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Old 06-01-2016, 01:50 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Rustysocket View Post
My observation is that a high percentage of RV buyers at this build level tend to be shortsighted cheapskates, and will drive an extra 10 hours out of their way to avoid spending that extra thousand dollars with their local dealer.
I drove 300 miles to buy mine simply because my local dealer is an ahole and wouldn't work with me at all the people at Colerain in Cincinnati treaded me like I was part of the family
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Old 06-01-2016, 02:10 PM   #22
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+1 to Wags on his post.

And I'll add this: I'm a small business owner who has had to stand up and face the music for some pretty serious mistakes or errors or oversights or whatever you want to call it. I can say without a doubt that I have learned 2 things: 1) I will do better next time and 2) I'm a lot slower about hammering someone else for their own mistakes. Now granted, I do expect people to own their mistakes (all too uncommon these days), but I do not expect perfection because it doesn't exist. The fact is that we're all humans, and humans are prone to make errors. It's how we handle them after the fact that makes the difference. In my experience, Jayco and my dealer have stepped up to the plate every time. And thankfully, they haven't had to do it often.

If you get up in someone's face and start hollering about how much they don't care, and their quality is garbage, and this and that and the other, I can promise you one thing; they won't care. If you treat that person in a calm, professional and polite manner and give them the opportunity to solve the issue, 9/10, they're going to fix your problem if they can.
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Old 06-01-2016, 03:00 PM   #23
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The only thing I see wrong with Wags point is his analogy to the automotive industry. The number of initial defects in automobiles has actually decreased significantly in the past 40 years (trying to find the cite for this, but read it in a LTS/TQM text probably) attributed primarily to the amount of automation added to the assembly line, and to Kaizen initiatives at the manufacturers driven by offshore competition. And yet, automobile purchases actually take less of our disposable income than they did back in the 70's, and are much more feature rich (i.e. complicated) than they used to be. My mom's 70's era Pinto econoboxes rusted away every 4 years, my wife's 00's era Versa econobox hasn't got a spot of rust or had a major repair in 12 years.
I agree that RV quality is slipping in the quest to remain competitive, but it doesn't have to be this way. Maybe when we start getting the Australian Conqueror trailers or similar products in North America, a quest for best quality will begin instead. Jayco could learn the lessons from the automotive sector that fixing it after assembly is generally much more expensive than building it correctly the first time.
Also, the supply chain needs major rework. When new trailers arrive with 3-year old tires mounted, it only proves that there are serious problems with supply chain management. I don't think we should be apologists for the manufacturers, I think we should be pushing for them to take a hard look at their business models and realize that, based on the automotive industry experience, they CAN have their cake and eat it too (deliver a quality product while maintaining profit margins).
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Old 06-01-2016, 03:47 PM   #24
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As a business owner I have to agree with camper_bob. When my customers approach me with a problem and we both are calm and realize that the problem has be resolved it goes much smoother and the mutual co-operation make the issue to be dealt with go easier. My previous m/h was a different make and dealer and trying to get repairs or warranty was like trying to pull teeth from a chicken nearly impossible and frustrating ( A sell you a unit then ignore you type of rv dealer) The dealer I bought my Jayco from (All they sell and carry is the Jayco line) has been amazing and when I have called Jayco the response has been stellar and quick. But when talking to both it is calm and quiet with a mutual respect and all issues have been dealt with quickly and in a timely manner. But again there is not a product or item that may have issues and in most cases the people you bought it from want to make it right for you
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Old 06-01-2016, 04:04 PM   #25
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Does it cost more to install electrical receptacle , door, cabinet straight and level ?
Does it cost more to tight fitting and or piping properly or improperly ?

Does it cost more to install furnace ducting properly or not properly ?

Would it cost more to sweep under the coach, the furnace etc etc, would it be hard to pick up the tye-wraps, electric wire insulation ?

Why they keep using defective components for years I.E Tank level sensor, would it cost a lot more to mass produce a different sensor ? Its not like they have just received a bad batch !!!

