Disc brake failure

[Dskyward]

[QUOTE=Dskyward;690496]Just wanted to ask around if anyone has ever experienced or heard of a catastrophic failure in any type of trailer disc brake conversion like below?

The Story:
This past Thurs evening, we’re pulling our 42’ Jayco North Point 377 RLBH with <2.5 yrs/25k Kodiak disc brake miles into the second rest area of the day, entering at 15 mph, and come to a stop...and it took a good bit of pedal pressure to do it. The trailer was really pushing us. I put in drive again and press the BrakeSmart controller button and NOTHING as we go forward another 30’. I backed it up to the original stop. First, I checked the TV master cylinder, it’s full. I go back to the camper and see this long fresh fluid trail and find this:


This is the driver side front axle wheel. Notice the position of the caliper. It’s supposed to be at the 9 o’clock trailing position, not at 6. All five caliper mounting bracket studs are gone! The brake hose was ripped from the caliper now hanging in front of the axle. I searched all around for stud remnants (should be 10) but couldn’t find any. I walked our entrance path back another 200 yards or so...no fresh fluid trail or stud remnants. We were very fortunate this mishap happened at a rest area. It rained on us twice during the two hours it took to figure out a bandaid solution, as the caliper was contacting/dragging the inner wheel and that would throw a hell of a spark or fire display had we not have discovered this failure and continued. I ended up finding two matching bolt and nuts(smaller) in my spare collection to attach the caliper bracket back at 9 o’clock thru two accessible holes without having to remove the rotor. I did remove the tire and found minimal gouging scratches inside the wheel. I was a completely soaked dirty greasy pig after the ordeal. Fortunately, I have my closet with me.

Before leaving, I had the DW press hard on the brake to find no more fluid coming from the dangling line. So that long trail of fluid in that parking lane was it. As you can see in the pic it really splattered the tire and wheel thoroughly. We made it 35 mi safely into Ft Wayne, awaiting for a call from a repair shop to fit us in. Everyone is booked full for weeks.

Kodiak brake kit came from ETrailer and do not come with bracket mounting studs. It’s accepted the factory axle drum brake studs are reused. I’ve 7k Lippert axles. But in this case I remember the mechanic saying they had to get longer studs, so I’m not sure who’s really at fault, that this was an unfortunate happen stance.

I welcome all replies if anyone has seen/heard this stud failure happen.

[Mopar_Earl]

I researched for months before buying my kits. First I've heard of it.

You're right to wonder about the installer installing longer bolts. Did he use the wrong grade? The wrong torque? Forgot to torque them? Bolts only break if they are of the wrong grade and/or tightness for the application. I'd definitely be concerned about the other caliper brackets!

Earl

[Dskyward]

Yes indeed Earl, thanks on that. It’s out of warranty with them obviously. I asked them and they barely remember me as they don’t do this specialty operation often, but other RV servicing. The ph guy said it’d be next to impossible to know what grade bolts were used and what torque applied. I’m trying to edit a picture in and having some difficulty. Edit...Ah, attached now.

[Mopar_Earl]

Brakesmart huh? I have one of those dinosaurs too. Had it in my 93 Dodge. Never got around to installing it in my 07 Dodge. Have the P3.

Yeah getting anyone to step up and accept accountably is extremely rare.

I'd contract Kodiak and see if they have the hardware you need and replace them all and torque them with a good torque wrench to Kodiak's specs. The others could be ticking time bombs. Or could be that bracket didn't get the bolts torqued and were loose and sheard over time. You just don't know. Or they used different hardware on the bracket.


Earl

[oldmanAZ]

Originally Posted by Dskyward

Yes indeed Earl, thanks on that. It’s out of warranty with them obviously. I asked them and they barely remember me as they don’t do this specialty operation often, but other RV servicing. The ph guy said it’d be next to impossible to know what grade bolts were used and what torque applied. I’m trying to edit a picture in and having some difficulty.

How many 'longer bolts' were needed? Wouldn't they use the same length and grade bolts everywhere longer bolts were needed?

[Dskyward]

Thanks Earl. I did contact Kodiak yesterday and finally the gentleman returned my call and said the factory axle studs to the drum brakes get reused, but I recalled the installer had to go with longer studs. They can’t see me until Nov, so I’ve contacted Morryde Intl in Elkhart for an opening. They are Kodiak dealer and specialist. I’ll know something on Mon. I’ll certainly have them inspect the remaining studs.

