with this last statement.

Still considering getting a spare transfer switch, just like I carry a spare water pump. Plan to talk to the tech at our dealer, tomorrow. They love my adventures.

I'm certain you have checked all the connections for tightness, making the transfer switch the next logical culprit. What model does your unit have? When you had to swap yours out before, did you get one of the "quiet" ones with a DC hold-in coil that supposedly eliminates the AC "hum" that many of our switches exhibit?

[SloPoke]

One thing that comes to mind ... Linemen deal with this every year at the end of fall.... The temperature has dropped and many connections that are not having any issues during the warmer months, start to have issues when it cools down. Copper shrinks a lot when things are colder, connections go bad that were not having issues when it was warm. Have all of these connections been checked for a loose / questionable connection with the cord assembly to where it is connected to the transfer switch?

[LI-Camper]

A similar issue happened to my Greyhawk. The power cord attaches to the MH in a junction box at the back of the compartment where the power cord is stored. The wire nuts connecting the power cord to the MH had loosened just enough that the wires made intermittent contact. So if you haven’t already checked, look at the box where the power cord connects to the MH. Good luck ��

[SloPoke]

After reading this a few more times...

If, after ruling out the reel cord AND the bypass cord is always having the same problem / working conditions - then the next likely point of failure is the Xfer switch. We are on our second one in our 2015 Seneca.

So... in troubleshooting that - a couple more questions...

Do you have the transfer switch "Hot Switch" between the Genny and the Shore Power? by that I mean, is the genny running when you are hooking to the pedestal? or visa versa - starting the genny up and then unplugging from the pedestal?

Next... do you shut down both AC units when you are connecting to shore power - then start them back up after connected? or do you let the Transfer switch do that?

These two are relative to the transfer switch taking / engaging loads from the Seneca. the contacts on our old one don't look as "heavy duty" as I would expect to see on a 50A contactor that switches a motor or hermetic compressor (like our AC units have) It is possible that the contacts have pitted or as you mentioned (carbon buildup) and some of the closing of that relay are not making good contact.

[rgolding]

Good morning,

RobbbyR said - "I'm certain you have checked all the connections for tightness, making the transfer switch the next logical culprit. What model does your unit have? When you had to swap yours out before, did you get one of the "quiet" ones with a DC hold-in coil that supposedly eliminates the AC "hum" that many of our switches exhibit?"

As I sit here with all the electricity I need and the spouse is asleep above the transfer switch, I can't check the Model Number, however, yes, I checked that all connections are tight and the transfer switch is totally quiet without any type of Hum.

SloPoke asked -"Do you have the transfer switch "Hot Switch" between the Genny and the Shore Power? by that I mean, is the genny running when you are hooking to the pedestal? or visa versa - starting the genny up and then unplugging from the pedestal?

Next... do you shut down both AC units when you are connecting to shore power - then start them back up after connected? or do you let the Transfer switch do that?"

Because of the first time of having trouble with the transfer switch and suspecting we might have switched it hot. I make sure we are always totally unplugged before the Generator is ever started and vice a versa. The Generator is always off before the shore Power is plugged in. We hardly ever use the front AC, so it is always off. We always try hard to have the back AC off when hooking up shore power, but it has not been 100% with it being off. Because of cooler weather, I can be certain it was not on when this problem started. We never let the Generator do the "autostart". I just don't care for that.

Steve, I got your private message and I appreciate your offer very much. I've often wondered if these transfer switches were heavy enough for what they do.

Guys, as I said at the start of this thread reply, right now I have all the shore power I need. Meter is reading between 117 - 123 volts. I'm just chasing "Gremlins".

[SloPoke]

so... to review:

** connections have been checked / tightened

** Cord reel can be bypassed and when the issue occurs, it occurs on both the cord and the bypass

** Issue occurs randomly, usually with a cycle of Genny running between episodes


Now a few more questions....
does the cord reel wire directly into the Xfer switch? or into something else?

When the Gremlin is present, are ALL outlets dead? or just some? or are just the Microwave / TV's are being looked at to determine if the problems are happening?

Ric, you sound like you have some experience with electrical wiring... I'm not asking you to do something that you dont feel comfortable with - have you put a voltmeter on the input terminals of the Xfer Switch and again on the output terminals?

Did I miss this one? Are you running any EMS?

[rgolding]

Originally Posted by SloPoke

so... to review:

** connections have been checked / tightened

** Cord reel can be bypassed and when the issue occurs, it occurs on both the cord and the bypass

** Issue occurs randomly, usually with a cycle of Genny running between episodes


Now a few more questions....
does the cord reel wire directly into the Xfer switch? or into something else?

When the Gremlin is present, are ALL outlets dead? or just some? or are just the Microwave / TV's are being looked at to determine if the problems are happening?

