Can Thermal kit be retrofitted?

mike837go · 06-16-2015, 12:55 PM

Hi All,

I bought my 19RD off the lot not knowing 100% of the details.

This afternoon I was digging on Jayco's web site and discovered that the 'Thermal Kit' which will allow use of the trailer in sub-freezing temperatures is "only" about $500.00.

Does anyone know if the kit can be ordered? What the dealer might charge for installation? Can someone who is very handy DIY it?

I have always wanted to be able to not have to winterize before first frost. It would be nice to keep the TT usable well into November.

Thanks,
Mike

blderman · 06-16-2015, 01:27 PM

The thermal kit is nothing more than some foil lining at the underside of the floor and regular fiberglass insulation. That being said it would be a pretty large undertaking to install while working on a creeper. Also I have my doubts about how well Jayco's thermal package actually works. I was looking at my 2016 23MBH last night and there are TONS of voids in the insulation. And behind the black tank there isn't any insulation at all.

mike837go · 06-16-2015, 01:53 PM

Let's discuss the possibility of DIY'ing this from scratch....

Glue heating pads (have to decide on 12VDC or 110VAC) to the bottoms of the FW, GW and BW tanks. All wastewater lines get pipe heaters. Have to include the wastewater lines up to and including the dump valves.

Fill the entire bottom with rigid foam insulation and fill any voids with fiberglass.

Then cover the entire underside of the exposed frame with foil (my preference would be sheet metal)

THAT would keep the water under the trailer safe to well below freezing (depending on wind).

Keeping the interior well above freezing? Propane furnace backed up with portable electric heaters (or the other way around).

Tell me that doesn't sound doable.

My barn/shop has a concrete floor, so using a creeper is easy after sweeping.

I could improve access by dropping the hitch to give maximum access to the back and use the tongue jack + cribbing to get the bumper all the way down to give good access to the front.

A side benefit will be closing off every single possible point of entry for mice, ants, etc.

mike837go · 06-16-2015, 01:55 PM

Important!

Find the never-to-be-sufficiently-damned overflow tube and connect it to the vent next to the gravity fill.

Filthy-Beast · 06-16-2015, 02:02 PM

Don't know if it's important or even helps, they do have a heater vent routed to the belly in the official upgrade.

My biggest concern would be the water lines while towing for extended periods.

mike837go · 06-16-2015, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filthy-Beast

...snip...My biggest concern would be the water lines while towing for extended periods.

There's my 12V vs. 120V choice.

At this point I'm considering this only for extending the time the TT sits 'hot' and usable outside my barn/shop. In other words, "How far into Autumn can I push off winterizing and how early in the spring can I summerize?"

There is no place I currently plan on dragging it to while we are expecting below freezing temps. So, 120VAC heaters will fit my present plans.

However, if I add a high-current line off the tow vehicle's alternator and when parked use a separate converter. 12VDC heaters become interesting.

-----
"they do have a heater vent routed to the belly in the official upgrade"

OH! I just got it

They use the cabin heat to keep the space between the floor and the foil warmish.

Gotta think this through more. If heated air is being pushed down there, it has to be able to warm the tanks and then the cooled air has to go [to atmosphere or into the cabin]. Packing the frame with insulation totally ruins that.

blderman · 06-16-2015, 08:40 PM

For what it's worth my 1986 Fleetwood Taurus had an enclosed and heated but not insulated underbelly. I never once had freezing issues and camped into the teens many times. I think I got ripped off buying the thermal package. I could have done much better myself and for less money.

mike837go · 06-17-2015, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blderman

For what it's worth my 1986 Fleetwood Taurus had an enclosed and heated but not insulated underbelly. I never once had freezing issues and camped into the teens many times. I think I got ripped off buying the thermal package. I could have done much better myself and for less money.

It was worth a lot. Thanks.

I will be doing it myself. Just have to figure which way I want to go:
A) Super insulate the underbelly and use electric heaters to prevent freezing.
or
B) Put a layer of simple insulation under the frame and circulate cabin air to keep the air around the tanks warm.

Process A will protect the tanks clear through an Orange County, NY winter. Allowing me to never have to winterize, just spend money on electricity and propane to the whole thing warm.

Process B will give me those extra worry-free weeks to bring the TT up for the season early and winterize on my own schedule.

Skirting the trailer while immobile for the winter will help too.

Decisions, decisions...

Subaru297 · 06-17-2015, 11:42 AM

What about spray foam insulation? I have considered this to keep the trailer warmer during the shoulder season.

Heat trace or heat pads on everything and then cover it all up with spray foam. Only drawback that I see is the access issues if you need to get at something to fix it. Maybe cost too as I haven't looked into that yet.

Cheers

mike837go · 06-17-2015, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subaru297

What about spray foam insulation?
...snip..
access issues if you need to get at something to fix it.

Isn't that reason enough?

I like being able to fix my things when they break. Spray foam would have to be cut out and then replaced after any repair. The fact that it expands during installation has many benefits in filling gaps and voids. Then has to be cut (waste) to fit within the covered space.

Rigid foam boards slip in and out. But will never provide perfect edge-to-edge coverage.