[Dskyward]

Originally Posted by oldmanAZ

How many 'longer bolts' were needed? Wouldn't they use the same length and grade bolts everywhere longer bolts were needed?

Thanks for the reply oldmanAZ, I guess all studs were replaced...thought each axle had 5 stud bolts, but there’s 8 holes on the bracket and I recalled seeing a YT video that also needed longer studs. The facility had my rig for 3 days getting it all installed. $1700 for labor and more parts. I thought they did a remarkable job, aside from all the parts from the kit ETrailer sent me...it didn’t include the Titan actuator mounting bracket, and yet other wiring items didn’t meet the right lengths and stuff according to the installers. Plus ETrailer sent me the incorrect part no on the rotors. Right size, but came raw...I ordered E-coated. So there. So many parts and duties involved on a project like this and being fulltimers, well you can understand I’ve limited tools on hand.

[Dskyward]

Originally Posted by Mopar_Earl

Brakesmart huh? I have one of those dinosaurs too. Had it in my 93 Dodge. Never got around to installing it in my 07 Dodge. Have the P3.


Earl

I forgot to add our 07.5 dually MC 6.7 came with the Brakesmart, when we bought it used in Jan 2016. PO was towing goosenecks. After researching what I could find on the Internet (a pdf manual), I really like it. Original owners back then really raved about its technology being ahead of its time in that it made for fantastic towing of vehicles behind class A MHs/DPs. It worked off the TVs master cylinder unlike a timer, pendulum inertia type controllers and could be dialed in perfectly and the driver felt he was only stopping one vehicle.

[Mopar_Earl]

I loved the brakesmart when I had it in my 93. I kept it to put into my 07 but didn't want any crap from the dealer on warranty issues so I installed a P3. Just never installed the brakesmart after my warranties expired. Just the other day I pondered installing it. Lol the P3 is ok for electric brakes. Once I get my hydraulic disk brakes installed, I will do how it performs. I hope better. If not I will install my brakesmart.

Wonder how many people will wonder what a brakesmart is?? Lol king of the world back in the day.


Earl

[Dskyward]

Originally Posted by oldmanAZ

How many 'longer bolts' were needed? Wouldn't they use the same length and grade bolts everywhere longer bolts were needed?

Just discovered a photo from my archives one set of the original brake drum and mount showing 5 removed studs, which I sold on Craigslist.

These are from the Lippert 7k axles for 2017.

[Mopar_Earl]

After months of research I went with Kodiak disk kits and a Hydrastar actuator. I have all the materials to do the install. Just haven't had time. I will run nicopp brake lines with SS stone guarding. SS tube clamps. Running a 1/4" main. Using SS braided brake hoses that are DOT. I picked my location for the Hydrastar and how I want to run my lines. Just need the time. That's always my issue, not enough time! Lol


Earl

[Dskyward]

Originally Posted by Mopar_Earl

After months of research I went with Kodiak disk kits and a Hydrastar actuator. I have all the materials to do the install. Just haven't had time. I will run nicopp brake lines with SS stone guarding. SS tube clamps. Running a 1/4" main. Using SS braided brake hoses that are DOT. I picked my location for the Hydrastar and how I want to run my lines. Just need the time. That's always my issue, not enough time! Lol


Earl

I hear you. I envy your access to tools. I like working with wood, since I was 8, I don’t have a shop right now, we sold our home with my 2 car garage mancave, but a 3 car space one is in the make on paper at this time for our 5 acres in TX hill country.

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by Dskyward

The ph guy said it’d be next to impossible to know what grade bolts were used .

Grade should be coded on end of the bolt.

[bap]

Originally Posted by Grumpy

Grade should be coded on end of the bolt.

Smooth bolt head= Grade 2
3 hash marks on bolt head= Grade 5
5 hash marks on bolt head= Grade 8

[Dskyward]

Originally Posted by bap

Smooth bolt head= Grade 2

3 hash marks on bolt head= Grade 5

5 hash marks on bolt head= Grade 8

Thanks bap. I believe that two of the five are visible. I’ll ck. Now I need to know what proper torque for each?

