Sway bars, steering stabilizers, track bars

[swartz2020]

Hello we just bought our first class c. 2020 Redhawk 24B. Drove it about 80 miles home. I’ve read a lot about the Helwig sway bars, road master steering stabilizers, rear track bars, and caster adjustments. I’m planning to toad my Jeep Wrangler. My question is do I really need to do all of the above? If so in what order? My wife is planning to use it when I’m stuck at work and cannot go, so I want it to handle, and drive as well as possible. Any advise is greatly appreciated.

[pward]

There are detailed threads here in the forum that discuss these items in detail. You may want to read thru those and then ask detailed questions.

[RetiredOne]

Originally Posted by swartz2020

My question is do I really need to do all of the above? If so in what order? My wife is planning to use it when I’m stuck at work and cannot go, so I want it to handle, and drive as well as possible. Any advise is greatly appreciated.

You don't have to do any of it, the rig will still roll down the road...

But, if you want to reduce the white knuckle experiences, the upgrades will make a big difference!

[swartz2020]

Thanks for the input, RetiredOne. Have you made the caster adjustment? I’m concerned that it could make it chew the tires. And do you get the same effect from the sway bars and rear track bar?

BTW I’ve read many of your posts. Looks like we have the same rig.

[Harvard]

Caster is not a tire wear parameter. If the toe is out of spec it will cause premature tire wear and the camber setting will effect/determine the wear profile from the bad toe setting. So says 10 years and 50,000 miles of E450 experience, see this link for details.

E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER

[RetiredOne]

Originally Posted by swartz2020

Thanks for the input, RetiredOne. Have you made the caster adjustment? I’m concerned that it could make it chew the tires. And do you get the same effect from the sway bars and rear track bar?

BTW I’ve read many of your posts. Looks like we have the same rig.

I didn't do the caster adjustment, as I don't feel the effects of of it being out, like the guys who have longer rigs and more weight over the rear axle. Our shorter rig doesn't suffer some of the same issues as the long ones.

I did do both sway bars and steering stabilizer, which made a BIG difference in the way the rig handles. The jury is still out on the track bar, I want to do some more miles to see what else the rig needs, but right now I'm happy with the handling.

Yes, we have the same rig, I just did a custom vinyl wrap on the exterior, as I hated the Redhawk graphics.

[Trapper2020]

If you want a better driving experience for you and DW I would add the following in order.
Front end:
Roadmaster steering stabilizer
Sumo Springs
Helwig sway bar
All are pretty easy to do yourself. Total cost about $750. Change in high wind and no wind driving is dramatic. Take care

Enjoy the journey

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by Trapperbob

If you want a better driving experience for you and DW I would add the following in order.
Front end:
Roadmaster steering stabilizer
Sumo Springs
Helwig sway bar
All are pretty easy to do yourself. Total cost about $750. Change in high wind and no wind driving is dramatic. Take care

Enjoy the journey

+1

Being that it's a Redhawk, you may want to upgrade the REAR sway bar as well. I don't remember if yours has the Hellwig helpers in the rear, but if it does, you'll want to adjust those as well.

RetiredOne makes a good point about the length of the rig. My rig is much longer than yours and his. That extra weight hanging out off the rear axle (including the fresh water tank) has a dramatic affect on the handling of the rig. This is why Harvard makes such a good point about the caster adjustment. All the other stuff helps A LOT, but I still feel like I need a caster adjustment. Your shorter rig may not benefit quite as much from that, though it may still help.

FWIW, I did all the stuff on Trapperbob's list above, and I intend to add a track bar and Sumos to the rear and have a caster adjustment done. With all of that, I will have done everything I can do to improve the handling of the rig.

[Jopopsy]

I’ve found the opposite with regards to length. My longer and heavier 29MV handles much better then the shorter 26Y I had prior. I think its the wheelbase - having a longer wheelbase with a higher overall ratio lends to more evenly distributed weight.

[Harvard]

Originally Posted by Jopopsy

I’ve found the opposite with regards to length. My longer and heavier 29MV handles much better then the shorter 26Y I had prior. I think its the wheelbase - having a longer wheelbase with a higher overall ratio lends to more evenly distributed weight.

