Inverted Outlets

[FordRanger89]

Hello all,

My wife and I just bought a 2023 Jayco Eagle 355mbqs. I have been fixing the manufacture mistakes/laziness and just about have the rid dialed in. I am sure you have all experienced this...
Out 5th wheel has the second stage off grid set up. So 380w solar, 1800w inverter and 30 amp solar controller. I have also added two led acid batteries giving me 140 usable amp hours. This will at least get me through the night running the residential refrigerator and furnace. We will upgrade to lithium once these batteries die.

On the last trip we took we realized how nice it would be if we had usable inverted outlets in the bunk room and kitchen. I thought about adding outlets to the passthrough side of the inverter but the more you add, the more outlets you have hooked up to a 15 amp breaker when hooked up on shore power....

We have decided to invert the whole rig.

So, I think this is my plan. First reroute 15 amp breaker (inverted/residential fridge breaker) to bypass the inverter making it a stand circuit. Next, right at the back of the breaker box, split the 50 amp shore cable and route the 30 amp portion (white, black and green. Leave the second 120v red wire alone) to the inverter and back to the back of the breaker box. The inverter says it can handle 30amps as passthrough, so it should be able to handle it.

This would make it so, most importantly, I have power to all outlets but also prevent the need for a transfer switch box or the need to run a cable from the inverter to the outside 50amp plug.

The only thing I will have to remember to do is shut off the converter and probably the ac breakers.

I will also still be able to use the factory jaycommand system to turn on and off the inverter (but it does that automatically when you hook up to shore power).

Has anyone done this? It seems pretty straight forward? Am I missing anything?
I am not an electrician but I am pretty mechanically inclined.

[craigav]

To run an inverter to all of the outlets requires some careful planning and considerations. However it is important to know that , "Next, right at the back of the breaker box, split the 50 amp shore cable and route the 30 amp portion (white, black and green."... , there is no 30 amp portion of the cable as both legs (black and red wires) are on a 50 amp breaker. ~CA

[FordRanger89]

Originally Posted by craigav

To run an inverter to all of the outlets requires some careful planning and considerations. However it is important to know that , "Next, right at the back of the breaker box, split the 50 amp shore cable and route the 30 amp portion (white, black and green."... , there is no 30 amp portion of the cable as both legs (black and red wires) are on a 50 amp breaker. ~CA

Thanks for responding. I appreciate it.
I totally agree. It does require careful planning and considerations. That's why I am on here talking to people who know more about this then I do.

You are right, I defiantly over looked that and my wording is weird. My understanding is that a 2 pole 50 amp breaker doesn't actually put out 100 amps. It is a 50 amp breaker. So what are the chances of carrying more than 30 amps through the inverter? Only one leg of the 50 amp connection would be traveling through the inverter. Does that make since or am I way off?

Thanks again for your input!

[kirkelli]

I went through these headaches, had my 2000 watt inverter installed to power all the outlets which gets tricky with a 50 amp panel, but it can be done. I then learned it just wasn't cutting my needs, so I invested in the Victron Multi Plus II inverter/charger and never looked back.. I highly recommend you dont waste your time and money on what you suggest to do and just go straight to the Multiples II, because you eventually will. Especially if you enjoy a lot of boon docking. The MultiPlus is a true 50Amp 3000 watt inverter that can easily power all outlets in your coach,. Of course, you still need to be mindful of your current draw, but i can tell you from experience you can run a lot.. I've got 1,400 wats of solar and 800Amps of Battery and never once dropped below 50% capacity in a given day with exception when i run my AC unit off inverter. I'm getting ready to add another MultiPlus, and 1,200 more watts of solar and should be able to run the AC just off Solar.. Knowing what i do now and looking back, i wish i didn't waste all the money with a bunch of little upgrades.. Do it once, and you'll save $$$$ in the end.

[craigav]

I have to run but can provide more information later, perhaps others will jump in and share some information as well.

While it is true that a 50a breaker only allows for ~50a before it trips, it is also true that each wire (leg) of your incoming cable is capable of providing 50a each so even though neither leg is able to provide 100a in of itself, each wire would support 50a and because you have two legs of current, the total capacity that the RV could pull would be 100a. Most discussions in such a setup discuss watts, so with that in mind, 100a times 120v = 12,000 watts and 50a times 120v = 6000 watts times two legs = 12,000 watts again.

