Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
Jayco RV Owners Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-06-2019, 07:19 PM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Moorpark
Posts: 52
Having house battery issues?

Hi All,

I'm having a new issue with the house batteries in our Seneca discharging quickly. I'm still in the process of troubleshooting this (more to come) but I came across a very informative link explaining RV batteries and single stage vs "smart" converters/chargers.

Good info if you are having house battery issues.

http://www.trekwithus.com/rv-batteri...ies-in-our-rv/
ralett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2019, 06:06 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
Robbbyr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Akron
Posts: 3,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralett View Post
Hi All,

I'm having a new issue with the house batteries in our Seneca discharging quickly. I'm still in the process of troubleshooting this (more to come) but I came across a very informative link explaining RV batteries and single stage vs "smart" converters/chargers.
As answered in another thread, your Seneca certainly has a "smart" charger/converter installed. My 2014 Seneca came with a Progressive Dynamics unit that works very well. It certainly is possible your converter has a problem, and your investigation will hopefully help you narrow down a cause soon.

I can tell you that you would not be the first owner to have "marginal" batteries from the factory. Mine failed early in my ownership, I had one with a bad cell that was draining the other 3 batteries. So if you haven't tested the batteries individually that might be a first step.
__________________
Rob R.
Akron, OH
2014 Seneca 37TS
Toads: 2019 Ford Edge ST or 2013 Ford Focus ST
Robbbyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2019, 06:41 PM   #3
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Moorpark
Posts: 52
RobbyR, thank for the info on the converter.

The rig (only 1 year old) came with 4 Interstate RV Marine batteries installed. We normally boon dock and never had a problem with battery life until the last trip out. We could not it make through the night without the batteries discharging to the point that the frig started alarming, then the Carbon monoxide detector started chirping, inverter kicked off with "low batt" alarm, etc.

Took the batteries to Interstate and their electronic gizmo said they were all fine. However, using a cheap hydrometer I found significant variance from cell to cell on all but 1 of the batteries. Several of the cells were below 1.10 even though the batteries all read about 12.4 volts.

After charging them on my Schumacher charger for several hours, none of the batteries read over 13.05 volts with a couple of them reading just under 13 v. Within 3-4 hours of being taken off the charger the batteries had drifted down into the 12.7 v region while just sitting with nothing connected to them.

I have a load tester and a better (glass, temperature correcting) hydrometer on the way from Amazon. I'll test them again but I am beginning to suspect that I'll be replacing them.

I'm surprised that new batteries would go bad after 12 months of moderate use which is why I started thinking about the quality of the converter. If the Seneca has a "smart" converter that adjusts during charging then it has to be just poor quality batteries.

Maybe time to do the 12 volt to 6 volt switch...I doubt that batteries are covered under my extended warranty.
ralett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2019, 07:00 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Robbbyr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Akron
Posts: 3,196
I replaced my O.E. Harris RV/Marine batteries with Trojan T-106 6-volt batteries and have never looked back. I also installed Trojan's "HydroLink" battery watering system that makes filling the batteries very simple. No mess, and no chance of overfilling and spilling. If you are not familiar with that system here is a link: https://www.trojanbattery.com/produc...tering-system/

It literally takes me 2 minutes to top off the batteries with my HydroLink system.
__________________
Rob R.
Akron, OH
2014 Seneca 37TS
Toads: 2019 Ford Edge ST or 2013 Ford Focus ST
Robbbyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2019, 09:31 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
SloPoke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Kingman AZ and where our Seneca is today.
Posts: 3,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralett View Post
RobbyR, thank for the info on the converter.

The rig (only 1 year old) came with 4 Interstate RV Marine batteries installed. We normally boon dock and never had a problem with battery life until the last trip out. We could not it make through the night without the batteries discharging to the point that the frig started alarming, then the Carbon monoxide detector started chirping, inverter kicked off with "low batt" alarm, etc.

Took the batteries to Interstate and their electronic gizmo said they were all fine. However, using a cheap hydrometer I found significant variance from cell to cell on all but 1 of the batteries. Several of the cells were below 1.10 even though the batteries all read about 12.4 volts.

