Lithium battery in current footprint

[C42]

Hi all -


My house battery (only 1) - is located on the back, exterior wall above the bumper on my Greyhawk. The battery, although new, is simply not a good enough quality to keep the charge above 12v. I would like to replace it with a higher amperage LifePo4 battery. My question is: Can I plug the new lithium battery into the current house battery location? I have an on-board generator, a 2000w inverter and will pick up a 500w suitcase solar for emergency backup. I don't want to install a whole battery bank. (No skills to do so and no reliable and quick technical support where I live that isn't two hours away with a month's long waiting list - oh - and you have to leave the RV there while they "get to it".


So - I need the simplest solution possible. If a higher quality lithium battery will work in that space - that would be ideal.


What do you think?


Thanks in advance...

[LukeDagny]

LiPo batteries charge at a higher voltage than traditional lead/acid batteries. Depending on your unit, the existing electrical system can be used, but with different settings.

I just replaced my house battery with a larger capacity AGM battery and didn't have to make any changes.

My concern is your location shows as northern NY. I believe you get cold Winters LiPo batteries don't like the cold.

[C42]

Hi -

Thanks for your reply. As to the cold weather, we will not be here during the coldest part of the year :-)...I will be traveling indefinitely and plan on leaving in early October. I know they don't like cold - so -

As to the voltage issue - I have read that while lithium may charge more slowly past 80%, they still will charge. I use 4 -12v 500A AGM batteries in my home to power my electricity, so I am very familiar with them. The problem I have with them (in general) is that once you have discharged past 50% you start shortening their life span. Get to 20% and you have dropped years off their usefulness. (I had this exact thing happen with a careless house sitter...).


So - the AGM have to really be monitored several times a day to ensure they are not dropping below a level that would hurt their longevity. This is the chart I use at home..fyi. I strive to always keep them above 80%. That is the recommended level and at that point you charge them from a generator. At that level of discharge, they will last for several years. (I have had them last for 7 years.)


I would like to have something a little less maintenance-heavy from the point of continual monitoring - thus the question about LifePO4 batteries.

[pconroy]

You can't just swap... Well, you can........ But....


I forget what model you said you had, but I think you had a newer unit. Units past 2018, 2019 are likely going to be Lithium ready on the converter side. Older units, like mine, need more $$$$$$ to go Lithium.


You need to think about your converter, your alternator and your weather before plunking in a LiFePO4 battery.


Like I said - you >>could<< do it, but you might not get the benefits.

[pconroy]

Originally Posted by C42

Hi -

Thanks for your reply. As to the cold weather, we will not be here during the coldest part of the year :-)...I will be traveling indefinitely and plan on leaving in early October. I know they don't like cold - so -

Lithiums CANNOT be charged below freezing. The batteries will be damaged.


If you live in the cold, like me, then you need to plan on what you'll do with your Lithium batteries when the temps drop below 32*F.


There are options... But you need to pick one.

[C42]

Hi there -


Just wanted to circle back a bit on this. I understand charging below 32 degrees is an big issue. As I understand it there are self-heating LifePO4 batteries. Does that "fix" the no charge in freezing weather issue? Or have you all heard otherwise?


Regardless, I have to come up with a better battery solution. I destroyed one in 3 months and I truly am very conservative with my usage. It made no difference. (I am also trying to test to see what else might be draining the battery...but.)


AGM's are just such a pain to deal with - I deal with them every day in my home. Running and checking battery voltages multiple times a day is simply very difficult and if you miss those checks - well, then you will have damaged the battery capacity permanently. There must be a better way!



Thanks so much for your help!

[RogerR]

I love my Renogy lithium and as I have not camped below 32 for many years and have no desire or expectation to camp below 32. But that said we camped at Great Sand Dunes last year and it snowed at night. But since my battery was inside an unheated area and it warmed up in the daylight when my solar would kick in, no problems
Yes they make self heated batteries that will work ok to charge in cold temps.
But in my case, the battery would provide the power I need below 32 and I could have turned the solar off if I suspected battery temp was below 32.

My Renogy has a temperature prob and won't take a charge even if I forgot.

