New Seneca is home !

[submariner]

Hi everyone.We took delivery on our new 2018.5 TS s2rv sundial painted Seneca last monday.Drove it down the thruway from Albany NY to Pleasant Valley at around 65 mph.Very powerfull,don't think it ever downshifted out of 6th gear until we reached secondary roads,and it performed very well.
Our walk through was going well until we found the entrance steps were not working properly.Two hours later after we came back from lunch while 2 techs worked on the problem,which they finally found thank God. Broken/cut wire in the harness.So we lost out on a lot of information on certain things ,it was getting late,the slides were in when we came back and she was unplugged from shore power.We took the hint that the pdi was over so off we went.
Since the weather has been crazy cold around here we never tried the water system yet,maybee by the end of the week when the weather breaks ,finally.
The coach has an high pitched noise at speed ,kind of like what crumgator described on there post.Went to freightliner to discuss the noise and asked about the TSB-355625 fix. that Columbo had mentioned.
Was told it was not a freightliner number,did not know what it was.
I have to bring it in and let them road test it and take it from there.
We shall see.It runs like a champ.Will try the mirror hole plugs looks like 5/8" button plugs will work.
Cant believe all the outside storage !
Going to upgrade the base truma water heater,and add hard wired surge protection and a bunch of other stuff !
Cant wait to go camping!

[memphis02]

Congrats on your new unit!! My wallet said to tell your wallet, sorry for its loss!!! There's always a new bell or whistle that I cant wait to see show up!

[Robbbyr]

I don't think that listed TSB will be applicable to a new unit with the Allison 3000 transmission. On our older Senecas with the 2500 transmission there was a physical shift cable, and our chirping cab noise was a harmonic transmitted into the cab. The fix was to better isolate the cable and it worked wonderfully. But your 3000 transmission is shifted electronically via the touchpad. So no physical cable like the older units.

I wonder if there is a chance you have the typical wind whistle generated by the mirror bracket holes? Even though it is an S2RV chassis the mirror brackets seem identical. What conditions/speeds does it occur?

Let us know!

[submariner]

Robby' the noise seems to happen when we reach around 4o-45 mph.I didnt think the fix that the older senecas had used would apply to my unit.I went outside and looked at the mirrors and measured the mounting holes,looks like 4 mounting holes for each mirror and one on the bottoms of the mirrors themselves.Found black plastic 5/8" button plugs on ebay that i think will work real nice with maybe a dab of silicone to keep them in place.
If this does'nt fix the noise I'll take it to freight liner and have them check it out.Maybee its the nature of the beast with the diesel drivetrain ????
I'll keep the forum informed as I progress.There are also a couple of other new owners that are having similiar "issues".Should be able to get to the bottom of this.
I noticed when outfitting the rig with our stuff,the cab area could definately use some extra storage ,the console that is custom made looks like a must have,among'st a bunch of other must haves.
The truma upgrade is expensive and uses on board propane only.Personally,Ithink for a rig this size,a larger propane tank should be in these units,theres plenty of room. I am considering going to a gas- electric 10 gallon jobber like the new 19's have.Seems crazy to go to a campground and not be able to use the electric that I am paying for!

[Rustynuts]

Driving ours home we also had the whistling around 45mph and up. We only drove about an hour before we stopped for the night. I came prepared as I had read about this problem. Then next morning I cut and applied patches out of gorilla tape and put over the holes and it was night and day...then noise was gone. I found a thread about this and ordered 9/16" and 3/4" plugs for mind and they fit perfect. There is still some wind noise at higher speeds but this is just part of a class C. I a going to see if I can adjust the doors a little tighter at the top front corners as they seem to stick out a little.

We noticed the same thing in the cab and I ordered a console from build5fab, very nice unit and love it.

We had our first week of boondocking in the desert and absolutely HATE the truma. One night it was suppose to get down to 25° so I checked the manual to see if anything was needed. The manual says that if the ambient temp will be below 39° to winterize the system! Running on the water pump the shower got warm enough for me but the wife was NOT happy as she likes a hot shower and the kitchen sink on full hot only got luke warm after running for 2-3 minutes.....wife had to heat water in microwave to get hot enough water to do dishes! I have a email into Jayco about this now....

Other than the Truma, we are loving ours!