In any case, it isn't the breaker that determines the load going through it, you certainly could have a 50a connection and only pull 30a (or any amps less than the breakers rating). What determines how many amps (or watts) will be used is based on what you have electrically running in the RV. Small items like TV's use very little and A/C's, microwaves, hair driers, etc., use a lot of power. The problem with using an inverter with only a 30a transfer switch with an RV setup for 50a service is that you could easily overload the inverter and damage it, however that all depends on what you have powered on regardless of if the inverter is on or off. In other words the transfer relay in the inverter is only rated for 30a which means even with the inverter powered off and you are on shore power, you would have to make sure that you never exceeded 30a. ~CA

[FordRanger89]

Originally Posted by craigav

I have to run but can provide more information later, perhaps others will jump in and share some information as well.

While it is true that a 50a breaker only allows for ~50a before it trips, it is also true that each wire (leg) of your incoming cable is capable of providing 50a each so even though neither leg is able to provide 100a in of itself, each wire would support 50a and because you have two legs of current, the total capacity that the RV could pull would be 100a. Most discussions in such a setup discuss watts, so with that in mind, 100a times 120v = 12,000 watts and 50a times 120v = 6000 watts times two legs = 12,000 watts again.

In any case, it isn't the breaker that determines the load going through it, you certainly could have a 50a connection and only pull 30a (or any amps less than the breakers rating). What determines how many amps (or watts) will be used is based on what you have electrically running in the RV. Small items like TV's use very little and A/C's, microwaves, hair driers, etc., use a lot of power. The problem with using an inverter with only a 30a transfer switch with an RV setup for 50a service is that you could easily overload the inverter and damage it, however that all depends on what you have powered on regardless of if the inverter is on or off. In other words the transfer relay in the inverter is only rated for 30a which means even with the inverter powered off and you are on shore power, you would have to make sure that you never exceeded 30a. ~CA

That all makes a lot of since. I really appreciate your response and knowledge. I definitely need to do some more thinking with this. It kind of seems I will need to wire in a transfer switch to be on the safe side. That way I wont be running it through my inverter.

[FordRanger89]

Originally Posted by kirkelli

I went through these headaches, had my 2000 watt inverter installed to power all the outlets which gets tricky with a 50 amp panel, but it can be done. I then learned it just wasn't cutting my needs, so I invested in the Victron Multi Plus II inverter/charger and never looked back.. I highly recommend you dont waste your time and money on what you suggest to do and just go straight to the Multiples II, because you eventually will. Especially if you enjoy a lot of boon docking. The MultiPlus is a true 50Amp 3000 watt inverter that can easily power all outlets in your coach,. Of course, you still need to be mindful of your current draw, but i can tell you from experience you can run a lot.. I've got 1,400 wats of solar and 800Amps of Battery and never once dropped below 50% capacity in a given day with exception when i run my AC unit off inverter. I'm getting ready to add another MultiPlus, and 1,200 more watts of solar and should be able to run the AC just off Solar.. Knowing what i do now and looking back, i wish i didn't waste all the money with a bunch of little upgrades.. Do it once, and you'll save $$$$ in the end.

I totally get what you are saying. However, we are not supper big on dry camping. We have one spot we like to go that is off grid but it is heavily shaded so solar does little. Honestly, it would just be a matter of running the generator to recharge the batteries every day. I just don't want the generator constantly running and that's why we want more outlets inverted.
I was just thinking of a way I could spend $50 on cable and rewire some things to make the inverter work for all the outlets....

[kirkelli]

Originally Posted by craigav

The problem with using an inverter with only a 30a transfer switch with an RV setup for 50a service is that you could easily overload the inverter and damage it, however that all depends on what you have powered on regardless of if the inverter is on or off. In other words the transfer relay in the inverter is only rated for 30a which means even with the inverter powered off and you are on shore power, you would have to make sure that you never exceeded 30a. ~CA

Actually, inverters will have a protection cirucit that will trip if overloaded.. Another problem i see people make trying to install inverters on a 50 Amp panel, they end up powering only one side of the panel.. There are some tricks you can do with pig tails to make it work but i dont suggest this with a 30 amp inverter.. A 50 Amp panel is basically two 120V 30A services being split in your breaker panel and the loads in your coach are divided in the panel.. So in true reality you only have two 120V 30 amp services.. Most RV's with 50 Amp service panels can not provide a true 220V service unless one wires a specific 220 service from the panel. And i wouldn't suggest doing so

[Learjet]

If you don't have a generator, a transfer switch that is used for a generator would work.

IF you have the gen prep you may have the transfer switch already. But you need to know 100% what you are doing.