[Dskyward]

I can’t quite tell from the orig res pic, but here’s a view of the before. The one to the right. . I see that 3 hex heads are visible. Just can’t quite make out the ticks.

[Dskyward]

Ok I couldn’t help myself not knowing the grade bolt used, so I crawled underneath the passenger side under the dinette slide and here’s what I captured:
3 ticks alright...Looks like grade 5 and some other numbers/letters. Anyone know what it means?

[Dskyward]

Update:
MORryde Int’l let me down today. They can’t see us to repair the brakes before Oct 19. Way too late. So I’ve got another trailer specialist nearby who said 2 weeks at the earliest, or Oct 9, still not good for us. Still searching for another shop.

However, I got the 2 broken parts ordered to be here in two days. I just need to work on getting 20 correct studs and matching nuts...of which here is a random one I pulled off the opposite side rear to satisfy my curiosity of a sample of the 15 left. A reminder- it isn’t factory and doesn’t belong to Lippert, the shop installed these longer bolts(it is grade 5 3/8”x1”x24 tpi):


As you can see, the threads appear in good condition and not stripped or worn. Notice the nut with the starwheel. The starwheel will not pull off as one would think. This nut looks rather a special nut as it has a very slight conical lip like that of a lug nut, which extends past the starwheel slightly and this had a good bite into the threads when removing, as if it was some kind of locking nut. With 1” lengths, two threads were seen past the nut as it was mounted. Notice in the threads, a quarter inch from the end, some interesting residue that may have been there from the factory for a kind of lock-tight ingredient?

Before removing this bolt, I performed a torque and motion test by hand as advised earlier, and two others around it with a 7” open end 9/16” wrench on the bolt head. Turning clockwise to get movement, head and the nut moved together- I’d estimate about a 35-45 lb ft force if I had a 12” wrench. So I believe these three bolts appear to be in satisfactory shape.

And after further inspection on the same wheel, I spot a different bolt ID:

Grade 5, and has a triangle stamp. So the shop mixed in at least two bolt manufacturers so far.

There is a Fastenal bolt supplier here in Fort Wayne that I got to talk with earlier about stud replacements. It was suggested on another forum that I try to acquire a bolt with threads on the last half inch, so that 3/8” smooth shank would take full shear force, making for a stronger hold. Makes sense to me, but they don’t have anything like that. All their 1 inch bolts are fully threaded. I will go over there tomorrow and try to pick out their best bolts and locknuts.

Thanks again to all who have replied here with great advice! It is very appreciated.

[PlayersZ28]

OE was studs on the axle and they replaced with bolts? With the proper grade and torque that shouldn't be an issue but if they were over/under tq'd it would.

To get a non-thread in the 1st 1/4" you need a wheel stud. Does the bolt thread fit tightly into the hole? If you can get a dimension for the hole the knurl fits into then you should be able to look up a stud on RockAuto or go to a NAPA or similar to find one. If you had one of the original ones it would be pretty easy.

For bolts I use Brafasco up here but don't think they are in the US but are a division of HD Supply.

[Dskyward]

Originally Posted by PlayersZ28

OE was studs on the axle and they replaced with bolts?

(Dskyward)-
“Yes, that is correct”

With the proper grade and torque that shouldn't be an issue but if they were over/under tq'd it would.

To get a non-thread in the 1st 1/4" you need a wheel stud. Does the bolt thread fit tightly into the hole?

“It’s hard for me to say on that. I was lying down in an uncomfortable position on hard rocks here at the campground, and only removed one bolt and couldn’t verify that both metal plates were perfectly lined up. I only removed the bolt and didn’t play around with it. It slid out easy. I’m just guessing the clamping force of five properly torqued nuts is more than adequate to keep both plates to 0 movement.”

If you can get a dimension for the hole the knurl fits into then you should be able to look up a stud on RockAuto or go to a NAPA or similar to find one. If you had one of the original ones it would be pretty easy.

“All I have is the old photo of the orig studs. They can be looked up online. I’m going to Fastenal today to check their inventory, as I called NAPA and they referred me to them..”

For bolts I use Brafasco up here but don't think they are in the US but are a division of HD Supply.

Answers above.