Extend a Stay kit issue, on a Seneca

[Greenbass]

All,

I recently installed a CAMCO external propane T on my '15 Seneca TS. Here's the issue, when I'm using the aux propane tank, my tankless water heater does not heat the water as warm as when I just use my factory installed propane tank. Has anyone else had this issue? PLEASE NOTE: This is not another question about the tankless water heater. Mine works fine normally. Thanks.

[oldmanAZ]

Welcome to the forum.

Could it be a restriction in the gas plumbing for the new tank? I don't know your tank sizes etc., but would it be possible to switch the tank locations (or the plumbing) to see if the issue is with the new tank?

[Greenbass]

Thanks for the reply.
All of my other propane functions (heat, stove) are working. The pluming would include only the external tank's valve since the RV LP runs through the same regulator. Perhaps I'll borrow a neighbor's bottle just to eliminate that possibility.

[memphis02]

How big is your aux tank?

[Robbbyr]

I wonder if it has to do with the fact that the Girard uses quite a bit of propane while operating, perhaps more gas than can be delivered through the external connection? Since you indicate it seems okay when using the onboard tank, I strongly suspect that may be the case.

Have you tried more than one external tank? If different tanks have the same result perhaps the tee itself or the external tank hose might be creating a restriction. Maybe Camco can tell you what the BTU rating of the tee assembly should be. Or perhaps other customers have experienced it and they (Camco) has a solution. Worth a shot anyway.

I have an Extend-a-Stay on my Seneca too, but I replaced my Girard with a tank-style heater that doesn't have nearly the BTU input rating as an instantaneous water heater. I have intentionally tested mine with the furnace, stove, and water heater all firing and have not had any problems. But again, I don't have the same flow requirement because of my water heater.

[rgolding]

I have the extended stay tank hose. I hook up, open valve on 20 lb. tank and then shut off, built in tank. Have Girard heater and have noticed no excessive use of propane.

Any possibility you are restricting flow by teflon tape over a joint or something?

Do you know you are suppose to use yellow teflon tape? Just trivia, but not related to the issue.

[pconroy]

Originally Posted by rgolding

Have Girard heater and have noticed no excessive use of propane.

Just chiming in, me neither.
All summer long, plenty of hot showers and the Girard didn't use much.

Two days of winter camping, temps in the 20's - and the furnace used as much those two days as the stove and Girard did the whole summer season.

Something has to be restricting the flow, perhaps???

[Robbbyr]

I was not trying to say the Girard causes one to consume more propane in the long run, I believe it can save gas since you are not burning it to heat water in storage. But when it is running it can have the same consumption as the furnace, if not even more. The latest version of the Girard has a max input of 42,000 BTU per hour.

If the OP has a restriction in his tee, reduced WH output may be how it manifests itself. In my Seneca the water heater is the most remote appliance in the propane system. At least in my rig if there was a delivery problem, it would likely show up there.

[BrentJ]

This is s but off topic but parallels Robbbyr original thought about difference between house tank and satellite tank. I'm a home brewer and had a propane brew rig. I struggled mightily getting the high output propane burners to work two at a time on my system. After much trouble shooting the problem was determined to be propane tank wouldn't support the mode of operation as the liquid propane has to boil off the surface of the tank to make gaseous propane. By switching from horizontal coach tank to smaller vertical satellite tank you've greatly reduced the surface area to support boiling off the required propane gas. I'm agreeing with Robbbyr that the on demand hot water heater is likely requiring more BTUs than the satellite tank surface area can support. As an aside this is not a volume issue so getting a larger propane cylinder with same diameter will not solve the problem. Manifolding two tanks together might though. I went that route on my brew rig and although a pain it did help the problem somewhat.


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[memphis02]

Originally Posted by BrentJ

This is s but off topic but parallels Robbbyr original thought about difference between house tank and satellite tank. I'm a home brewer and had a propane brew rig. I struggled mightily getting the high output propane burners to work two at a time on my system. After much trouble shooting the problem was determined to be propane tank wouldn't support the mode of operation as the liquid propane has to boil off the surface of the tank to make gaseous propane. By switching from horizontal coach tank to smaller vertical satellite tank you've greatly reduced the surface area to support boiling off the required propane gas. I'm agreeing with Robbbyr that the on demand hot water heater is likely requiring more BTUs than the satellite tank surface area can support. As an aside this is not a volume issue so getting a larger propane cylinder with same diameter will not solve the problem. Manifolding two tanks together might though. I went that route on my brew rig and although a pain it did help the problem somewhat.