[FordRanger89]

Originally Posted by kirkelli

Actually, inverters will have a protection cirucit that will trip if overloaded.. Another problem i see people make trying to install inverters on a 50 Amp panel, they end up powering only one side of the panel.. There are some tricks you can do with pig tails to make it work but i dont suggest this with a 30 amp inverter.. A 50 Amp panel is basically two 120V 30A services being split in your breaker panel and the loads in your coach are divided in the panel.. So in true reality you only have two 120V 30 amp services.. Most RV's with 50 Amp service panels can not provide a true 220V service unless one wires a specific 220 service from the panel. And i wouldn't suggest doing so

That's good information. I have a question based on that. When I plug into 30amp, why do I have power to the whole board? I had a 2021 jayco eagle that would only run one ac unit on 30 amp but my new trailer has no restrictions when hooked up to 30 amp. Is only half the board getting power an old thing?
If I am tying into the wiring right before the breaker box for my inverter wouldn't that be the same thing as hooking up to shore power 30amp and thus no restrictions?

[FordRanger89]

Originally Posted by Learjet

If you don't have a generator, a transfer switch that is used for a generator would work.

IF you have the gen prep you may have the transfer switch already. But you need to know 100% what you are doing.

It is not gen prep unfortunately. So no transfer switch. They are using the inverter as a pass-through. I have wired a transfer switch before.
Thanks for your input!

[FordRanger89]

Originally Posted by FordRanger89

That's good information. I have a question based on that. When I plug into 30amp, why do I have power to the whole board? I had a 2021 jayco eagle that would only run one ac unit on 30 amp but my new trailer has no restrictions when hooked up to 30 amp. Is only half the board getting power an old thing?
If I am tying into the wiring right before the breaker box for my inverter wouldn't that be the same thing as hooking up to shore power 30amp and thus no restrictions?

I think I found out that information. I think the 1 hot lead in the 30amp adaptor gets split to 2 hot leads to make compatible with the 50 amp trailer. This just means you get less power on both sides of the breaker box correct?

Then I think I might just buy a 50amp transfer switch and split the hot lead from the inverter to make it compatible with the 50amp transfer switch (basically the same as using a 30 to 50amp cord adaptor).

That way, for the time being, I can still use my factory inverter but can always upgrade the inverter down the road.

[kirkelli]

Originally Posted by FordRanger89

That's good information. I have a question based on that. When I plug into 30amp, why do I have power to the whole board? I had a 2021 jayco eagle that would only run one ac unit on 30 amp but my new trailer has no restrictions when hooked up to 30 amp. Is only half the board getting power an old thing?
If I am tying into the wiring right before the breaker box for my inverter wouldn't that be the same thing as hooking up to shore power 30amp and thus no restrictions?

Your 30 Amp pig tail is doing the trick work to supply 120 to both sides. Thats why i said earlier, 'there are tricks one can apply to get a 30A invertor to work both sides.. This is also why you only have 30 amp service, essentiality 15 Amps to both sides of the panel and why it's not a good idea to run both AC's on 30 Amp.

New Coaches are coming out with lower amp draw AC units where they actually can both on 30Amps.. i have no experience with these new AC units but i do hear pros and cons on them. Some say ttey dont cool as well. some say they cool better. I know my brother has a smaller Winabogo, he has one AC unit that only draws 12 amps.. His cools well but also has a lot smaller space.

[kirkelli]

Originally Posted by FordRanger89

That's good information. I have a question based on that. When I plug into 30amp, why do I have power to the whole board? I had a 2021 jayco eagle that would only run one ac unit on 30 amp but my new trailer has no restrictions when hooked up to 30 amp. Is only half the board getting power an old thing?
If I am tying into the wiring right before the breaker box for my inverter wouldn't that be the same thing as hooking up to shore power 30amp and thus no restrictions?

Your 30 Amp pig tail is doing the trick work to supply 120 to both sides. Thats why i said earlier, 'there are tricks one can apply to get a 30A investor to work both sides.. This is los why you only have 30 amp service, essentiality 15 Amps to both sides of the panel and why it's not a good idea to run both AC's on 30 Amp.

[kirkelli]

Originally Posted by FordRanger89

I think I found out that information. I think the 1 hot lead in the 30amp adaptor gets split to 2 hot leads to make compatible with the 50 amp trailer. This just means you get less power on both sides of the breaker box correct?

Then I think I might just buy a 50amp transfer switch and split the hot lead from the inverter to make it compatible with the 50amp transfer switch (basically the same as using a 30 to 50amp cord adaptor).