[Robbbyr]

My Seneca started out with the Girard tankless water heater, and despite numerous visit to the dealer (who was very familiar with them) mine never would produce hot water consistently. Now that was the "first generation" Girard, later Girards with a digital display were reportedly better. Then Jayco went with the Truma, which by most accounts was better yet. Early on I took it upon myself to switch from the Girard to a 10-gallon Atwood XT water heater, the XT denoting that the water in the heater is heated to a higher temperature and then "mixed" with cold by a thermostatic valve on the back of the unit. The result is more than 10 gallons of usable hot water. And unlike the very finicky Girard, I can trickle the flow at any faucet and it is still hot since it is coming from a tank. Too low of a flow in a tankless and it shuts off the burner to prevent overheating the water. And my water heats to the same internal temperature regardless of incoming water temperature. The tankless units are limited in how much they can raise the water temperature when the flow is higher but the incoming water temperature is low. And at least the early Girards also had problems with high inlet water temps when folks were camping in very hot climates. And I can also heat water with campground electricity and mostly do, only firing up the gas when I anticipate high demand. I even run it on electric going down the road in summer as we frequently have the generator on to run the air conditioning. Hot water awaits us as soon as we pull in then. I will also run it on gas as we travel should we not have the generator running.

Another thing I did was to add a hot water recirculation system to my unit. I hit a switch near my sink, a 30-second timer is triggered and hot water is flowed through the lines and back to my freshwater tank. Then when you activate a tap, the hot water is there in a second or two (not exaggerating) so we don't waste water down the drain waiting for it to get hot. Not a big deal on full hookups, but every drop is precious when we are dry camping. I'm not sure such a recirculation system would work well on a tankless heater unless you timed the start of your water usage precisely otherwise you still might get a "cold slug" if the flow stopped. And we take "Navy" showers even on full hookups out of habit (even at stick home) and the tankless heaters don't like little or no water flow at all. No problem at all with a tank water heater. And for sub-freezing weather I can trickle hot water and keep the lines thawed. Of course my tank is protected since it is full and kept heated as necessary. The Girard came with a cold weather protection for the heater itself, I hear the basic Truma does not. But neither would likely fire the burner as just a tiny trickle to keep the lines thawed.

Different campers have differing lifestyles and the tankless may be perfect for some of them. But it wasn't for us. After my work I am very pleased with how it works, but more importantly the dear wife is happy!

For 2019 Jayco is reportedly coming full circle and putting a tank unit in. Too bad they didn't really leap forward to an AquaHot or similar system. Quiet interior heat that could have compact convectors placed where needed, multiple heating zone capable, unlimited hot water but with an interior tank, run on electricity when desired (properly optioned) or diesel other times. You would lose an exterior compartment, but I could live with that!

Yes, I can get very long-winded. But I wanted you to know are solutions for those who want "better".

[Mark S]

Congrats on the new Seneca. I am sure it will give you many miles of smiles. Robby and the gang here are great resources that really made the new ownership experience soooo much better.

We have the Truma water heater and I was ready for all the problems. I have to say we like it. I was first concerned about not being able to use electric but I didn’t notice using much more gas.

In the shower, by the time I count to 24 the water is hot, like really hot where I need to add cold water. Most importantly, DW likes that she can take seemingly endless hot showers when we are hooked up. She likes never running out of hot water as we did when we had tank units.

A week from Monday I am going to the Truma service center in Lakeland Florida to get the upgrade. I am upgrading mostly so that I can de-scale the unit without going to dealer as well as the other bennefits. I will let you know how it goes.

[SloPoke]

Welcome to the new world of Seneca's and the never ending water heater discussions between us... along with all of the other nuances that we have conquered.

Since we have a 2015, we have the second generation Girard. If you ask us if we like it, that answer is frequently changing - mostly depending on where we are and how we are camping. We hated it at first, but after we learned how to use it - we hate it a lot less compared to some of our previous water heaters. As Robby mentioned, we also put in a re-circulation valve that lets the hot water run through the pipes and then back to the Fresh Water Tank. That alone has eliminated the wasted water waiting for Hot water to reach the faucet. We get piping hot water at the forward Kitchen Sink in about 25-seconds. There are a few forum threads about that project at JOF.

On the positive side... I really like having unlimited Hot Water, especially when in a campground with water hookups. I don't have to wait 15 minutes after the DW has used the shower any more as with the Tank Water heater we used to have, it also has freeze protection and the temperature is easily adjusted in seconds. On the negative side, there is a tendency for it to shut off when the water flow is too low, and it has tripped the over-temperature switch a couple of times, but Everything has a trade-off somewhere... there are advantages of both - you have to find what suits you the best.