After charging them on my Schumacher charger for several hours, none of the batteries read over 13.05 volts with a couple of them reading just under 13 v. Within 3-4 hours of being taken off the charger the batteries had drifted down into the 12.7 v region while just sitting with nothing connected to them.

I have a load tester and a better (glass, temperature correcting) hydrometer on the way from Amazon. I'll test them again but I am beginning to suspect that I'll be replacing them.

I'm surprised that new batteries would go bad after 12 months of moderate use which is why I started thinking about the quality of the converter. If the Seneca has a "smart" converter that adjusts during charging then it has to be just poor quality batteries.

Maybe time to do the 12 volt to 6 volt switch...I doubt that batteries are covered under my extended warranty.
First question... Were the 4 batteries separated from each other when they were tested?

Were the 4 batteries separated from each other when they were charged on your schumacher charger?

If they were not separated from each other... those tests are not really valid when it comes to isolating a bad cell.

Without more details on how these were tested, charged and such... this might just be one of these batteries has a bad cell. That in itself can draw down the 4 battery array in a way that these symptoms would begin to show.
__________________
Steve & Stacy with Jasper (Australian Cattle dog)
2015 Seneca 36FK
Custom 27' flatbed trailer hauling:
07 Toyota FJC & Yamaha Kodiak 400 ATV

SloPoke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2019, 10:37 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Manchester Center
Posts: 1,519
One of the first things I noticed when looking at rv units at dealers was that the majority are not plugged in and more than once I saw salesmen walking around with battery jumper boxes. Several times I had to wait for someone to jump the unit to get the lights to come on. It really is hard to tell how much abuse the batteries saw while sitting on the dealers lot. My batteries were noticeably weaker at one year so I replaced with 6v units.
RVermont is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2019, 11:04 PM   #7
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Moorpark
Posts: 52
Good questions.

The batteries were all tested individually, meaning they were not connected to each other or any load.

I did charge them 2 at a time using the charger and a set of jumper cables from one to another, but all that was disconnected for measurements and tests.

Right now one is measure 12.8 volts, two are at 12.7 and one at 12.6. They have been off the charger the first set have been off the charger for about 12 hours, the other set for about 4 hours.
ralett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2019, 08:02 AM   #8
RPR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Owens Cross Roads
Posts: 3,212
Battery watering systems. Was in the electric forklift battery business for a long time before retirement. Watering systems are great but not full proof. Manually check the water level from time to time. Float valves in the caps can stick open, stick closed and even detact from the cap. A watering gun should have come with the system. Should have a regulator and filter has part of the watering gun. Do not remove these. Too much pressure will cause the system to over fill. Dirt particles cause the float valves to stick and clog the vents in the caps. The hydrogen gas produced during charging is coming out so if the battery gets over filled the excess water and acid is coming out.
RPR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2019, 03:15 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
SloPoke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Kingman AZ and where our Seneca is today.
Posts: 3,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralett View Post
Good questions.

The batteries were all tested individually, meaning they were not connected to each other or any load.

I did charge them 2 at a time using the charger and a set of jumper cables from one to another, but all that was disconnected for measurements and tests.

Right now one is measure 12.8 volts, two are at 12.7 and one at 12.6. They have been off the charger the first set have been off the charger for about 12 hours, the other set for about 4 hours.
Here is a temperature compensated chart I refer to... for State of charge evaluation. Things to remember that the battery must be disconnected, and left at rest for about 12 hours for a valid measurement.
File:Pb battery state of charge.png - OrbSWARM

What are the voltage measurements after 24 hours at idle (not hooked up)
__________________
Steve & Stacy with Jasper (Australian Cattle dog)
2015 Seneca 36FK
Custom 27' flatbed trailer hauling:
07 Toyota FJC & Yamaha Kodiak 400 ATV

SloPoke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2019, 04:09 PM   #10
Site Team
 
Mustang65's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Clearwater, FL area
Posts: 5,196
Take the batteries into a REPUTABLE battery dealer and have them test it for you. Not all, but some places will even test the specific gravity of each cell. This will give you an idea as to if the batteries are good or bad, and you can decide what you want to do after testing the batteries. Fully charge them for 24 hours, before taking them in for the test.

