Water Heaters Tankless versus standard

LoveLife · 11-24-2018, 03:51 PM

Hello Seneca owners. Brand new Seneca owner here just picked up 2016 37FS. PO had removed the tankless water heater and installed a 6 gal tank Atwood heater with anode rod. Noticed that on my walk around with dealer. Dealer seems to think it was changed out because PO didn't winterize that part properly.
I may replace it in near future with tankless. Who likes their tankless over regular tank heater and any pros and cons to tankless other than constant hot water?

Robbbyr · 11-24-2018, 04:23 PM

The 2016 Senecas still utilized a Girard unit, early versions were frequently "temperamental" especially in a campground with poor water pressure or poor water flow. Many found that using their onboard tank and pump made the Girard work better. Jayco, due to the numerous complaints, was changing out Girard tankless units under warranty for conventional tank-style water heaters for owners having problems. Supposedly a 6-gallon Suburban would fit in the cutout for the original Girard, perhaps a 6-gallon Atwood would also fit, I can't remember for sure. I substituted a 10-gallon Atwood for my original Girard, but it did require enlarging the body cutout. But having this gas/electric unit has made hot water super simple. The newer Senecas switched to Truma tankless heaters and reportedly they worked much better. But unless upgraded by the owner, the base model Jayco installed does not offer freeze protection.

You mentioned an anode rode. If the unit is an Atwood unit an anode is not required. Some customers add an aftermarket anode, but that is not recommended by Atwood. However Suburban units do require an anode.

One "con" to both the Truma and Girard tankless units is that the only way to make hot water is to burn your own propane. Most owners who have substituted tank-style units have gas/electric units which lets you heat your water with campground electricity.

Mountain Cajun · 11-24-2018, 05:21 PM

Our 2016 tankless has a sensor that below 40 degrees kicks the burner on for a short time to keep from freezing. The main problem with the unit was not to use the cold water at all and only use the temperature setting. Ours works fine once we figured that out.

Les7h · 11-24-2018, 05:22 PM

Our 2016 HJ had the Girard and my DW complained multiple times per day ( every time she needed hot water ) and it would never supply water hot enough for dishes - after several “ attempts to repair ( 2 at the facility in Middlebury ) Jayco replaced ours with the Truma Comfort and we relocated it under the stovetop and the DW brags every time she needs hot water - no cold surprises anymore - we paid around $400 for the “ comfort “and the extra labor to relocate it - by far the best upgrade we have done - HAPPY WIFE Robby is correct about it being propane only but it uses very little propane Les

Robbbyr · 11-24-2018, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Cajun

Our 2016 tankless has a sensor that below 40 degrees kicks the burner on for a short time to keep from freezing. The main problem with the unit was not to use the cold water at all and only use the temperature setting. Ours works fine once we figured that out.

The Girards do have freeze protection, the newer Truma Basic models installed by Jayco do not.

Girard recommends operating the heater exactly as you stated, works fine provided you have sufficient flow to keep the heater from shutting the burner down on the safety. And if you have full hookups and can afford to just let the water run, it generally works well. But if you are are boondocking and you need to conserve water, showers with a low-flow showerhead and turning the flow on and off can get "interesting".

According to owners the newer Truma units function well at much lower flows than the Girard.

SloPoke · 11-24-2018, 06:57 PM

We have the second Generation Girard in our 2015 Seneca. It has the "Knob control" in the bathroom for the water temperature. Our prior motorhome had the traditional 6-gallon tank water heater and when we bought our Seneca... we had no clue how the Girard was supposed to work.

