Seneca 36FK Electrical Mystery

[RayBo]

Electrical Mystery - Shore power, generator, batteries suddenly changed behavior and not working as expected - bit long post, but necessary. I'll post updates or answers as I go, but for now, struggling with what to do.

So, my 2012 Jayco Seneca Freightliner has been perfect. In August, I replaced all the coach batteries (originals, 5+ years old) with new ones from Interstate. Replaced all fuses to the solenoids, removed every wire, cleaned on wire wheel, replaced and sprayed with the red battery terminal protectant. It has worked perfectly since then.

A week ago we had a hurricane, causing us to lose power. I store the Seneca inside, and I keep it plugged into a 50amp socket that I installed in my warehouse. Always works perfectly, and I keep the A/C’s and fridge on nominal just to keep humidity and mold away.

Power was off 5 days. The Seneca was still plugged into the wall, through a surge protector. I could not get to the shop due to the damage from the weather.

I got here and found that everything was dark. Could not turn on my inverter. Could not turn on my “whole house” switch. Could not get anything to operate on shore power, even though the power in the building is back on and consistent.

Could not start the generator.

SO, started the truck. After a minute, I could hear the isolator solenoid click and I had power. Batteries showed 12.4v on the inverter display, matched by a meter I used on the terminals. I figured maybe the solenoid had stuck or just didn’t have enough power to re-engage without the truck running.

I checked all 6 fuses in the battery bay, found them to be good. All connections good. No fuses or breakers tripped inside the cabin, A/C or DC.

I could use the microwave and 110v outlets. Could not run the air conditioners or the fridge on A/C. All DC circuits operations.

Started the generator and could then use the A/C’s and the fridge.

Generator off, A/C’s and fridge no longer worked. (All the while still attached to 50 amp shore power, tested as delivering power.

Afterward, turned off the truck. After about 10 minutes with the truck off, everything went dark again. Battery bank still shows 12.4 volts across the parallel circuit.

I’m pretty good with electrical, from 1P 120-240, 3p to 600v, and DC as well, but I’m a little stuck here because i have no print and there are many blind cables which have remote ends I can't find without tearing up a bunch of stuff. Anyone have any thoughts?


I'd be grateful for any advice and apologize if I'm posting this in the wrong place. I'm a little new to the forum and don't know how to find everything yet.

[SloPoke]

can you clarify:

I checked all 6 fuses in the battery bay, found them to be good. All connections good. No fuses or breakers tripped inside the cabin, A/C or DC.

I could use the microwave and 110v outlets. Could not run the air conditioners or the fridge on A/C. All DC circuits operations.

Started the generator and could then use the A/C’s and the fridge.

You could use JUST the Microwave and the outlets on the Inverter? what about the other outlets that are not on the Inverter? were they working with power?

Can you test again - after you get the batteries in the coach charged again by the engine charging system to get the 12v system back up. Test with the Inverter OFF.

things are pointing to the 50A Transfer switch between the Gen and Shore power cord - or in between where you are verifiying power at where you plug in your cord. - are you still using the Surge Protector? have you ruled it out?

[RayBo]

Nope. Thought I stated clearly, but possibly not. Shore power should run everything, regardless. It always has. Besides that, shore power has always trickle charged the batteries and kept them topped up. But even with no batteries, or entirely dead, they don't matter because the 50 amp shore power should run the entire thing and always has. However, now, for no apparent reason, it no longer works that way. Just looking for a starting place. I wonder if the two solenoids are interacting with one another or whether one is sticking (maybe partially welded due to all the browns and downs that happened over days during the hurricane.) Short of replacing parts, which I will do next, I just wanted to see if any Seneca folks have had an identical (not 'sorta' but identical) experience. Please let me know if you have any more thoughts. Thanks for your reply.

PS. I have no print, therefore can't tell which 110v outlets work from the inverter vs. shore power alone. Full trace or print are my only options.

[SloPoke]

Originally Posted by RayBo

I just wanted to see if any Seneca folks have had an identical (not 'sorta' but identical) experience. Please let me know if you have any more thoughts. Thanks for your reply.

PS. I have no print, therefore can't tell which 110v outlets work from the inverter vs. shore power alone. Full trace or print are my only options.