Don
My Registry

RVing with SOLAR
__________________
2013 Jayco Eagle 284BHS
2012 Ford F150XLT, EcoBoost w/3.73,Max Tow Pkg.
Our Solar Album https://www.jaycoowners.com/album.php?albumid=329
Mustang65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2019, 04:46 PM   #11
RPR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Owens Cross Roads
Posts: 3,212
Make sure they put a load on the batteries not just voltage and specific gravity readings. Those readings may be good but something like a pin hole in a separator (separates negative and positive plates) will show up under load.
RPR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2019, 05:24 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
SloPoke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Kingman AZ and where our Seneca is today.
Posts: 3,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang65 View Post
Take the batteries into a REPUTABLE battery dealer and have them test it for you. Not all, but some places will even test the specific gravity of each cell. This will give you an idea as to if the batteries are good or bad, and you can decide what you want to do after testing the batteries. Fully charge them for 24 hours, before taking them in for the test.

Don
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPR View Post
Make sure they put a load on the batteries not just voltage and specific gravity readings. Those readings may be good but something like a pin hole in a separator (separates negative and positive plates) will show up under load.
Totally agree with both of these comments...

Since it takes some time and effort to disconnect the 4 batteries, I did not want to have to take them to a place... I purchased this same Load Tester, and use it frequently.
https://www.grainger.com/product/OTC...-Tester-45NU83

With the 4 batteries in our Seneca, I wanted to be able to perform a comprehensive test over a few days, but not have to shut down my fridge and other stuff if I needed to get into the Seneca for something at night... I did it basically like this.

I disconnected two of the 4-batteries from the Seneca's electrical system so that two batteries were running the coach and being charged.

The two that are disconnected - get to rest for 12 hours before the first test.
1A Resting voltage taken to two decimal places - temperature compensation included. (Keep test leads connected)
1B Resting Hydrometer test on each cell - temperature compensated.
1C Load Test - Full 10 Seconds... note the digital voltage at the end of test and again after 15 seconds.
Note all readings on paper

Repeat 1A - 1C for battery #2

Leave Battery #1 and #2 disconnected for 24 hours and repeat tests 1A - 1C again and note any differences. (pay attention to specific gravity readings if one cell is significantly changed / out of range with the compensated chart).

Then I reconnect Battery #1 and #2 to the Seneca and remove #3 and #4 and repeat the tests in the same way as the first two.


This was the only way I could find out which battery was causing our problems.. It was really easy to compare the test results and realize that one of the batteries had a bad cell and was in the process of failing. Because all 4 batteries are in parallel, the bad cell battery was dragging down the remaining 3 good ones as a whole as they were all trying to charge the bad battery to keep it up with their charge state. Using the Hydrometer was the only way to really identify that a bad cell was approaching, especially when compared between the 24 hour separation of readings after the load testing. It really did not not show up right after it is charged, but became more apparent after a longer duration of time in rest mode.

I ended up replacing all 4 batteries at the same time - since they were already 4 years old. I still have the three remaining ones still in use today for our Home backup-UPS (almost a year later)
__________________
Steve & Stacy with Jasper (Australian Cattle dog)
2015 Seneca 36FK
Custom 27' flatbed trailer hauling:
07 Toyota FJC & Yamaha Kodiak 400 ATV

SloPoke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2019, 05:33 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
SloPoke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Kingman AZ and where our Seneca is today.
Posts: 3,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by SloPoke View Post
Here is a temperature compensated chart I refer to... for State of charge evaluation. Things to remember that the battery must be disconnected, and left at rest for about 12 hours for a valid measurement.
File:Pb battery state of charge.png - OrbSWARM

What are the voltage measurements after 24 hours at idle (not hooked up)
The Forum keeps forcing HTTPS on url's that are not SSL. I can't get around this... so here is the image of the link that wont work.
Attached Thumbnails
Pb_battery_state_of_charge.jpg  
__________________
Steve & Stacy with Jasper (Australian Cattle dog)
2015 Seneca 36FK
Custom 27' flatbed trailer hauling:
07 Toyota FJC & Yamaha Kodiak 400 ATV

