Where's the quality?

[Wandermuch]

Agree with you on all points. Just dropped JAYCO a nasty-gram on our 2018 Seneca. As far as we're concerned, this will be our last and very soon will turn to real estate ownership for our recreation.

[FeatherFam]

For a long time I held an ignorant and naive notion that quality could be had for a price. I also thought that some vehicles of quality were accessible to the common man, like me. However, over the last decade, I have completely shifted my mindset about the RV industry (and basically all industries) and their products. Quality is not in my vernacular any longer when referencing anything RV. It is oxymoronic to associate quality with RV. I gave up a years ago. Fact is, I do not ascribe the term quality or any of its synonyms to much of anything anymore - other than the time I spend with DW, friends, coworkers, and family/loved ones. RVs in all of their forms are at the bottom of the product heap when it comes to serious analysis of parts, assembly, design, and customer care. Just a fact.

The lesson for us is do not spend too much money on them (relative statement). Fully expect junk and have your tools and/or wallet ready for repairs and mods to do what should have been done in the first place. Accept and have total responsibility about the fact that they are shoddy, time and money consuming, and often dissatisfying consumables; virtually everything is today. I wish that I could say that autos are so awesome, but they stink, too. We had a vaunted Toyota that was an over-priced heap - never again that much for so little in a car. Our vehicles are all full of plastic, fake facade materials, and stupid privacy invading computers - all of it designed to fail. The key for me was to stop thinking that I mattered and am valued by corporations, governments, and marketers, one in the same really. I am fodder and a tool (meat for the grinder if you will) to these entities. I lump products and manufactured goods in with politicians. I know peace when I stop looking to man and his devices and ways for my answers and gratification. Ain't gonna find it there.

The key is to not look for satisfaction out of our purchases; rather find satisfaction, interest, or vocation even in repairing them and improving them - make it what it could of been/what we'd like it to be. Otherwise, we will be gravely disappointed. Getting something of value for our money or our vote is a nasty lie. The "stuff" we buy is junk, and owning the "stuff" means accepting that it is junk and using it as is or fixing it to make it more to our standards and/or imagination. Often we cannot even do that since they come to the showroom so full cheap parts, assembly derelictions, and/or asinine designs that making them functional and enjoyable is hopeless (our last camper).

Our Snapper mower, older Weber grills and smokers, older Bunn coffee maker, water filtration system, and a 20 year -old Champion juicer are the only products that we own to which we would assign the term quality (including all household furnishings, yard items, and clothing. And yes, we do miss our '71 Chevy - the one we could drive without its every move being tracked and data filed. It had plenty of problems, but all of them could be fixed in our garage with minimal tools and effort. With simple tools and a little resourcefulness, that truck could be made and remade as many times as we wanted, unlike today's one and done, go get another one made even cheaper for more money, products.

In today's economy, I do not think even foreign competition would do us much good. All of us have been cooked in a trance inducing "I want it now, lots of it for cheap" economic and political stew. Companies around the world know this and love to get in on the feed.

[Jeff in NC]

I went with the KISS principle. So we went with a 2017 12UD pop up, it was the least expensive way to get all the "must haves" on our list. ( final price was $10,700, I think list was 14K plus w/o the AC) This, as I have read is the last year for the life time warranty. It should be easy enough to maintain after the warranty runs out, and to date we have had it out 4 times ( picked it up in July) It was the last one on the dealers lot, and I suspect it was there for a few months. Issues we have had:
1) "half door" hinge was loose- was fixed at delivery
2) One of the curtains is too short ( looks like it belongs in a 10 not the 12) Dealer said they will look at this when we bring it in for item 3
3) We selected AC as a dealer option, we get little pieces of silver foil out of the unit every time we run it & air flow is much stronger toward the rear as opposed to the front. Air is super cold but will freeze up when I try to freeze out DW. ;>)
All the other mechanicals work fine. HW heater is beyond expectations, Heater works great ( tried it one night when it got into the low 50's no much of a challenge there)
Fridge works almost too good on 110v, Had it on 5 the first time and froze everything in it in about 8 hours, haha now we run it on 1. We have a 4' x 4' shower enclosure we use with the outdoor shower, and we like this for 2 reasons, 1) it is larger then any TT or MH shower I have heard of and 2) keeps the humidity out of the camper.
I am NOT suggesting anyone should not go with a TT or MH, there are lots of pluses with each one, but from reading these forums it appears the number of and complexity of problems increases with each step up, as does the budget. Keep It Stupid Simple (KISS)
Lets go camping!