Plus, lower weight, no over discharge worries, no water to add, is just all thumbs up for lithium.

[ARoamer]

Originally Posted by pconroy

You can't just swap... Well, you can........ But....

You need to think about your converter, your alternator and your weather before plunking in a LiFePO4 battery.

Like I said - you >>could<< do it, but you might not get the benefits.

Being a MH, my major concern would be if your alternator is trying to charge a nearly dead lithium battery. A decent quality 100AH lithium can draw 100 Amps of charge current if nearly discharged, your alternator, depending on it's specs, may or may not like such a load. Your converter, even if not lithium compatible, will still give around a 80% charge, which is not a huge deal, you're still ahead of a lead acid battery's capacity, and your lithium will likely even have a longer lifespan by not being fully charged most of the time. A decent quality lithium battery will not allow charge or discharge if temps are not within it's safe parameters. Heaters and insulation can be added if needed, I've been down that road!

[C42]

Originally Posted by ARoamer

Being a MH, my major concern would be if your alternator is trying to charge a nearly dead lithium battery. A decent quality 100AH lithium can draw 100 Amps of charge current if nearly discharged, your alternator, depending on it's specs, may or may not like such a load. Your converter, even if not lithium compatible, will still give around a 80% charge, which is not a huge deal, you're still ahead of a lead acid battery's capacity, and your lithium will likely even have a longer lifespan by not being fully charged most of the time. A decent quality lithium battery will not allow charge or discharge if temps are not within it's safe parameters. Heaters and insulation can be added if needed, I've been down that road!

My current battery is not lithium. I do understand the distinct advantages of lithium...and have been collecting insights from those who have them - the pros and cons that they have discovered. (The marketing, of course, is amazing! ;-)

Originally Posted by ARoamer

Your converter, even if not lithium compatible, will still give around a 80% charge, which is not a huge deal, you're still ahead of a lead acid battery's capacity, and your lithium will likely even have a longer lifespan by not being fully charged most of the time.

I think some of the concerns I have seen expressed may be because my MH is from 2005? While I love it, I have been told I will need to make changes to my current electrical setup in order to use lithium. Since I am not an electrician - and I've already asked two RV repair/maintenance shops up here whether they had installed a lithium battery and made these changes - both said "no" - I am concerned it may be beyond my capabilities.

I have read that the LiFePO4 battery will charge past 80% - just very slowly. But, regardless, I agree that the advantages still outweigh the disadvantages - if it will work without extensive re-work.

Thanks so much for your input - I appreciate it greatly!

[pconroy]

Originally Posted by C42

I think some of the concerns I have seen expressed may be because my MH is from 2005? While I love it, I have been told I will need to make changes to my current electrical setup in order to use lithium. Since I am not an electrician - and I've already asked two RV repair/maintenance shops up here whether they had installed a lithium battery and made these changes - both said "no" - I am concerned it may be beyond my capabilities.

Yeah, a 2005 is going to need work to become Lithium ready.

Based on your other threads about where you're headed and the battery discharge issues you're facing, I'd be tempted to stay with the "Cheap, Walmart Lead Acid Battery" approach until you learn a bit more about why the house battery is getting discharged so quickly.

What research have you done into solar? I've got lead acid (SLA) batteries and I keep 'em charged up with a solar panel on the roof.

If you're headed to the border, seems to me "sun" is going to be plentiful.

[pconroy]

Real quick - you asked if the self-heating batteries solve the "can't charge below freezing" problem. Yes, it does. But it's a little of "robbing Peter" in that the heaters use the battery to heat 'em up.

But it does work.
Less expensive Li batteries will simply have a "low temperature cutoff" which is a computer and temperature sensor that simply prevents charging below 32*F.

Cheap Li batteries have nuttin - and you have to watch the thermometer yourself

[C42]

Originally Posted by pconroy

Yeah, a 2005 is going to need work to become Lithium ready.

Based on your other threads about where you're headed and the battery discharge issues you're facing, I'd be tempted to stay with the "Cheap, Walmart Lead Acid Battery" approach until you learn a bit more about why the house battery is getting discharged so quickly.

