Winterizing without antifreeze

[RetiredOne]

Originally Posted by pconroy

After crawling underneath and seeing the piping job - I know for a fact, that no amount of air flow is going to eliminate *all* of the water.

This is correct.

If everyone crawled under their rigs, and saw that mess of piping, they would invest in multiple gallons of the pink stuff, and get it in every pipe and fitting.

Once air can get a clear path though the pipes, it pass right over standing water. Then, that standing water runs back to the low point. If that low point is a fitting and not just Pex tubing, guess what happens when it freezes?

[madmaxmutt]

Originally Posted by Midnightmoon

The reason to use compressed air isn't a matter of saving money for many of us. It is a matter of convenience. We use our trailer nearly all year long, especially when we get those warm stretches of weather in January and February that seem to happen every year here in PA. So, we end up "winterizing" 3, 4, 5 times a year. That's a lot of antifreeze to deal with, a lot of time and water to flush the system etc.

If we were winterizing in the fall and not touching it until the spring, it may be a different story. But for now, and many years before this, the compressed air method and a little antifreeze in the p traps works quite well.

Yup, It isn't because I am cheap. It is an additional hassle and a waste.
1. We typically need to winterize at least three times.
2. I have never had a reason for using antifreeze. I am diligent and capable of using the compressed air method. I have been doing it for years without issue.
3. I don't want to lug extra jugs on trips. (I already need one for the tanks and traps.)
4. Some water in a fitting won't crack it. A lot of water might, if it has nowhere to expand to. Again, I have been doing this for years without any of the Internet perceived expansion and cracking.

[madmaxmutt]

Originally Posted by RetiredOne

This is correct.

If everyone crawled under their rigs, and saw that mess of piping, they would invest in multiple gallons of the pink stuff, and get it in every pipe and fitting.

Once air can get a clear path though the pipes, it pass right over standing water. Then, that standing water runs back to the low point. If that low point is a fitting and not just Pex tubing, guess what happens when it freezes?

There is no needed antifreeze, for sprinklers. I think there are millions of people that only use compressed air to blow out, their sprinklers. Each sprinkler head has a fitting and they don't break because of some minimal standing water. If there is an air path, there is room for freezing expansion.

[RetiredOne]

Originally Posted by madmaxmutt

There is no needed antifreeze, for sprinklers. I think there are millions of people that only use compressed air to blow out, their sprinklers. Each sprinkler head has a fitting and they don't break because of some minimal standing water. If there is an air path, there is room for freezing expansion.

Poor comparison. The sprinkler head stands above the bottom of the pipes, so it wouldn't be touching any residual water laying in the pipes.

Where does the water line connect to the fresh water tank in the rig or attach to the cold water feed of a water heater.

[madmaxmutt]

Originally Posted by RetiredOne

Poor comparison. The sprinkler head stands above the bottom of the pipes, so it wouldn't be touching any residual water laying in the pipes.

Where does the water line connect to the fresh water tank in the rig or attach to the cold water feed of a water heater.

There are fittings in the ground for each sprinkler head.

Irrelevant, as the water heater is bypassed without antifreeze and the tank would always be drained.

[SloPoke]

Originally Posted by Toby

Mind sharing your process with me

Originally Posted by Brian_HR

I'm interested in the SloPoke air winterization process as well. I live in CO and although it gets below freezing in the winter we can have some really nice winter days as well and would love to be able to take advantage without spending all day de-winterizing.

Originally Posted by Rice1951

So I am curious. The washing machine winterization procedure specifically states to run antifreeze through it and run it through the specified cycles. How would I use compressed air and be able to hear it if the machine is running? Also, how would you blow water out of the washing machine drain?
I get that you can use air to clear out the supply lines to the washer but there are valves to control the flow of water in and out of the machine. How do you ensure the valves are open to get the water out if you aren’t operating the machine itself?
I’m not trying to be a horse’s rear end. I’m all for learning a better way if there is one but I would need a detailed procedure similar to what is in the washing machine manual.

First - Turn off power to Water Heater and water pump

Open all low point drains, set the water intake valves to City Water.

Run washer thru the fill cycle for hot and cold to let air into the lines and drain down.

Open all faucets and let everything drain out

shut off icemaker supply and open the line on both sides of the icemaker water valve the back of the fridge to drain Open icemaker supply line to drain back

Remove Water Filter element, drain and Set bypass valves

Charge air compressor - use air regulator that is adjustable - set to 5 PSI - do not connect to motorhome yet.

Once low point drains are finished draining - close all valves on faucets, low point drains, washer OFF. Replace lines on icemaker

Set Water valves on Normal - Connect air to City Water fill - set water valve on Country Fill and apply 5PSI. cycle the water pump on / off for 20 seconds until air is flowing thru the see-thru filter. Cycle the water valves to
Winterize for 10 seconds

Set water valves on Water Tank Fill (1-6) raise pressure to 20PSI you will hear water being blown thru the plumbing into the water tank.