We often hear dont sweat the small stuff, but actually the small stuff is the one making me sweat, I'd rather have the TT roof flying off the trailer than chasing water leaks after water leaks , or having to deal with soft floor or what else :-)

The PDI should not turn as a super investigation , I should not have to climb on the roof, or to lean under the trailer just to make sure that the 30 thousands dollars was well spent on a quality product. We are lucky that Jayco stand by their product however we should not have imho to become close friend with the service manager to be fully happy with our purchase

No one ask for a revolution in the industry.....
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Old 06-01-2016, 04:33 PM   #26
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Does it cost more to install electrical receptacle , door, cabinet straight and level ?
Does it cost more to tight fitting and or piping properly or improperly ?

Does it cost more to install furnace ducting properly or not properly ?

Would it cost more to sweep under the coach, the furnace etc etc, would it be hard to pick up the tye-wraps, electric wire insulation ?

Why they keep using defective components for years I.E Tank level sensor, would it cost a lot more to mass produce a different sensor ? Its not like they have just received a bad batch !!!

We often hear dont sweat the small stuff, but actually the small stuff is the one making me sweat, I'd rather have the TT roof flying off the trailer than chasing water leaks after water leaks , or having to deal with soft floor or what else :-)

The PDI should not turn as a super investigation , I should not have to climb on the roof, or to lean under the trailer just to make sure that the 30 thousands dollars was well spent on a quality product. We are lucky that Jayco stand by their product however we should not have imho to become close friend with the service manager to be fully happy with our purchase

No one ask for a revolution in the industry.....
You make an excellent point. But yes, all those seemingly small items DO cost more. Some of those costs can be tiny and seemingly insignificant from a single unit perspective, but add up as more units are produced. An extra few minutes on each unit can add up to a lot of time over thousands of units.

So, what to do? The factory is willing to allow a certain level of error to go through to keep production levels and profit margins high. The individual worker doesn't have time to "sweat the small stuff". If a screw goes in sideways, he doesn't have time to sit there and remove the screw and reset it, he just loads up another one and moves on. Same with cleaning all the shavings and wire clippings. There simply isn't time, and manufacturers are willing to forego those "small" items to get the unit produced faster.

They have to figure that that some costs of fixes after the unit is shipped (warranty work) are acceptable to keep targeted production levels. When a warranty expense becomes more than it would cost to slow down or re-work the production line, you can bet they're going make a change at the source. But as long as it's cheaper to do the warranty work after the fact, (or in many cases gamble on the customer doing the fix), they're not going to slow it down or make a change. And when you're talking about thousands of units, what is that "acceptable" failure rate? Keep in mind here that Jayco Jayflight is the best selling travel trailer in the US for a few years now, and they beat their own record production levels each year.

Do I agree with this? Personally, no, I don't agree with it. I would rather take an extra minute or two to tidy up my area and make sure everything is laid in perfectly, but I have much more time than the factory worker. He/she has a certain level of expected productivity and a certain error level is anticipated.

All that said, eventually the quality will fall to a point where people stop buying, and warranty claims begin rising, and dealers begin squawking about warranty work they're not getting paid enough for. This will force the manufacturer to make a change or give up market share. Unfortunately, I think many manufacturers are short-sighted here and will keep going until it's too late and their brand has been eroded so badly that there's no coming back...
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Old 06-01-2016, 04:57 PM   #27
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Camper Bob :-) I agree with what you are saying here, thats true for all kind of production .

However Jayco and others are not helping their case, we have read here many times that the workers are encouraged to work fast to go home early with full pay.....

So they run run and run, going home is more important than screwing the molding properly, or even worse to replace the moulding they have splitted in 2 with their screw gun.

They must find an happy medium, its not true and its never true that you can make in 4 hrs what needs 8 hrs to do.