[RVermont]

Before I upgraded the truma last year I installed shut off valves in the wet bay so I could isolate the two lines running to the unit. If I was running down the road in cold weather or was going to be somewhere and it was going to be below freezing I simply shut the valves. I then opened the low point drain and removed the quick drain on the truma. Takes one minute to winterize it now. I have a ts and the washer is mounted directly above the heater. The cold and lot lines for the was run in the bedroom cabinets. I am going to splice into these lines to supply the heater thus eliminating about 40’ of tubing. This should improve response time and will have the majority of the water lines inside heated space.

The truma upgrade to comfort installs a recirculation pump. There are then several possible settings. Eco mode which is a gas supplied freeze protection mode. The pump circulates when the temperature drops below about 40 and keeps the unit at around 40’. Then normal which keeps the unit at 100’-120 so the unit work more like a tanked system. Additionally there is an electric freeze protection mode but you have to buy an electric wand $200. This wand replaces the strainer and keeps the tank at 40’. While traveling down the road. You also have to install a plug in the exhaust vent while traveling to prevent the coil from freezing up. Truma is very specific not to run the gas while moving so the wand is the only authorized method.

Truma also has a comfort plus model that has a full rv recirculation system. But it is only available in OEM installs. The only change appears to be a added port to allow the pump to circulate through your coach. Truma will not allow a comfort to be changed to a plus but if they did it would solve many of the issues people have with the units with the exception of not having a hot electric function.

[submariner]

Thankyou everyone for your well wishes!
Question Paul,If I just stay with the basic truma,cant you just open the quick drain setup and drain the unit and travel in sub freezing temps?

[RVermont]

That is correct to winterize you just turn the unit off, open the low point drain to reduce the pressure and the pull the screen filter. The unit will then be all set. That is why I installed the valves to shut off the supply to the unit. I put a heater in the water bay and keep that area warm. I added a gfi outlet for the heater.

The one thing that the comfort unit provides is quicker response for heating as the unit is already at 110’f

You just have to decide how you are going to be using the unit.

[McGintys924]

Exactly what RVermont said. Upgrade to comfort works well, but that idea of rerouting the lines is genius!!

I do know that when on comfort it will generate enough heat to keep water lines from freezing down to 4 degrees (other mods have been made for wheel well lines and space heaters in tank and wet bay); that notion of a “heated and enclosed water lines” only works to a point as those areas are only about 5 degrees above ambient.

[Mark S]

I am following this discussion with interest as I all I know about “winterizing” is that is the time of year that we can open the windows here on select days. Now, “summerizing” is our big issue.

I am getting my Truma upgrade done next Monday, which I would never have known about if not for you guys.

And Ryan, I will let you know if they honor the deal. Thanks

[SloPoke]

Originally Posted by McGintys924

; that notion of a “heated and enclosed water lines” only works to a point as those areas are only about 5 degrees above ambient.

...can you elaborate here???

I'm not sure I follow how you are getting the water line 5 degrees above ambient.

[McGintys924]

Steve, sorry such a late reply.
I have been staying in my Seneca through the winter and will be doing so for the next two years it looks like. In the previous camper I purchased, despite a heated and enclosed underbelly, I had water lines freeze at around 20 degrees. So, when I had the Seneca I wanted to make sure this didn’t happen.

When RVermont and I began discussing the Truma, after the order was placed yet way before arrival, we had both been curious about which model they used. I called Jayco and when the rep explained that the basic was installed, I exclaimed that it would not have freeze protection (which the older Girard did). His response was “the Seneca is not a four season coach, we don’t intend for you to use it is freezing weather.” Aghast, as this was my main reason for purchase, I was determined to make it work; I just wondered if the Seneca version of enclosed heated water lines was any better than the previous TT.

I found remote temp monitors and put them in the wet bay, wheel well bay (don’t ask what my plan is when the little batteries die) and water tank bay. To my dismay, as the ambient temperatures plummeted, so did the temperature in the water line areas. This prompted an immediate winterization one cold night. From my readings, the temps in those areas with the furnace heat running full force was a mere five degrees higher than the outside temperatures. At 17 degrees outside it was 22-23 in these areas.

The solution has been a heater in the wet bay and tank bay and heat tape and insulation on the wheel well lines, and this summer will be a fresh water tank heater pad and insulation and heat tape to those lines. However, with the current modifications, I am good to 4 degrees. Therefore, I am theorizing that the Truma running on comfort keeps those lines from freezing due to the heat it generates; I will be insulating those lines this summer also.