[redsnapper]

Originally Posted by FeatherFam

As long as we keep buying them . . .

Yes sir.....there you are!!
Record pace sales of RV's.

I will get slammed for this but I gotta say it nonetheless.

We, as owners, decide to fix those annoying "little" things ourselves.
Sure, I agree that this is easier, and more often than not, a sure time saver.

But this let's Jayco and or the dealer off the hook for warranty issues regarding shoddy workmanship and or materials.

So in the book of comebacks, the numbers show far less than what it should be....right?

Comebacks are the bane of manufacturers/repair shops of all shapes and sizes.
An owner hates comebacks.....it reflects poorly on his shop and reflects poorly on the product he is selling. Decreasing revenues is the key.

As an example.....I recently had the rear diff fluid changed in my truck.....get home, park it....fluid is leaking all over the driveway.
I promptly drove it right back to the dealer (Dodge), showed them the leak, showed him the hour old work order.

Within a minute, the truck was whisked away for the fix.
In ten minutes, the leak was fixed (cut "O" ring") and the line mechanic who originally did the diff drain/refill was standing in front of me apologizing with head hung low and offering to come to my driveway and clean up the oil that had leaked out.....while the service manager was standing down the aisle taking it all in.

There HAS to be something we, the consumer, can do to, to prod RV manufactures to step up to the plate and put out a better product.
If we don't let them know of shoddy workmanship or a shoddy material, how on earth will they know about it? I am sure they already know this, yet won't cure the underlying problem......until it gets to the point of diminishing returns that hit the bottom line.

Maybe if the "do it yourselfers" could document and photograph a particular flaw, what you had to do for a repair, add up your time and any materials you used for that repair.....fire it off to Jayco and copy the selling dealer, while demanding reimbursement.
If you did the right thing by taking it back to the dealer for repair and they told you it's a 6 week wait.......get that in writing and tell Jayco that is unacceptable and the driving reason why you did the repair yourself.

Or just come on the various RV chat lines and pitch a hissy fit about it all and once again......let Jayco off the hook?

In a previous posting, I did this very thing....
I was frustrated.....a dealer fix did nothing to keep the shower surround wheels in the track.....it's just a piece of junk....so color me culpable on letting Jayco and the dealer off the hook.

[Lolead]

When I began working at the autodealership in 1974, any trade in with 60,000 miles was sent directly to the auction. It didn't matter if it was a 1 owner originaly purchased at the dealership and maintained exclusively at same. the reason was thatn cars and trucks in that era were basically worn out at that milage. At that milage they would begin to nickle and dime theowner to poverty. Fast forward to now and vehicles with 100 thousand miles are considered "low mileage". It is not rare to see vehicles with 200 K still providing service with only usual maintainance. We have 1 car that has over 165 K on the clock and I have no reason to believe it can not give another 165 k, so in some areas I believe quality has improved.

[FeatherFam]

60k? We had all makes and models of cars in the 60's and very early 70's (pre-EPA) that went for well over 100k with minimal issues, and the issues were all repairable by just about anyone with half a clue and a basic tool box - great little sixes, small block eights, and some bulletproof big blocks. The cars also cost a tenth of our pay and not two-thirds or more. For the price they sell these plastic computerized jelly beans, they better roll for 100k! All of them ought to go for a minimum of 300k for the price. And it is much more costly to rebuild them (over and over) unlike the old ones. This was true about nearly every product, not just vehicles. Today we are better off disposing or trading in our stuff and vehicles, but we used to keep them working and on the road. For example, try rebuilding a new clothes washer today. For $15-25, we used to pull out a pump, put on a belt, and off she went for another 15 years (or more). The mindset has changed to a disposable approach. However, it does not matter or change the fact that manufacturers, marketers, and mongers have been taking folks to the cleaners since time began. It will always be that way.