You can look at it 2 ways, either your workload evaluation for a period of 8hrs is all wrong if the employees can run away from the worksite after 4 hrs, or you use this system for not paying them well to get your production

But hey dont take me wrong I love my Jayco..... :-) I just want to love my next one even more lol
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Old 06-01-2016, 05:01 PM   #28
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The only thing I see wrong with Wags point is his analogy to the automotive industry. The number of initial defects in automobiles has actually decreased significantly in the past 40 years (trying to find the cite for this, but read it in a LTS/TQM text probably) attributed primarily to the amount of automation added to the assembly line, and to Kaizen initiatives at the manufacturers driven by offshore competition. And yet, automobile purchases actually take less of our disposable income than they did back in the 70's, and are much more feature rich (i.e. complicated) than they used to be. My mom's 70's era Pinto econoboxes rusted away every 4 years, my wife's 00's era Versa econobox hasn't got a spot of rust or had a major repair in 12 years.
I agree that RV quality is slipping in the quest to remain competitive, but it doesn't have to be this way. Maybe when we start getting the Australian Conqueror trailers or similar products in North America, a quest for best quality will begin instead. Jayco could learn the lessons from the automotive sector that fixing it after assembly is generally much more expensive than building it correctly the first time.
Also, the supply chain needs major rework. When new trailers arrive with 3-year old tires mounted, it only proves that there are serious problems with supply chain management. I don't think we should be apologists for the manufacturers, I think we should be pushing for them to take a hard look at their business models and realize that, based on the automotive industry experience, they CAN have their cake and eat it too (deliver a quality product while maintaining profit margins).
I guess we agree to disagree. I don't see quality going down at all. The RV industry is shipping many more units than they did in the past, and we still see few problems. I picked up my unit in Middlebury, it was made on a Friday. I did my PDI, took about an hour, and then lived in it for the next 5 months. I had no issues of any substance. I had a screw loose here or there that was about it.
I have not seen RV's coming with 3 year old tires, or with defective parts at all. Does it happen? Maybe, but it's not the norm. And, if you did get an RV with 3 year old tires, I would look more at your dealer than the Mfg. If you saw the Jayco campus, which is made up of multiple factories.. you would understand. They actually have very little "stock" of parts on hand, maybe a weeks supply. They produce hundreds of units a week, I dare say they don't have a screw that is three years old, let alone tires. I think the RV industry, which I have NOTHING to do with, other than as a customer, does a great job. They put out a quality product, and, if a problem arises, at least at Jayco, they stand behind their product and make it right. no one can ask for more than that.

Maybe the RV industry will get to the point they can use robots, as the auto industry has done. Perhaps then every screw will be installed perfectly and every nail is exactly in the correct spot. But you will sacrifice your choices if you want robotic consistency.

The handful of issues we see on here, for the most part are taken care of by the dealer and Jayco... I can ask for nothing more from a manufacturer except to stand behind their product.

We all have choices and, if Jayco was so horrible (or any other mfg) the marketplace would quickly put them out of business. Many times we see the problems are as much a result of lack of knowledge of the owner, as poor quality by the mfg.

We now have had our unit over a year, it has never been in for any warranty issue, or any other issue to be honest. Everything works great, we have had zero issues. And again we will use it for 4 - 5 months every day.

I've two recalls on my new car I purchased two weeks before our RV. I have had none on my Rv. just saying...
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Old 06-03-2016, 06:59 AM   #29
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I am new to Jayco and have so far been nothing but impressed. When we did our PDI there were one or two little things that the dealer was able to fix in about 5 minutes. We are completely pleased with the product and the quality of the unit in general. Our last camper was a TT that was 1/2 the length and 1/3 of the weight. With a much more advanced and larger unit there are bound to be more things that can go wrong, but so far we are beyond impressed with Jayco's product. Given the experience that I have had so far with the dealer, and with the manufacturer, I can easily see me being Jayco loyal for a lifetime. I thoroughly enjoy this Forum and I have learned so much from such a varied group of experts and amateurs alike. I enjoy the fact that I can voice a problem or concern and in short time I find an answer to my problem. Keep up the good work my fellow campers!!
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Old 06-03-2016, 05:07 PM   #30
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Half of the cabinet doors in our new 321 are poorly finished. The edges are roughly sanded if at all and if you just wipe a paper towel along the edge ya come up with paper stuck to the wood. Dealer blew me off and said I couldn't expect any more quality for the price. I'll bring it up again when I go back for some warranty issues later this month. Couldn't believe his answer. I've never had RV or home cabinet doors finished so poorly. I snagged a good dri-fit t shirt on one of the closet doors.
If the dealer doesn't order new doors I'll call Jayco directly.
Otherwise we really like the 5er so far.
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