SloPoke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2019, 05:36 PM   #14
RPR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Owens Cross Roads
Posts: 3,212
Glad you are up and going. Charger looks for total voltage not individual battery so those good ones were taking a beating with the charger trying to get the overall voltage up. Guess we could really get wild and have a meter for each battery!
RPR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 11:33 PM   #15
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Moorpark
Posts: 52
So after charging all my batteries individually (they are out of the coach, on my workbench) and then letting them sit for at least 12 hours, I tested all the cells with a high quality hydrometer and found two batteries with 1 dead cell each. All the other cells had low hydrometer readings as compared to the measured voltage on the charged batteries. They all measured between 12.65 and 12.85 volts prior to the hydrometer readings. Hydrometer readings on two of the batteries showed significant variability between the cells.

I then rigged up a constant load test using an inverter, a 250w shop light and a 110v electric clock. The calculated and measured amperage for this load was just a tad over 10 amps.

The inverter shuts down when the input voltage falls below 11 volts, so the clock stops indicating how long the battery supplied the constant load. My batteries measured 1:13, 2:11, 4:22 and 4:37, far short of the expected 8-9 hours for a 10 amp load on the 90 amp hour batteries.

Even after running multiple "de-sulphation" charges on the batteries, neither the hydrometer readings nor the run times on my 10 amp load test improved substantially.

So, it looks like it is time for new batteries. I think I'm going with 6 volts, either Trojan or US Battery. The US Battery units have slightly better amp hour ratings and cost slightly less than the Trojans.

Anyone have any experience using 6 volt US Battery deep cycles? I know the Tojan's are well thought of...
ralett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2019, 06:46 AM   #16
Site Team
 
Mustang65's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Clearwater, FL area
Posts: 5,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralett View Post
The US Battery units have slightly better amp hour ratings and cost slightly less than the Trojans.

Anyone have any experience using 6 volt US Battery deep cycles? I know the Tojan's are well thought of...
I originally was going to go with USBATTERY, but we were leaving for Colorado in 3 days and the local distributer could not get them in time, so I went with the Trojan T145 (260Ah) 6volt batteries. This year they have been in the TT for 7 years. Granted they are no longer 260Ah, but still get the job done. USBATTERY is one of the TOP batteries and most are manufactured here in the US.

As mentioned in another thread, when the current Trojans are no longer useable, I will be replacing them with (3) 12VDC batteries from USBATTERY. I will then do updates as to how they are performing.

I still recommend that you install a battery monitoring system and a disconnect switch, so when the batteries voltage drops to 12.2volts, you turn off all your 12Volt loads, until you can charge the batteries, or you will be throwing away good money by purchasing expensive batteries.

USBATTERY 6 volt products

DonMy Registry

RVing with SOLAR
__________________
2013 Jayco Eagle 284BHS
2012 Ford F150XLT, EcoBoost w/3.73,Max Tow Pkg.
Our Solar Album https://www.jaycoowners.com/album.php?albumid=329
Mustang65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2019, 07:34 AM   #17
RPR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Owens Cross Roads
Posts: 3,212
One of several specs to check on batteries. Weight. After many years working in the battery business found some manufacturers had plastic spacers to fill in the space created by thin plates and short plates. Also fewer plates but higher specific gravity than normal makes “new battery” readings look good but shorten the battery life.
RPR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2019, 12:24 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
SloPoke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Kingman AZ and where our Seneca is today.
Posts: 3,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralett View Post
So after charging all my batteries individually (they are out of the coach, on my workbench) and then letting them sit for at least 12 hours, I tested all the cells with a high quality hydrometer and found two batteries with 1 dead cell each. .
So glad you found it... I carry our Hydrometer in the Seneca now.... our batteries always seem to fail when we are on the road.
__________________
Steve & Stacy with Jasper (Australian Cattle dog)
2015 Seneca 36FK
Custom 27' flatbed trailer hauling:
07 Toyota FJC & Yamaha Kodiak 400 ATV

SloPoke is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Jayco, Inc. or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2002-2016 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.