[Contender]

Have recently looked for a new or recent used RV and liked the Precept 31 UL on the lot. For our first purchase, looking at good/better/best, prefer better, but willing to go best if this is the common opinion - who makes the best & better Class A & C in the 28 -32 ft. range? Much appreciated !! Isata?

[n2bowling]

First post here Folks so HELLO. Good grief this thread is depressing but spot on. The wife and I are looking to get a Class C and we started out in looking at some Four Winds and then Foresters, and now Jayco (gulp)

But after reading here that Jayco was taken over by Thor I really dont know what to do although I know I'll still get a new/used coach

After spending time looking at the Forester 3051 we then saw a (2016) Jayco 29 MV and walked inside and was immediately taken over by some magical power to buy that particular one and Wow! is that unit exactly what we want.

Of course with money being an issue we probably will be getting a good used 2016-2017 Class C and I really dont know which one now, btw, I guess we are what you would call Old-Skool because we bought a '99 (Fleetwood) Terry 5th wheel with a '99 Ford diesel 250 (the one with the great diesel engine) and we are dumping that and getting a Class C...

[pconroy]

Said it before and I believe it: anyone can get a bad unit from any one and vice versa; anyone can get a good unit from any manufacturer.

I think you all you can do is lower your risk:
- pick the manufacturer you think has the better track record
- consider extended warranties (just *consider*)
- think about who's going to service the stuff you can't fix
- spend HOURS on the PDI

Then just wrap your head around the fact that things will break. Some big things, many small things. It's just going to happen.

My 1/2 cent

[foglght]

Originally Posted by n2bowling

First post here Folks so HELLO. Good grief this thread is depressing but spot on. The wife and I are looking to get a Class C and we started out in looking at some Four Winds and then Foresters, and now Jayco (gulp)

But after reading here that Jayco was taken over by Thor I really dont know what to do although I know I'll still get a new/used coach

After spending time looking at the Forester 3051 we then saw a (2016) Jayco 29 MV and walked inside and was immediately taken over by some magical power to buy that particular one and Wow! is that unit exactly what we want.

Of course with money being an issue we probably will be getting a good used 2016-2017 Class C and I really dont know which one now, btw, I guess we are what you would call Old-Skool because we bought a '99 (Fleetwood) Terry 5th wheel with a '99 Ford diesel 250 (the one with the great diesel engine) and we are dumping that and getting a Class C...

So, here is a piece of information you may find useful. Jayco still has a two year warranty. Yes, you probably know this.

What you may not know is that even if you are out of the warranty for mileage (like me) Thetford and Lippert don't subscribe to the mileage warranty and Jayco has purchased the additional year. So, my fridge door just broke (inside piece that allows the bottom tray to extend) and the dealer concurred that it is still warranty.

As far as I am aware, nobody else does this.

Saved me $150.

YMMV

[ALJO]

When you are nice to Jayco..........Jayco will be nice and supportive to you.
Hope Thor takes over this attitude.......

[n2bowling]

Thanks for the replies.

[SkyBound]

We all know that RVing doesn't make financial sense. It's ridiculous when you think about it. They are expensive to buy, store (for some), pull, maintain, insure, and even use. They wear, break, get damaged, and age.

But most of us are in it for the little moments all that hassle and expense buys. The sound of the rain on the roof in the middle of the night; the kids tucked dry and warm in their bunks; the afternoons at the beach; the dog chasing squirrels all day long; taking a dump in your own bathroom versus a smelly outhouse.... THESE are the things that keep us coming back for more, and these are the things that give us the perseverance to push through the things that break or fail, the lack of quality that should have been there but isn't. It's addictive and not for everyone. For those that don't have the bug, it will be a financial burden and a headache. For those that love it, it will be a challenge and a passion.