That is actually what I'm doing right now. I am definitely not going to put another battery in there until I figure out what is going on with the current setup.

What research have you done into solar? I've got lead acid (SLA) batteries and I keep 'em charged up with a solar panel on the roof.

Well, I live 100% on solar every day - so - I am a big fan. I have been discouraged with the idea of solar on the roof by lack of personnel who can do the install up here...and I was also told by a large VT RV shop that my whole RV would "need to be rewired". They were quoting approx. $8,000 dollars for the job. I think it's more likely is they just didn't want to be bothered.

Another shop I spoke to said that "most people up here just accept what comes with their RV and don't ask for anything else." Even though their primary business in RV maintenance, etc. they said they had never done a solar installation before..so...
Yes, I could mount panels on the roof and somehow attach them to a battery. But I don't know how - and I can't do that kind of install by myself. (Beyond the technical aspects, I simply can't lift solar panels to the roof by myself...) I also don't really want to put more holes in the roof. But - I am going to keep looking into it and see if there is a simplified way to use solar in the MH.

I'm going in tomorrow to Autozone since my battery is still under warranty...and see if they have ANYTHING that is more robust. They were trying to tell me that "Lithium batteries are dangerous, you know. They burst into flames."

I had to explain LIFePO4 batteries to them.


Sheesh.

[pconroy]

Originally Posted by C42

Yes, I could mount panels on the roof and somehow attach them to a battery. But I don't know how - and I can't do that kind of install by myself. (Beyond the technical aspects, I simply can't lift solar panels to the roof by myself...) I also don't really want to put more holes in the roof. But - I am going to keep looking into it and see if there is a simplified way to use solar in the MH.

Sheesh.

Gotcha...

I'll just share what I did. I'm probably considered "handy" but I too knew nothing about solar.

So I bought a 100 watt panel for $80 off Amazon. A $15 Solar Charge Controller off eBay and I hit up Lowes for some wire.

Wire as in one syllable if you're not from Texas and "Whyyyyyyyyyyy-urrrrrrrrrrrrrr", two syllables if you are.

I watched some Youtubes and read the manuals of more expensive Charge Controllers. In about 30 minutes, I had it connected ---- on the ground in the backyard.

$95 and some wire and I was able to teach myself just how these things work. Like you suspect, it's not difficult. Especially if you're playing with one or two panels.

I didn't want holes in my roof either. So when I was ready, I bought some aluminum angle stuff at Lowes and some 3M VHB tape. I taped the solar panels to my roof. Almost five years later - they're still up there. Attached solid.

So - if you're inclined, I'm tossing out a relatively cheap way to learn about solar. [ I kept the panel, but bought a better controller. ]

Another suggestion would be to watch the RV groups for when the big RV gathering in Quartzsite (https://www.quartzsitervshow.com/). I'm told a gazillion vendors will be there and you can get work done by knowledgeable people for reasonable prices.

[pconroy]

Originally Posted by C42

I'm going in tomorrow to Autozone since my battery is still under warranty...and see if they have ANYTHING that is more robust.

Autozone will have Optima branded AGM batteries. Some folks swear by AGMs.



Me? Lithium is my ultimate goal too. So I'm not going to pop $400 for an Optima or other expensive battery. I can buy four or five Walmart cheapies for that price.


That's where my head is at - I'm going to limp along as cheaply as possible on my conventional lead acid batteries until I can piece together everything I need to go Lithium.

[C42]

Originally Posted by pconroy

Autozone will have Optima branded AGM batteries. Some folks swear by AGMs.

Going to answer both your posts in one reply. . . ;-)

First, I had planned on going to the Quartzsite show for the RTR...so, this is additional motivation. Still, I have learned from living on this remote property and from life in general - I am better off learning what skills I can rather than waiting for someone else. I could be waiting a long time...