The first things we discovered were that we did not have to remember to turn the water heater on/off/gas/electric. When arriving in camp - you can have hot water without having to turn on the WH and wait for 30 minutes to get hot water. It only uses gas to heat when you are using water, after you shut off the tap - the burner stops. It does not run for another 10 minutes to re-heat the tank. But it does take an extra 15 seconds to light and heat your water when you turn the tap on - vs - the tank water heater delivers stored hot water without that delay (With both style of heaters - you still wait for hot water to reach your tap - depending on how far your tap is from the water heater - RobbbyR and I have both posted alternative solutions to reducing the wasted water while waiting)

We took a while to get used to the tankless unit, just like we took a while with our tankless heater in our house. When the water supply is 70F in Florida, we need to turn down the temperature knob. When the water supply is 40F in Wyoming, we need to turn up the temperature knob. The Gerard does not have a precision temperature control management system that you set the output water at your favorite setting and it works that way for all seasons, it takes some getting used to. The two factors that contribute to the success is "consistent water flow" and consistent input temperature. If the water flow is poor, it will heat the water flowing thru it too hot and have to shut itself down for safety reasons, then start back up in a few seconds. That is why those who use the onboard pump have good results, as they have consistent supply pressure from a reliable source (their own water pump).

Another factor is the input water temperature: If we have really cold water in our tanks (35F - 55F ) we will need to turn the temperature knob at 3/4 or above to have a good hot shower using 95% hot water. Conversely, we have had 80F water in our tanks and have the heater turned as low as the knob will go with the water at 50%Hot / 50%cold on the shower knobs... - then the heater might start to cycle on/off due to low water flow. (really - when the input water is 80F, the outside temperature was 110F and a cold shower was really what I wanted anyways)

Is the Tankless perfect... Not even close. Not even as good as our one at home. But it has a lot of great qualities over tank units for how we use ours. "but not for everyone" We find that they use a lot less propane, DW can take a long shower for 15-20 minutes (and does) and then I can shower right after her for as long as I feel like it. There will be hot water until we run out of water. If we want real hot water for dishes - we turn the dial on High. (and yes - remember to turn it back to 1/3 for our shower)

The best part - it does not have a pilot that will blow out in the middle of the night, or come on a few times in the middle of the night to re-heat the tank.

Rice1951 · 11-24-2018, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoveLife

Hello Seneca owners....I may replace it in near future with tankless. Who likes their tankless over regular tank heater and any pros and cons to tankless other than constant hot water?

Congratulations on your new to you rig. If you replace the tank heater with a tankless you will definitely not be putting in a Girard. There may be other brands out there but more than likely it will be the Truma Comfort model. We had Girard’s latest generation model from the getgo and it left a lot to be desired. Jayco installed the Truma Comfort model during a warranty trip to Middlebury and it is night and day. Works just like at home under all conditions - no need to set the temperature to what you think you might like, you can adjust the temp with hot and/or cold knobs, no temp fluctuations, unaffected by low water pressure and most importantly, as Les7h stated, it has made the DW happy. Granted my DW and I are seasonal glampers but we have used our coach for two full seasons and have only refilled the propane tank once. Good luck to you.

Bullitt6283 · 11-24-2018, 09:05 PM

I have the 2nd generation (knob type) Girard tankless.

I really hate it. Temperature consistency is a joke. I waste too much water.

I intend to replace it with a tank-style water heater in the spring.

blujay40 · 11-25-2018, 06:44 AM

Add me to the group that ditched their Girard after only one year of dealing with it's quirks and moved to a Truma Comfort. In my opinion, best of both worlds. With it's mixing tank, you get almost immediate hot water and then you also get all but unlimited hot water with it's "on demand" capabilities.

As noted, the only downside for some may be that you cannot heat water using electric only but that hasn't been an issue for us and we find that using the Truma uses less propane than we did when we had a traditional tanked water heater and ran it with both electric and propane turned on.

rgolding · 11-25-2018, 07:16 AM

It was a problem to get use to. After 4 years, don't even think about it.

madmaxmutt · 11-25-2018, 09:01 AM

We have only had our Girard for a couple of months. I am not sure it has a knob, but it does have a panel to adjust temp. We normally camp without sewer or connected water. We haven't had a chance to figure that out, yet.

Our first couple of trips have been with water and electric only. It seems DW has figured out the dishwashing. Showers were great, in these conditions. Sewer was not great, in these conditions. I had to pull out the wagon/tote a couple of times. It does waste a great deal of water, and that means full tanks.

pconroy · 11-25-2018, 10:05 AM

If your Girard has a panel to set temps, then it's a Gen III model. Hopefully most of the kinks have been worked out.

While we too have come to like/tolerate our Gen II there are times I have to make accommodations around it.