Identical -almost... very close - the Transfer switch would not sense shore power.

The Power Converter(that charges the house batteries) was not getting power from the shore power unless the gen was running - allowing the batteries to drop below a safe voltage to keep the house shut-off relay engaged. It eventually cut out.

[SloPoke]

Originally Posted by RayBo

PS. I have no print, therefore can't tell which 110v outlets work from the inverter vs. shore power alone. Full trace or print are my only options.

here ya go - for our year

[rgolding]

A great similarity to a problem we had. Here's how we resolved under warranty
Contacted dealer, he pointed me to the "Transfer Switch", tried a couple of things and said contact the manufacturer of the "Transfer Switch".
Technician at "Transfer Switch" manufacturer, had me run a few test. Said it was toast.
New one arrived next day and I replaced one wire at a time.

Hope this helps. If good, great. If not, normal disclaimer.

[RayBo]

Thanks much SloPoke and rgolding. I'll come back with another post after I do some more digging today.

BTW, a couple more answsers:
I did rule out the surge protector. It's only a week new and it tests good.
Correct on the word "only" meaning the 110v from the converter are the only ones that work.
Power is verified at the outlet in the shop, at the surge protector, and at the connection point in the Seneca.
I'm leaning toward transfer switch as well, but the "wrench in the works" is the fact that if I turn the key on, start the truck, and let it run about a minute or more, then my switch (in the step well by the entry door) begins to work again.

I'm going to disconnect the battery bank and charge it externally overnight with my big shop charger.

[RayBo]

Ric,
Do you recall whether the "transfer switch" manufacturer was Precision Circuits, Inc.?

[Seneca 37ts]

I have had power surges / back feed situation take out my transfer switch and when it does shore power wont work but gen. power will it welds its self into the gen. position.
Just FYI

[memphis02]

If you have the energy commander 30 unit for your genset, you could get into the safety test settings to see if it detects shore power, while the circuit is energized. That would give you definitive proof that the system isn't seeing power.

I'm getting some pretty good mileage, today, with this print. -Hope it helps.

[RayBo]

Not sure if I know how to properly reply directly, so here goes. Please help me if I did it wrong.

SO...

Ric,
Do you recall whether the "transfer switch" manufacturer was Precision Circuits, Inc.?

[RayBo]

Hey, Update for you. Still tracking this down after a bit of time away on other priorities. Replaced with new the Precision Components Battery Isolation Manager and the large solenoid right next to it in the battery bay. (Don't have time for zero-cost troubleshooting, so I'm not averse to swapping out components.) Anyway, I believe this thing should have a power converter to charge the house batteries and make DC/AC conversions, and I believe there must be some sort of automatic transfer switch to sense and switch from shore power, gen power, and battery power. I have electrical schematics, but I haven't found exactly where these components are located. Any knowledge where to find them?

[RVermont]

Guessing that your transfer switch is in a similar place. The 110 transfer switch is located in the space under the bedroom cabinets. Remove bottom drawers to access.

The 110 power enters this unit which on my unit is generator preference. If the switch sees generator then it will supply power to the converter/110 subpanel. If generator is off and 110 supplied the circuit will operate and the 110 shore power should then flow. It could be that the transfer switch is welded to the generator position or the power to close the solenoid has failed and the switch will not close. When you apply shore power do you hear the contact switch? This should take 20-45 seconds for the unit to look at the power and operate. This is a pretty loud thud when it happens.

The microwave and tv circuits are fed from the inverter and again in my unit this is a pass through. If you have battery power the inverter will be supplying 110 power to these circuits but not to the others. A proximity circuit sector could be used on the 110 feed line to the inverter to see if this is getting power or if it is the batteries that are supplying the power

Not sure if this helps as I can only speak to what I have and hope there is some similarity in design and layout.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RVermont]

Converter is located in this electric panel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RayBo]

Originally Posted by RVermont

Guessing that your transfer switch is in a similar place. The 110 transfer switch is located in the space under the bedroom cabinets. Remove bottom drawers to access.