That way, for the time being, I can still use my factory inverter but can always upgrade the inverter down the road.

You can run a 30 amp inverter to power your coach by making the pigtail to split the voltage as you said.. And this does work but its just a pain.. you can do this without a transfer switch by running your inverter straight into the modified pigtail on the 50 Amp service.. HOWEVER....... Make sure to turn your breaker off for your onboard charger,, else you will waste a lot of energy..

[klassic]

I don’t know if I’m reading what you’re saying right.
If your trailer has 50amp, then you have 50a on two legs. So you have 100a, 50 per side.
When you put on a 30amp pig tail, then you just have 30 amps total… both sides.

What do you plan on plugging into all your 120v recepticals with your inverter?
I have the Tv and the refrigerator…there’s really nothing else to plug in that needs 120v when boondocking.
You don’t have the solar or battery capacity to do anything else. You won’t be using a kettle, the microwave or toaster.
I have 520watts of solar and 230 usable amp hours and I have trouble keeping up most of the time.

You’re doing a lot of work for minimal results.
If you’re carrying a generator then use that if you need a high amp appliance.

[FordRanger89]

Originally Posted by klassic

I don’t know if I’m reading what you’re saying right.
If your trailer has 50amp, then you have 50a on two legs. So you have 100a, 50 per side.
When you put on a 30amp pig tail, then you just have 30 amps total… both sides.

What do you plan on plugging into all your 120v recepticals with your inverter?
I have the Tv and the refrigerator…there’s really nothing else to plug in that needs 120v when boondocking.
You don’t have the solar or battery capacity to do anything else. You won’t be using a kettle, the microwave or toaster.
I have 520watts of solar and 230 usable amp hours and I have trouble keeping up most of the time.

You’re doing a lot of work for minimal results.
If you’re carrying a generator then use that if you need a high amp appliance.

That's a fair question. Honestly, for the time being, it is to plug in a baby monitors in the mid bunk and run a very efficient low draw bottle warmer in the kitchen. In the future I think we might do more. That is why I am thinking about changes that I can add to in the future in stead of redo.

[kirkelli]

here is a pretty good article on the topic..https://thecampingadvisor.com/is-my-...e-220v-or-110/


In my situation, i have 1,300 watts of solar (getting ready to double that), 800 amp batteries (will have 1,200 next summer) and one Victron 50A 3000W Multiplus inverter/charger (adding another next summer) In my current set up i can run the whole coach off this system with acceptation to AC with no shore power. I can run one AC at two hours at best maybe 3.. When i get done adding the upgrades i just spoke, i will no longer need to lug a generator to run the AC. The upgraded systems will run the Coach including one AC purely off solar.. Why am i doing this?? Because here in Calif it gets hot and in two years our great state will be banning fuel burning generators. The solar investment i'm making in my RV is being written off by my tax guru so at the end of the day, its probably costing me less than half of my investment..

[FordRanger89]

Originally Posted by kirkelli

You can run a 30 amp inverter to power your coach by making the pigtail to split the voltage as you said.. And this does work but its just a pain.. you can do this without a transfer switch by running your inverter straight into the modified pigtail on the 50 Amp service.. HOWEVER....... Make sure to turn your breaker off for your onboard charger,, else you will waste a lot of energy..

So I think what I have decided to do is get rid of the passthrough cable that feeds the one 15 amp "inverter" breaker.

Then run cable from the inverter to a 50amp transfer switch. Use a pigtail in the transfer switch so I have power running to both sides of the breaker box, thus the whole trailer. I think I am going to go ahead and run 6/4 or 6/3 + 8/1 cable now so in the future, if I ever upgrade the inverter, I don't have to redo anything other than utilize the red wire (and upgrade the DC side like batteries and cables).

After getting more information from you guys, I think using the passthrough feature to run the whole trailer is a bad idea. There could be times where I will require more than 30amps and that is the passthrough limit of the inverter.

Does all that sound reasonable?

[kirkelli]

Originally Posted by FordRanger89

So I think what I have decided to do is get rid of the passthrough cable that feeds the one 15 amp "inverter" breaker.

Then run cable from the inverter to a 50amp transfer switch. Use a pigtail in

Does all that sound reasonable?

Yup,, thats the way i originally started.. This Thread explains what i did at teh time two years ago.. It worked pretty good but didnt cut the mustard when we started dry camping.. I no longer pay for an RV site... I camp on BLM land whenever possible.

https://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f...sts-92864.html