If the city water pressure is too high or too low, then I usually switch to Tank and shower from the tank and water pump.

I've also found on that when winter camping, the unit doesn't have enough BTUs to really heat cold water. That's really annoying but only if the outside temps are in the 30's.

Other than that - if we're on full hookups, with plenty of propane and decent weather outside - then it's quite nice!

madmaxmutt · 11-25-2018, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pconroy

If your Girard has a panel to set temps, then it's a Gen III model. Hopefully most of the kinks have been worked out.

While we too have come to like/tolerate our Gen II there are times I have to make accommodations around it.

If the city water pressure is too high or too low, then I usually switch to Tank and shower from the tank and water pump.

I've also found on that when winter camping, the unit doesn't have enough BTUs to really heat cold water. That's really annoying but only if the outside temps are in the 30's.

Other than that - if we're on full hookups, with plenty of propane and decent weather outside - then it's quite nice!

Thanks! I already had an adjustable pressure regulator, so too high hasn't been a problem. I don't think there is much other than what you do, about too low pressure.

They may have fixed the outside temp problem. It was in the mid-20s the last few nights of camping without a problem.

edsamuel1957 · 11-25-2018, 02:05 PM

We have the Girard Gen II with the temperature control knob. We bought our 2013 Greyhawk used 5 months ago. The first trip, the heater wouldn't work properly. Just oscillate hot and cold. Tried all the tricks everyone suggested to get it working properly to no avail. After much research, the following is what it took to get it working. Without any regards to low water pressure or inlet water temperature.

First, I replaced the gas modulator valve. Mine was stuck full open. After replacing the valve the unit worked flawlessly except when the inlet water temperature was to high ( about 85 degrees). I examined the old valve and found the valve was contaminated. The output of the valve has no protection from the elements. If it sits for a long time, air and humidity can reach the valve. Eventually contaminating it.

To further help the unit work better in hot weather. I replace the thermal cutoff with an 82c version. The old one was only 56c, barely above normal hot water temperatures.

Bottom line. Now that it is fixed. I love the unit. Just wish it had the digital temperature control.

LoveLife · 11-25-2018, 05:46 PM

Thanks Everyone for the great input and dialogue! I am slowly working my way through the rig and learning all the differences between last MH and this one. We had a 2016 Forest River Solera MBS class C that we loved, but simply grew out of it. This is a beast compared to the MBS.

Robbbyr · 11-25-2018, 06:44 PM

Good luck and enjoy your Seneca! Any questions don't hesitate to ask, it is highly likely some of us have "been there, done that"!

SloPoke · 11-25-2018, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoveLife

Thanks Everyone for the great input and dialogue! I am slowly working my way through the rig and learning all the differences between last MH and this one. We had a 2016 Forest River Solera MBS class C that we loved, but simply grew out of it. This is a beast compared to the MBS.

Welcome to the Seneca family... We really enjoy ours, even with the various quirks and compromises that come with every brand/model. We have adapted to some of them, modified others and in some cases - ripped out and replaced others. It's all about what you want, willing to do and willing to spend.

Crossingover · 11-26-2018, 09:17 AM

Tanks rule IMHO.

jd99336 · 11-26-2018, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Cajun

Our 2016 tankless has a sensor that below 40 degrees kicks the burner on for a short time to keep from freezing. The main problem with the unit was not to use the cold water at all and only use the temperature setting. Ours works fine once we figured that out.

X2 - We still see some fluctuation as the water from the hose transitions to the water below ground (different temperatures going into the heater) but essentially we don't use cold, just hot and adjust temp gauge accordingly. I have gotten crafty enough that if it is really cold outside, I make the shower lukewarm then when the water in the hose is replaced by the warmer underground water, it becomes about the right temp.

Since our temp knob is next to the bathroom sink, it is easy to adjust on the fly for showers and such.

scravens · 12-01-2018, 01:40 PM

We swapped out the factory Girard tankless (that we didn't like) for a Truma AquaGo Comfort tankless and really like it. Not the cheapest, but we think it is worth it. It has a small tank that it recirculates water through the propane heating element so you get quick (not instant because it has to get through the pumbing just like a tanked version). Also has an easy winterizing drain.

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