[FeatherFam]

x2 - It's an addiction and an escape, worth to us in end. Just have to have the right mindset about it.

[travelingjw]

I just have to weigh in. We bought our 23MRB a year ago and have very few problems. The biggest one was the strap they they used to hold a table in place pulled out and the table fell and scratched the refrigerator door. The quality of my unit was great. Yes, there are a few gaps in molding, the bumpers on the shower fell off, and they had to recall the lights. But, I sell Real Estate. If anyone expects they are going to purchase a box on wheels, drive it at 65 MPH, hit pot holes, bumps, cracks, driveways, etc. and there are not going to be problems.....As far as the workers, this has been going on since the 70's and will continue. I used to sell air tools to the RV industry in the 70's and 80's. Even then the pressure to produce was tough. The goal is to complete a unit is "x" amount of time; that is why they have dealers and provide warranties. I am not saying that I like it, but the view is a real one. And I agree with, if you treat Jayco right they will treat you right. I gave a Service Writer a positive review on Yelp. He had gone out of his way to point something out to me that was not in the "scope" of work. When I called him for service the next time; there was no question that I was going to be treated well. Gratitude spreads! Let's welcome Thor and communicate to them what we have liked and what might be improved. Even CEO's respond (sometimes) to positive suggestions. Finally, I was a carpenter who watched "piece work" develop. We purchase trailers built with that economic reality. The workers depend upon these jobs to feed their families, they are not (generally) looking to produce a poor product.

[jaycojay]

[QUOTE=Wandermuch;567034]Done all I could, more than I should be expected to considering what we paid and gave up to get this POS. Dealer tells me NOW that this is what I should expect. "It's an RV and you should expect to have multiple issues."

I remember back in the 80's when Detroit had the same attitude as these guys. "You'll take what we build and how we build it." This let rise to the quality import. Where;s Detroit now? Buildings rotting away and all vehicles being built elsewhere.





A little off topic here ...... but if you havn't visited Detroit lately, you don't know what u're missing. Here is a city on the rise, they are cleaning it up .....Downtown Detroit is fabulous! Secondly, lets remember the imports of 70's and 80's ....they were crap too!

Yes, Jayco quality has slid in recent years, but they do stand behind their product, and issues can be dealt with by your dealer. PDI is done by the dealer ... thats what you pay for .... so, maybe its the dealers who are dropping the ball on his issues. Not sure about anyone else, but i don't ever remember picking up my new trailer and going over it with a fine tooth comb!

[norty1]

Originally Posted by SkyBound

We all know that RVing doesn't make financial sense. It's ridiculous when you think about it. They are expensive to buy, store (for some), pull, maintain, insure, and even use. They wear, break, get damaged, and age.

You can say that about "most" purchases and all marriages.

[NC Roamer]

Originally Posted by SkyBound

We all know that RVing doesn't make financial sense.

RVing is a hobby. We are paying money for the fun and enjoyment it brings us.

On a purely economic basis, fishing and hunting make no sense either. I can eat in a lot of fine restaurants for what a season of hunting and boating costs. But for people who enjoy those activities, it's worth every penny. Same with RVing.

[pconroy]

Originally Posted by NC Roamer

RVing is a hobby. We are paying money for the fun and enjoyment it brings us.

On a purely economic basis, fishing and hunting make no sense either. I can eat in a lot of fine restaurants for what a season of hunting and boating costs. But for people who enjoy those activities, it's worth every penny. Same with RVing.

Well said!
I'm an amateur woodworker, I can't compete with IKEA.

[WeRJuliian]

Originally Posted by pconroy

Well said!
I'm an amateur woodworker, I can't compete with IKEA.

I bet you don't have so many product recalls, either... :-)