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-Glad to see another home brewer on here!!! I, too, found my issue to be tank size with my two 200k btu brew burners running on a 20lb tank. Once I went to a 30lb my problem at wide open throttle on both burners was lessened. Definitely seems like it 'could' be an issue.

[rgolding]

Just to re emphasize the size of our auxiliary tank and its use. We sit on a 20 lb. tank all winter and the only time the Seneca main tank is used is when auxiliary runs out, we are on the road or have to take the auxiliary tank to be refilled. Since November, we are still on our first 20lb. tank in middle Florida. Mild winter.

[Greenbass]

Originally Posted by memphis02

How big is your aux tank?

30lb


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[Greenbass]

Originally Posted by Robbbyr

I wonder if it has to do with the fact that the Girard uses quite a bit of propane while operating, perhaps more gas than can be delivered through the external connection? Since you indicate it seems okay when using the onboard tank, I strongly suspect that may be the case.



Have you tried more than one external tank? If different tanks have the same result perhaps the tee itself or the external tank hose might be creating a restriction. Maybe Camco can tell you what the BTU rating of the tee assembly should be. Or perhaps other customers have experienced it and they (Camco) has a solution. Worth a shot anyway.



I have an Extend-a-Stay on my Seneca too, but I replaced my Girard with a tank-style heater that doesn't have nearly the BTU input rating as an instantaneous water heater. I have intentionally tested mine with the furnace, stove, and water heater all firing and have not had any problems. But again, I don't have the same flow requirement because of my water heater.

Thanks for the reply. I hadn't noticed the amount of LP that the Girard uses. It seems pretty efficient to me. I intend to try a neighbors tank to see if there's a difference.


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[Greenbass]

Actually, for this install, CAMCO emphasizes NO Teflon tape. I didn't use any. It's brass in brass. I checked with a soapy water solution. No leaks.

[Greenbass]

We use very little propane normally in So Virginia. We had a couple of cold snaps where we had to use a bunch to power the furnace. That's the reason for the aux. I imagine during normal operations, my two tanks will last a long time.

[Greenbass]

Back to your previous post. I've seen several people who have replaced their water heater. Did you do that or have it done at a service center? And, what brand, size did you get?

[Robbbyr]

Originally Posted by Greenbass

Back to your previous post. I've seen several people who have replaced their water heater. Did you do that or have it done at a service center? And, what brand, size did you get?

I did the work myself and installed a gas/electric DSI 10-gallon Atwood XT. The XT technology makes it seem like a bigger tank yet. (http://www.askforatwood.com/images/waterheaterxt.pdf) I can say it has never run out in our use. Plus we can slow the water flow to a trickle and use a low-flow shower head without being scalded or frozen since we camp without water and sewer hookups regularly. Girard readily admitted that their tankless heater works best at constant, high water flows. That means full-hookups. Not what I needed to take my Navy showers when needed.

An added benefit is that when plugged into campground power I don't need to burn my propane to heat water. I ran a new 120-volt dedicated circuit to the Atwood and so electricity heats my water most of the time. We are very happy with how the job turned out. I would not go back, even to the newest Girard model.

Here is a link to a prior post where I better described the swap along with a couple pictures:

http://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f3...7ts-31841.html

The new Atwood exterior door has since been painted to match and the job looks like it came that way from Jayco. Inside the bathroom the new Atwood controls fit where the original Girard dial was.

[BullDozerBob]

The only way to know for sure what is going on inside the propane system is to attach a manometer or pressure in inches gauge and see what the drop is when the water heater is on. Might have to add pressure ports or look for existing ports but with out knowing what the pressure is doing it's just a guessing game.
Below 10 inches water column causes problems as most appliances run at 10.5-11.0 inches.

BullDozerBob

[Sam]

I have used a supplemental 20 LB tank for two winters in situations where I did not want to move my Seneca to a Propane station. I had my local propane dealer in CO install a tee and also make up a line to connect to my tank. This has worked with no problems, including the use of my Girard tankless water heater. This was not a Camco setup. Hope this helps.

P. S. I shut off my primary tank when I use the 20 LB tank. Have to periodically check the 20 LB tank so it does not run dry during the night.

Sam