The 110 power enters this unit which on my unit is generator preference. If the switch sees generator then it will supply power to the converter/110 subpanel. If generator is off and 110 supplied the circuit will operate and the 110 shore power should then flow. It could be that the transfer switch is welded to the generator position or the power to close the solenoid has failed and the switch will not close. When you apply shore power do you hear the contact switch? This should take 20-45 seconds for the unit to look at the power and operate. This is a pretty loud thud when it happens.

The microwave and tv circuits are fed from the inverter and again in my unit this is a pass through. If you have battery power the inverter will be supplying 110 power to these circuits but not to the others. A proximity circuit sector could be used on the 110 feed line to the inverter to see if this is getting power or if it is the batteries that are supplying the power

Not sure if this helps as I can only speak to what I have and hope there is some similarity in design and layout.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Exactly what I needed, thanks. Found them both, PD52 Transfer Switch and PD9280 Converter. At first glance, it looks like the transfer switch is welded closed. I will investigate and post again so others may benefit from the experience. I'm actually going to remove both and bench test them, as there are a couple unexplained relays screwed to the floor behind them that I can barely see and can't reach. I'm going to compare the lot with the schematics, find the problem, and then I'll post the answer. Thanks again.

[RVermont]

It really is a cluster in there. No organization at all. All the solenoid relays and even the slide-out controls.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RayBo]

Discovered today that the Automatic Transfer Switch had a contactor (shore power side) that was welded closed. This could have resulted from alternating giant surges and "no power" conditions during hurricane irma, which we had 15 times a day for almost a week, when the truck was attached to power and I could not physically get to it.

Today I bought a new ATS and also a new converter for good measure, to save time, and don't care if I have a spare on the shelf. (I also now have a Battery Isolation Manager, a coach/truck battery disconnect solenoid, and two sets of all fuses and relays. These will just go into my "rainy day" bin underneath.

Right now the welded contacts and the burnt relay on the ATS show me the problem. Parts are on the way. I'll post again once I get it resolved. Also, I'll be keeping the contactor from the generator side of the old box and the relay circuit board, because they can be spares in an emergency. (Both contactors are the same part number, therefore interchangeable.)

Ray

[RayBo]

So,

Replaced the Progressive Dynamics Automatic Transfer Switch with an upgraded version. PD52 was original, I installed a PD52DSC, which has full integrated surge protection with indicator lights. (And a spare board, just in case it happens again when I'm long away from home.)

Really difficult to access unless you're the size of a 5 year old. However, after a couple hours, I got it swapped out. (If you do the Auto-Gen-Start thing, you can get a 16vac "sensing" board for that, but we don't.)

Because of the extent of the "fried" contactor, I elected to replace some wires that looked bad, along with both contactors/relay solenoids in the battery compartment. Also, because I have 4 batteries, I installed "marine grade" disconnects so that every time I want to work on electrical, I don't have to crawl in the hole and disconnect leads by hand and wreck my red battery terminal spray job. (In FL, that stuff really matters.)

I also installed a remote pendant on my power converter (while I was upside down jammed into the space under the closet fixing the rest) that allows me to manually desulfate my batteries. The PD 9280A converter does that automatically for 15 min every 21 hours when connected to shore power, but sometimes, when I'm changing a battery or adding electrolyte, I like the ability to do it manually.

Even though, ultimately, the relays and contactors in the battery bay were not the problem, I just don't like problems on the road. If you have a $200K motorhome and you're trying to save $100, you probably need to re-evaluate...just my thoughts. So, now they are in the spares bin.

Note, I also found a few fuses that were still "good," meaning they had continuity. However, visual inspection with a good light and a magnifying glass showed that some were 90% burned. (aka, not quite fried, but close.) SO, I replaced them all for a grand total of nine bucks. Cheap insurance.

So, mystery solved.

PS. My original post contained an error. The ATS did not have the shore side contactor welded shut, it was welded open. THAT is what created the mystery, due to workings of the circuit board inside the PD ATS Switch. This took some time with the tech folks at PD to figure out. Usually, they weld closed and the troubleshooting is straight forward.

ANOTHER NOTE: When the electrical fault killed my ATS, it also threw the breaker located on the Onan generator...something I did not immediately notice. Once all was repaired, still could not get the generator to power anything. Went outside and saw the breaker tripped. Problemo solved.