Another possibility, given IF both the 26Y and the 29MV are on the E450 chassis, the longer unit will have more weight on the rear springs. More weight on the rear springs would INCREASE the nose up profile which would in turn increase the run time caster angle giving more front end stability. JMO.

Of course, if air bags are part of the picture, they would effect the nose up/down profile, this thought could be all wet.

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by Jopopsy

I’ve found the opposite with regards to length. My longer and heavier 29MV handles much better then the shorter 26Y I had prior. I think its the wheelbase - having a longer wheelbase with a higher overall ratio lends to more evenly distributed weight.

Interesting.

It's far from scientific, but it seems that the shorter rigs have historically handled better out of the box than longer rigs in general?

What I can say for sure is that MY rig handled like absolute garbage right out of the box. I noticed it some during the test drive. But when I got it home, loaded it out and hit the road for longer and longer trips, the "slop" became clearly evident. And so I started working on making it better.

The biggest problem in my house was fighting DW's budget the whole way. She kept saying "why would they let you buy it and drive it if it were dangerous?" or "why would they produce and sell a camper that wasn't set up right? It's never going to drive like a Suburban".

I told her I had no expectations of it driving like a Suburban, but I'd rather it not drive like a beach ball! And to the "why would they sell it that way" questions, I've been trying to explain that to her for 20 years, and she just doesn't get it. The only time she accepts anything I do is if she can obviously FEEL the difference; and that's pretty rare because she doesn't notice performance related issues in vehicles. So I just tell her that since I do most of the driving, it's for me. Or I'll tell her it's a safety related issue and she usually leaves me alone about it. And one thing's for sure; if she DOES notice a difference after complaining, I don't get an apology, I just get my own internal satisfaction that she noticed, and I'm sure to remind her of that every chance I get!! Like on our last really long trip I told her there's no way I'd be able to put in 14 hours of seat time in one day without the improvements I did. But we do what we do; 20 years and it's just the way it is with that part.

Truth is that if she wasn't holding the purse strings a little, I'd be totally broke!! LOL!!

[RetiredOne]

Originally Posted by Camper_bob

The biggest problem in my house was fighting DW's budget the whole way. She kept saying "why would they let you buy it and drive it if it were dangerous?" or "why would they produce and sell a camper that wasn't set up right? It's never going to drive like a Suburban".

I told her I had no expectations of it driving like a Suburban, but I'd rather it not drive like a beach ball! And to the "why would they sell it that way" questions, I've been trying to explain that to her for 20 years, and she just doesn't get it. The only time she accepts anything I do is if she can obviously FEEL the difference; and that's pretty rare because she doesn't notice performance related issues in vehicles. So I just tell her that since I do most of the driving, it's for me. Or I'll tell her it's a safety related issue and she usually leaves me alone about it. And one thing's for sure; if she DOES notice a difference after complaining, I don't get an apology, I just get my own internal satisfaction that she noticed, and I'm sure to remind her of that every chance I get!!

Wait... hold on a second.... did you marry MY wife????

I got that whole "If it was an issue, why did they let it leave the dealer that way?" Or she said, "It's a brand new rig, it can't have problems.." She also can't tell the difference in handling on any vehicle she drives, while I can tell the difference if my tire pressure drops a pound or two in my truck.

So, after I did the sway bars and steering stabilizer, she actually noticed the difference in the ride and the leaning of the box. She didn't fight me on ordering the parts, as she's usually clueless on any type of mechanical or technical issue, so she just takes my word for it.

Truth is that if she wasn't holding the purse strings a little, I'd be totally broke!! LOL!!

Thank goodness I don't have to deal with that, she doesn't get a say if I decide a change is needed. Then again, I just look the other way when she comes back from the shoe store or Kohls.....

But we do what we do; 20 years and it's just the way it is with that part.

We're hitting double that this year... holy crap, that's a long time, and I have the scars to prove it... There's a lot of give and take, and this whole RVing experience is a brand new chapter, so it should be an interesting ride...