The killer for me, right now is what fastening system will:
A) Be simple and straight forward to install
B) Keep the sheet metal on while heading down the road
C) Be easy to undo to access the underbelly
D) Not corrode to the point where removal breaks the fasteners.

blderman · 06-17-2015, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike837go

Isn't that reason enough?

I like being able to fix my things when they break. Spray foam would have to be cut out and then replaced after any repair. The fact that it expands during installation has many benefits in filling gaps and voids. Then has to be cut (waste) to fit within the covered space.

Rigid foam boards slip in and out. But will never provide perfect edge-to-edge coverage.

The killer for me, right now is what fastening system will:
A) Be simple and straight forward to install
B) Keep the sheet metal on while heading down the road
C) Be easy to undo to access the underbelly
D) Not corrode to the point where removal breaks the fasteners.

I would use the same corrugated plastic as the factory does for the underbelly. It's light, easy to attached and easy to repair. It just looks very cheap and unprofessional, imo.

mike837go · 06-17-2015, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blderman

I would use the same corrugated plastic as the factory does for the underbelly. It's light, easy to attached and easy to repair. It just looks very cheap and unprofessional, imo.

What corrugated plastic?

My 19RD has black cloth. Seems like a close cousin to weed control landscape fabric.

----------

Wouldn't 20 gauge steel or aluminum be much better than plastic or cloth?

Camper_bob · 06-17-2015, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike837go

What corrugated plastic?

My 19RD has black cloth. Seems like a close cousin to weed control landscape fabric.

----------

Wouldn't 20 gauge steel or aluminum be much better than plastic or cloth?

It's called "coroplast" (sp?) and is used frequently to make signs. Think political advertisements or those little signs that roofers leave in their customers' yards. My BIL used to make signs and graphics for a living and has that stuff all over the place. It's pretty useful for many things...

rick danger · 06-17-2015, 02:11 PM

When I built my house I used polyisocyanurate ridgid foam board and filled in the ga

ps with spray foam in 16oz. cans. I've cut it out in places and foamed it back in with out much trouble. I think it would be a much tighter mouseprooff(er) way to go. ....or just use the boards to make a skirt and put an electric heater in there.

mike837go · 06-17-2015, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camper_bob

It's called "coroplast" (sp?) and is used frequently to make signs. Think political advertisements or those little signs that roofers leave in their customers' yards. My BIL used to make signs and graphics for a living and has that stuff all over the place. It's pretty useful for many things...

Google says, you got the spelling right, but it's with a capital c as that is a brand name product.

I do recognize the stuff. But I wouldn't put it into a horizontal application where water could lay in the channels.

mike837go · 06-17-2015, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick danger

When I built my house I used polyisocyanurate ridgid foam board and filled in the gaps with spray foam in 16oz. cans. I've cut it out in places and foamed it back in with out much trouble. I think it would be a much tighter mouseprooff(er) way to go. ....or just use the boards to make a skirt and put an electric heater in there.

I'm too concerned with all the wiring and pipes under the belly.

When I have to start cutting the spray foam, I don't want to have to fix the tank level sensor leads.

That's why I want to try and built it:
- as near as possible, snug fitted rigid foam panels; kinda like the way ceiling tiles install.
- an easily unbolted layer of (stainless, aluminum or painted steel) to cover, protect and keep the foam panels in place.
- Separate electrical heat is being replaced by circulating cabin air (60-70F) through the insulated area nearest the tanks.

Making sure the dump valves are inside the heated space will be important.

spoon059 · 06-17-2015, 03:20 PM

mke837go, what exactly are you attempting to accomplish? A lot of the stuff mentioned is great, but potentially overkill.

If you just want to extend your camping season a little longer in upstate New York, then you might be able to get away with heating pads for your holding and fresh water tanks. That will prevent them from freezing. I believe all of our water lines are above the floor, therefore in conditioned space. A couple of space heaters (free electricity at campground) will keep the inside comfortable and the tank heaters will keep you from freezing the tanks.

The floor will be colder that a trailer with the thermal package, but electric space heaters and some throw rugs will make it comfy enough.

In terms of wrapping your waste pipe elbows and stuff, that isn't really necessary. If your tanks have heaters, that will keep them from freezing. You should be keeping the tanks closed unless you are dumping anyways. If its cold enough for your waste fluids to freeze between the tank and the sewer connection... its too cold to camp!!!

Foam panels, spray foam, etc are pretty much overkill unless you are consistently camping in weather well below freezing.

mike837go · 06-18-2015, 06:32 AM

Overkill?

Yup! I can consider overkill as one possibility in a spectrum of courses of action.

Once it comes time to spend money and time, the reasonable course of action will have been chosen.

The overkill version will allow the trailer to stay unfrozen through even the most harshest winter we get where I live.

And yes, that is not what I want. I can just see myself trudging through 3 feet of snow to change out a 30lb propane bottle in late February.

A single insulating layer (to keep the frosty winds out) under the frame of the trailer and circulating heated cabin air under there will keep the tanks and drain lines from freezing well into November. And will allow me to de-winterize in early-to-mid April.

That is the reasonable choice. Now to figure what I want to use as "A single insulating layer". And where to cut holes in the floor to circulate "heated cabin air".

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