I just wanted everyone to know my findings of the temp monitoring so that no one believes Jaycos marketing and leaves water in the lines when it’s very cold out.
Let me know if that answers the questions; I am eternally indebted to you for my refrigerator!

[memphis02]

Outstanding data-collection! I'm sure that will help factor into a lot our our equations when making a decision to winterize or not! Many thanks!!!

[SloPoke]

Originally Posted by McGintys924

When RVermont and I began discussing the Truma, after the order was placed yet way before arrival, we had both been curious about which model they used. I called Jayco and when the rep explained that the basic was installed, I exclaimed that it would not have freeze protection (which the older Girard did). His response was “the Seneca is not a four season coach, we don’t intend for you to use it is freezing weather.” Aghast, as this was my main reason for purchase, I was determined to make it work; I just wondered if the Seneca version of enclosed heated water lines was any better than the previous TT.

I found remote temp monitors and put them in the wet bay, wheel well bay (don’t ask what my plan is when the little batteries die) and water tank bay. To my dismay, as the ambient temperatures plummeted, so did the temperature in the water line areas. This prompted an immediate winterization one cold night. From my readings, the temps in those areas with the furnace heat running full force was a mere five degrees higher than the outside temperatures. At 17 degrees outside it was 22-23 in these areas.

The solution has been a heater in the wet bay and tank bay and heat tape and insulation on the wheel well lines, and this summer will be a fresh water tank heater pad and insulation and heat tape to those lines. However, with the current modifications, I am good to 4 degrees. Therefore, I am theorizing that the Truma running on comfort keeps those lines from freezing due to the heat it generates; I will be insulating those lines this summer also.

I just wanted everyone to know my findings of the temp monitoring so that no one believes Jaycos marketing and leaves water in the lines when it’s very cold out.
Let me know if that answers the questions; I am eternally indebted to you for my refrigerator!

Ahhhh Now I have a better understanding.

First off... I agree that Jayco did not build a 4-seasons coach that allows us to leave our rigs like Mark S. does in winter. (until Mark S. happens to be here for the winter like we were there - but he IS Invited!) As Jayco has the plumbing, there are lines that run above the floor, and lines that are below the floor. If you consider that the above floor temperatures are going to always be in a living space that is somewhat heated... we really focused on the plumbing that is below the floor.

We put a 1500w electric heater in all three bays behind the rear axle that have plumbing lines, Grey or black valves and the wet bay. On our FK model, our grey tank is over the rear axle, but drains out into the Wet-Bay that has the Propane Tank on the passenger side - we don't have a heater in that compartment... There are a few large openings between these two compartments that allow for the heaters that are placed in the Black / Wet Bay compartments that easily prevent the valves from getting impacted by freezing.

In the next bay back - our fresh water tank has the same 1500w heater too... We have been able to heat that bay and keep the fresh water temperatures in the 60's even when the outside temps are below freezing (highs and lows) the Genny is on the far side of that compartment, so we are blowing hot air around the tank from the passenger side compartment.

The rear bay - is our last heater. Basically heating the pipe coming out of the back of the Girard and back into the Fresh Water Compartment. Ironically, this is our most vulnerable compartment to freezing temperatures, especially in windy and frigid conditions due to the lack of insulation on the rear of that compartment. We have had that pipe get real close to freezing, to the point where water was barely flowing to the water heater. That pipe is going to get the heat tape to replace the heater this year...

Long post... yea, but we like to take off and go with our Seneca - even in the middle of winter. If I had the space to build a heated garage for the Seneca - it would never be winterized for the rest of it's life.

[McGintys924]

The TS has the water lines that supply the ice maker (rerouted to have a shut off in the neighboring wet bay), bathroom sink, shower, and kitchen sink all in the wheel well bay. Despite a open heat vent to that area, I was still seeing temps minimally different from ambient; this prompted the heat tape and insulation as I could not see a method of heating this compartment further. Felt that if grey tank is empty, no need to worry about it.

I had heaters in the wet bay and water tank bay. The wet bay appears appropriate for the heater, but the water tank bay has other items and I worry about space heaters near things.

I will take your initiative as well and insulate those lines to and from the water heater this summer. I didn’t take into account that fact that that area has no neighboring bay for and insulation factor. Good point!