[Jopopsy]

I know I figured it would be a handful on the way back from the dealer. It really wasn’t - one handed driving the whole way. Once I got it home I adjusted the helper springs and put the front Hellwig on. Of course it drove even better. I still have to upgrade the steering damper but I’m really on the fence w/ going the cheaper Bilstein route as my rig really handles well for its porkiness. I’ll get it aligned at the truck shop in May (+ caster).

[RetiredOne]

It should also ride better once you get all your gear packed in it, and fill all tanks. That added weight made my rig settled down and ride better.

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by RetiredOne

...snip


Thank goodness I don't have to deal with that, she doesn't get a say if I decide a change is needed. Then again, I just look the other way when she comes back from the shoe store or Kohls.....


...snip

I'm pretty sure she doesn't have a sister ... but I guess anything's possible!!

Anyway, I can spend whatever I want. In fact, I have overridden her prohibition several times. Really the only time she gets her panties in a wad is when it's a lot of money (which for us really isn't that much). In reality, she just makes me think more before I spend, which is a good thing for me!

I try to explain to her the mechanical concepts behind what I'm doing and how things work, and she loses interest RAPIDLY. So she pretty much takes my word for it, especially if I tell her it's necessary. Most of the time if she can tell that I can feel an improvement, she's quiet about it. Like when I put on the sway bar; the first time out, she could SEE the relief on my face, and I was sure to explain to her the difference, and how drastic the improvement was.

And I'm sure to remind her of her protests when she wants to buy a pair of heels for $500 that are going to make her miserable. I tell her I'd rather her spend that on something that will make her happy...

[amstier]

You might have Bilstins already. Mine is a 2020 and it came with koni and I had to switch it to Bilstens but I believe that up to 2019 the j-ride included Bilstins.

[CAG]

I have both the stabilizer and Helwig. While it did make some difference It did not tone down some of the yanking that comes with passing big rigs. In-fact a recent drive from SE Arizona back to Phoenix on I-10 in a crosswind brought me back to the days of cross-wind landings in 40mph gusts. I kept wanting to jam more right rudder into it.

As to caster, while I am sure it has worked in some cases, I have now had three alignment shops tell me that their experience (and it is pretty vast since they deal only with RVs) is this is not the solution. Of course they have solutions that add $3-4K to the repair. The one shop did a load/pressure alignment which did the most good but.

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by CAG

I have both the stabilizer and Helwig. While it did make some difference It did not tone down some of the yanking that comes with passing big rigs. In-fact a recent drive from SE Arizona back to Phoenix on I-10 in a crosswind brought me back to the days of cross-wind landings in 40mph gusts. I kept wanting to jam more right rudder into it.

As to caster, while I am sure it has worked in some cases, I have now had three alignment shops tell me that their experience (and it is pretty vast since they deal only with RVs) is this is not the solution. Of course they have solutions that add $3-4K to the repair. The one shop did a load/pressure alignment which did the most good but.

I'm with you on this. I noticed a dramatic improvement with the front-end mods I did; very little with the Hellwig adjustment. I still feel like I get pushed around more than I should though. It's not bad enough for me to force the issue on the alignment though...

Have you considered doing anything to the rear? I'm thinking about going with a track bar in the rear as well as Sumos back there.

I feel like even if the front is nice and tight, if the rear is still loose, it could be causing what I'm feeling. Which by the way is not bad at all. I'm to the point where I'm getting a little "picky" about it...

[Jopopsy]

I’m really not sure how much better folks are going to do w/ regards to defeating the semi-truck vortex that happens when they pass you. At some point physics is physics. I don’t know ... I wonder how much of what we spend on suspension and handling mods is actually doing something vs. placebo.

At any rate, I’m still getting the front end aligned. I probably won’t play around too much w/ the rear as it’s already modified significantly over stock FOMOCO due to J-Ride Plus. I’ll probably run the Bilstein steering damper as it was fine for me in a rig prior.

[CAG]

Have you considered doing anything to the rear? I'm thinking about going with a track bar in the rear as well as Sumos back there.

I understand that the Greyhawk has the larger Helwig on the rear but I need to get under and look for myself. That would be the next but I am with you on the physics of this one.