I know people like AGM - but - they are also cycle-limited from the standpoint of how they are monitored and used. Case in point. My first set of AGM batteries here in the N. Country lasted 7 years. I monitored them like a hawk, never let them drop below 80% (or horrors, 70%). The second set were installed in 2021 right before I brought a "trusted" person in to watch my house and animals for six months. I instructed her as carefully as I could, left charts, and monitored via camera at a distance. She basically ignored everything. I logged in one day and they were at 19%. (She also removed the camera after that.) The damage was done. They barely hold a charge now. I used the system this summer - it processed through the charge controller and inverter - but once the sun was down. That was it. They will show a fine passthrough charge in full sunlight (28.6/24v system)...but that drops to about 20.1 when the sun goes down.

I know people like AGM - but they are certainly not maintenance-free from the standpoint of monitoring their usage and health to extend their lifespan.

I love your idea of DIY ...teaching myself what I can. I think I even have an unused Morningstar controller laying around here somewhere. So, question. I see how you were able to affix them to the roof. How did you wire them into your batteries/controller/inverter, etc. from there? Since my inverter is currently under my bed - I am assuming I will need to make room there???

(I will be going to El Paso in October for 6-9 months for an internship at a birthing/midwifery center and then hopefully on to Mexico. And yes - sun will not be a problem there! And - I lived in Texas for almost 20 years...so....I am a little familiar with their language idiosyncrasies. ;-)

Thank you, @pconroy - you given me some great ideas and even more generously - you've given me some of your time which is a precious commodity these days, it seems.

Thanks so much!

[pconroy]

Originally Posted by C42

I love your idea of DIY ...teaching myself what I can. I think I even have an unused Morningstar controller laying around here somewhere. So, question. I see how you were able to affix them to the roof. How did you wire them into your batteries/controller/inverter, etc. from there? Since my inverter is currently under my bed - I am assuming I will need to make room there???

Remember - the sole purpose of solar is to charge the house batteries. Two wires come from the solar panels and to the controller. Then two more wires leave the controller and go to the house battery.


So that gave me some latitude where to plunk the controller. I chose the "basement" compartment in the back of mine. I too didn't want to drill any holes in the roof.

The panels are also at the rear of the RV on the roof. The two wires from the panel, come across the roof and into a 1" PVC pipe. The pipe is painted to match the RV and the pipe is zip-tied to the ladder. The pipe length is from roof to bumper. So the wires have a protected, straight shot from roof to bumper. Albeit on the outside. Then I ran the wires under the RV, following some existing Jayco wires. The wires come up thru a small hole in the floor of the compartment and to the controller.

Then from the controller, two more wires come back to the hole in the floor, and out. Those two go under the RV and to the battery. The only hole I ended up with was a small one in the floor of the compartment that was easy to plug up.


As for mounting the panel to the roof - it was a 6' section of aluminum angle from Lowes. I think I went with 1.5x1.5" stuff I cut the angle to two 3' lengths and drilled and bolted the panel to the angle. One on each side of the panel.


The bottom of the angle got full strips of 3M VHB tape. And that was pressed hard onto my fiberglass roof. So each panel has like 6 feet of 3M VHB tape holding it down. [ Just in case, I also took a length of nylon web strapping and bolted it to the panels then wrapped the strapping around some roof stuff up there. The strap was a safety strap of sorts. ]



I hope that makes some sense.

[pconroy]

I can't find a picture of my controller but I found a pix with the panels and the PVC pipe in the back.

[fenderworks]

pconroy,

thanks for including pictures. i also would like a couple of solar panels on the roof, but will not drill into the roof. that tape must work good.

thanks

[Rich T]

Originally Posted by pconroy

You can't just swap... Well, you can........ But....


I forget what model you said you had, but I think you had a newer unit. Units past 2018, 2019 are likely going to be Lithium ready on the converter side. Older units, like mine, need more $$$$$$ to go Lithium.


You need to think about your converter, your alternator and your weather before plunking in a LiFePO4 battery.


Like I said - you >>could<< do it, but you might not get the benefits.

Have been wondering about Lithium also but concerned about changing to a different charging system. I have a a 2023 Greyhawk 29MV. how would I determine if the charger was compatible with Lithium?
Thanks
Rich T

[Rich T]

I am interested in Lithium also. I have a 2023 Greyhawk 29MV. How could I figure out if my factory charger would be ok with Lithium?
Thanks
Rich T