Ric, you sound like you have some experience with electrical wiring... I'm not asking you to do something that you dont feel comfortable with - have you put a voltmeter on the input terminals of the Xfer Switch and again on the output terminals?

Did I miss this one? Are you running any EMS?

** connections have been checked / tightened


Yes, and I couldn't get a turn on anything

** Cord reel can be bypassed and when the issue occurs, it occurs on both the cord and the bypass

Yes

** Issue occurs randomly, usually with a cycle of Genny running between episodes

It has happened twice, once with the generator just being shut off. Once with the Generator not run in weeks. Once in a hot, dry environment. Once in a wet, humid environment

does the cord reel wire directly into the Xfer switch? or into something else?
I believe directly to the switch. Can't follow the wire all the way.

When the Gremlin is present, are ALL outlets dead?
Yes

or just some?

All

or are just the Microwave / TV's are being looked at to determine if the problems are happening?

Have not messed with inverter, when this is happening. Generator is usable and everything works

Did I miss this one? Are you running any EMS?

Our transfer switch is a Progressive Dynamics, Inc. Model PD52DCS. I believe it has surge protection and low voltage protection built in to it. When the gremlins raised their head, I checked for power at the pedestal with one of those little reverse polarity LED indicators. Got 2 yellows and no red, which it is suppose to read for good power. Next time I will check with a digital read out. [/B]


Currently, sitting in Perry, Florida and with shore power reading 118 volts. Called the Techs at MH2GO today and they want me to check power coming in on each leg at the switch, next time it happens.

Removed all pigtails today and put back to original configuration through the reel. Its back to normal/standard/how it was before the last failure and I'm challenging it to do something.

As I typed this, I did not think about how the transfer switch would protect the system if voltage was low. I looked at the transfer switch, but did not check it for LED's that might have been lit. Shy about touching the switch with power to it. I always unplug everything before I get near that switch.

I won't have the Seneca back to the local C of E Campgrounds at home until late March of 2019. However, I've camped there for years and consider it to be one of the best set of campgrounds we've stayed in anyplace in North America.

THANKS FOR THE INTEREST BY EVERYONE.

[Robbbyr]

Ric,
You have a newer transfer switch than mine; it includes built-in surge supression, LED status lights, and a DC coil for contactor actuation (as compared to my AC hold-in coil which can "hum").

Is the XFER switch accessible enough to view the LEDs when in operation? They might be a big help in narrowing down any future issues.

[SloPoke]

Originally Posted by rgolding

Did I miss this one? Are you running any EMS?

Our transfer switch is a Progressive Dynamics, Inc. Model PD52DCS. I believe it has surge protection and low voltage protection built in to it. When the gremlins raised their head, I checked for power at the pedestal with one of those little reverse polarity LED indicators. Got 2 yellows and no red, which it is suppose to read for good power. Next time I will check with a digital read out. [/B]


As I typed this, I did not think about how the transfer switch would protect the system if voltage was low. I looked at the transfer switch, but did not check it for LED's that might have been lit. Shy about touching the switch with power to it. I always unplug everything before I get near that switch.
.

I also read that your model transfer switch will also shut down all power if the X and Y phases are not out of phase with each other. We found this to be uncommon, but have found it in a park in Davie FL - it really only had 30A service to it, but someone at the park thought that they could wire a 50A service outlet to the single phase 30 supply. Since most motorhomes/trailers never have a 240v appliance - they don't notice it unless you take a meter to the outlet.

Your Xfer switch manual says it would fault on that wiring. (as it should)

[rgolding]

Robbbyr, You asked - "Is the XFER switch accessible enough to view the LEDs when in operation? They might be a big help in narrowing down any future issues. "


The switch is under the bed, in a wall compartment. When replacing this switch the first time, while waiting for the new on to arrive, I rebuilt the hidden compartment to be accessable by just raising the bed. I also put the bed platform on shocks for easier lifting. Now, having said that, it is accessable to see the LED's with the bed raised and the compartment lid removed. My next test is to look at these LED's with the power plugged in. It was not on my radar last time the gremlins showed, because I was convinced the problem was the reel.

[rgolding]

Steve,

The campgrounds where both failures occurred were Corps of Engineers Facilities on the lake near our town and where I held a concession lease for 25 years, running a marina. I'm not saying this couldn't happen, but I can certainly have them look in to it the next time I'm there and this happens. It will certainly be suspect, if we go until Spring 2019 with out a reoccurrence.

We are now at our Winter campground in the middle of Florida. Ran the generator today for ac while driving the last 4 hours and when we got here plugged in the coach with no problems.

Dem Gremlins continue to hide, but we'll flush them out.