Set water valves to City Water and open the farthest faucet - hot / cold and raise air pressure to 30 when the water is blown out (watch for splash-back)
Close valves

Open low point drain hot until water is gone -close valve. Next the same on the cold, next on the water heater low point drain, Next any remaining low point drains.

Have inside faucets opened / closed one at a time until no water. Bathrooms, Toilet, Shower, Outside Shower. Cycle Washer thru a fill cycle for about 20 seconds on Hot and again on cold - shut off. Cycle the ice maker thru a fill cycle (you have to turn on the fridge and be on AC power)
Shut all faucets inside -

Run washer thru drain / spin cycle _ if you wish to use Antifreeze, or follow the washer's winterizing instructions. Your supply lines are clear.

DW's work is done

Raise air pressure to 40PSI and cycle each low point drain open / closed - one at a time.

Stow the compressor away. Leave the water valve on City Water Supply and open the water heaters low point valve.

done!

[SloPoke]

Originally Posted by Jagiven

My buddy travels from MN to Florida at least once every winter for a few weeks in his class B MH. He stays winterized until he gets to warm climates. He flushes with windshield fluid, and hauls water for drinking and so forth. Gets south and flushes the system.

On his way back he winterizes once he feels he needs to and back windshield fluid and bottled water.

We travel to MN and FL in the winter too... We did not winterize this trip.
Photo: Prior Lake MN

[SloPoke]

Originally Posted by Kim Gass

Thanks Rick. The most PITA of dewinterizing is sanitizing so for these quick dewinterizing situations I think we can skip the santizing.

The most exposure we will get on the way back on our trip is maybe two days of sub freezing.

LOL I only counted three faucets?

Sorry for hijack but the detour has been helpful for me.

Agree... add the work to flush 5 gallons of RV-antifreeze (RVA) and it is a two hour ordeal.. Flush, empty, Flush, Empty, Sanitize, flush, Empty, Flush, Fill.

Originally Posted by MontanaRick

I counted the number that have to be run to winterize. Hot and cold on the kitchen sink, hot and cold on the shower = 4 that need to be run to winterize.

... For us, 4-low point drains, Kitchen Hot/Cold/Hot-Bypass, Bathroom Washbasin Hot/Cold, Bathroom Shower Hot/Cold, Washer Hot/Cold, Outdoor Shower Hot/Cold

Originally Posted by Midnightmoon

The reason to use compressed air isn't a matter of saving money for many of us. It is a matter of convenience. We use our trailer nearly all year long, especially when we get those warm stretches of weather in January and February that seem to happen every year here in PA. So, we end up "winterizing" 3, 4, 5 times a year. That's a lot of antifreeze to deal with, a lot of time and water to flush the system etc.

If we were winterizing in the fall and not touching it until the spring, it may be a different story. But for now, and many years before this, the compressed air method and a little antifreeze in the p traps works quite well.

We are in the same situation... Adding the flush/fill/flush/sanitize/flush/fill to each cycle sucks. Water expands... but if the pipe is not totally full - it won't burst.

Originally Posted by madmaxmutt

Yup, It isn't because I am cheap. It is an additional hassle and a waste.
1. We typically need to winterize at least three times.
2. I have never had a reason for using antifreeze. I am diligent and capable of using the compressed air method. I have been doing it for years without issue.
3. I don't want to lug extra jugs on trips. (I already need one for the tanks and traps.)
4. Some water in a fitting won't crack it. A lot of water might, if it has nowhere to expand to. Again, I have been doing this for years without any of the Internet perceived expansion and cracking.

Agree... You have to get EVERY fitting drained... You can expect to have a problem if you forget to get one simple step that you missed.

For those who have diesels... you also need to make sure your fuel is treated for the cold temperatures... and run that fuel all the way into your Genny

[Brian_HR]

Originally Posted by SloPoke

First - Turn off power to Water Heater and water pump

Open all low point drains, set the water intake valves to City Water.

...

Raise air pressure to 40PSI and cycle each low point drain open / closed - one at a time.

Stow the compressor away. Leave the water valve on City Water Supply and open the water heaters low point valve.

done!

Great writeup SloPoke.

Do you need to do anything special about the water pump or when you open each faucet does that blow all the water out of the water pump?

Do you leave the faucets and low point drains open?

Thanks

[SloPoke]

Originally Posted by Brian_HR

Great writeup SloPoke.

Do you need to do anything special about the water pump or when you open each faucet does that blow all the water out of the water pump?

Do you leave the faucets and low point drains open?

Thanks

the first few steps you take with compressed air at 3--5PSI are intended to clear the water from the manifold and water pump. With just a little air pressure to help the pump pass the air thru the valves is helpful to clear out the pump from water. I use the clear filter that is on the pump inlet to give me a visual on how that is progressing.

After winterizing - Yes I leave the low point drains open, especially the one on the Seneca's Water heater - it is very vulnerable to freezing.

[Bob K]

Originally Posted by spoon059

Never understood this. $5 worth of antifreeze will almost completely eliminate any issues. Its easy and foolproof to do. Why re-invent the wheel? Maybe you'll get enough air pressure to clear out the lines, maybe you won't. For $5 a year and about 10 minutes time, I'll use antifreeze.

This might be safe and practical for people who winterize once and never use the trailer again until spring.

It's a practical option for folks who use the TT year round or who travel in an out of cold places. For me, it beats having the rinse out the RVAF multiple times per season or prior to spur of the moment trips when the weather is good.

[Bob K]

Originally Posted by madmaxmutt

Yup, It isn't because I am cheap. It is an additional hassle and a waste.
1. We typically need to winterize at least three times.
2. I have never had a reason for using antifreeze. I am diligent and capable of using the compressed air method. I have been doing it for years without issue.
3. I don't want to lug extra jugs on trips. (I already need one for the tanks and traps.)
4. Some water in a fitting won't crack it. A lot of water might, if it has nowhere to expand to. Again, I have been doing this for years without any of the Internet perceived expansion and cracking.

Here's one data point that indicates pressure buildup--and not merely ice expansion--causes cracks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuPO5hKdo8A

1. Your sprinkler system analogy is apropos. I can never get every last drop out of the system but since there's room for that 9% ice expansion and the system is open (so no pressure buildup), I've never had freeze cracks. Another good analogy is how it's quite common for folks (myself included) to freeze liquid in glass mason jars. So long as there's sufficient headspace and the cap isn't air tight while it freezes, no breakage.
2. I don't just blow air through the TT system one time and then walk away. I realize some water will run back to low points, so I hit it with air, wait several minutes for settling, and hit it with air again. I'll repeat this a few times until I'm satisfied with the volume of air or mist coming out of the service point. Got a quick connect with a valve this year (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0827GDP6N) and it makes it pretty easy to do this.
3. After air, I leave all valves and faucets open so that pressure can't build up if any freezing does occur.
4. So long as I'm diligent, air is far more convenient and time saving than RVAF (i.e. no rinsing) since I use the TT year round up north of you.

[don_kleinschnitz]

There are two videos that this RVer has done that I think have some logical tests and results.

The big concern in the air only winterizing process is not the piping but the other elements like pumps and valves.
Seems to me this fits in the category of "your results may vary"....

These RVs seem to be manufactured without much standardization and most of the plumbing endpoints are cheap. So I think using CA only is a crapshoot.

https://youtu.be/NH4xfcXeccU
https://youtu.be/ySjb1GPrIQI

[don_kleinschnitz]

Attached is the manual I wrote after winterizing my new RV this year.
I have always done trailers before and have always used just AF.

Let me know of any improvements you see necessary in the document.

[Michigan-Traveler]

a question I have on the anti-freeze is what if it doesn't suck in like it is supposed to? Last year when I tried on my Greyhawk class "C" it would not work well. Some one suggested turning a valve around at the water intake. Can someone elaborate on that?

[Jagiven]

Originally Posted by Michigan-Traveler

a question I have on the anti-freeze is what if it doesn't suck in like it is supposed to? Last year when I tried on my Greyhawk class "C" it would not work well. Some one suggested turning a valve around at the water intake. Can someone elaborate on that?

I do not believe they would have said turn the "Valve Around" but remove the cone washer at the hose connection, and re install it with the cone inwards to press on the check valve.

If you are having issues with the pump sucking, you might want to put the RV antifreeze up on a small table to make priming the pump easier.

[Michigan-Traveler]

Thanks JAGiven. There was not a cone on my gasket, but that made sense so I went to the local hardware and picked one up, which should solve the problem. I appreciate your help.

[pconroy]

Originally Posted by Michigan-Traveler

Thanks JAGiven. There was not a cone on my gasket, but that made sense so I went to the local hardware and picked one up, which should solve the problem. I appreciate your help.

Yep - I have to flip the conical screen on mine. Point the tip in so it depresses the check-valve. The other two things I have to do are: elevate the jug of antifreeze and make sure the hose connection between the RV and the jug is tight! No air leaks.


Once I do those three things, I can usually suck in AF without issues.

[madmaxmutt]

Originally Posted by Michigan-Traveler

a question I have on the anti-freeze is what if it doesn't suck in like it is supposed to? Last year when I tried on my Greyhawk class "C" it would not work well. Some one suggested turning a valve around at the water intake. Can someone elaborate on that?

Pretty subjective statements. What exactly does it not do well?

It either works or doesn't. It might be slow, if you don't have complete air tight connections. Which could be a valve not fully in the correct position.

[tramagli]

I also use the compressed air method, no antifreeze. I used antifreeze once in a previous travel trailer, and didn't even blow out the lines in my trailer before that, and never had a problem. Here in CO it could freeze in September or not until November. Using the RV all year, this just saves from multiple winterizing/de-winterizing/sanitizing cycles.