CAT Scale info -- help needed

[Rustic Eagle]

Doug,

Like yourself, I added two heavy 6V Deep Cycle batteries to my 24RBS Jay Flight which also has a 7,500lb GVWR. I do a fair amount of boondocking.

My typical loading habits are on the heavy side, and with the pair of 6V's my loaded tongue weight is a couple pounds shy of 1,100lbs. I still use my 15 year old Reese Dual Cam WDH rated at 1,500lbs Tongue Weight that I used on my prior Jayco Eagle (9,000lb GVWR)...., and still works great on my 24RBS.

Bob

[Finally Able]

Originally Posted by Rustic Eagle

Doug,

Like yourself, I added two heavy 6V Deep Cycle batteries to my 24RBS Jay Flight which also has a 7,500lb GVWR. I do a fair amount of boondocking.

My typical loading habits are on the heavy side, and with the pair of 6V's my loaded tongue weight is a couple pounds shy of 1,100lbs. I still use my 15 year old Reese Dual Cam WDH rated at 1,500lbs Tongue Weight that I used on my prior Jayco Eagle (9,000lb GVWR)...., and still works great on my 24RBS.

Bob

Thanks Bob (and bankr) -- this has been a very helpful discussion. I'm going to the dealer today to ask about upgrading the bars, though I suspect they'll say no, I need a new hitch set-up. If that's the case, I'm not married to the Reese, and I don't know what they'd suggest to replace, given that it's now a different dealership. I may have to rely on you (and others) to answer other questions, depending on how things shake out (which is probably not the way I should put it! 😁 )

Doug

[Finally Able]

The saga continues.
1. New dealership doesn't carry Reese products, said to call Reese tech support to find out if spring bars can be upgraded while keeping rest of hitch assembly the same. So,
2. I called tech support: answer is yes, in theory, swing bars can be upgraded, but *they don't sell* just the spring bars at this point, I'd have to buy whole new unit. I could then keep the heavier-rated bars and sell the new assembly with the lighter bars. (My hitch is in great shape, < 1 year old.)
3. Decided to look around for Reese dealers, found Camping World not that far away. Spoke with parts rep, who said it sounded to him like my tongue weight is way too high. He looked up my trailer specs, and told me mine is rated at 705 lbs (which is less than 10% of the 7500 lb GVWR of the trailer) while my scaled TW is 1040 lbs (14.6%).
4. He kept saying my TW is way too high, and otherwise recommended an Equalizer WDH ( at $710!), and that, while they are a Reese dealer, don't typically carry them. I can get a new Reese with upgraded bars for maybe half of that.

Anyway, I don't get what he was telling me, when even the Jayco manual says to aim for a TW 10 to 15% of GVWR.

Not sure what my question is here, other than I reckon I'll be getting a new hitch, probably 11000/1150 rated one, which should presumably should also help with returning some more weight to my steer axle.

Comments are welcomed, thanks.

[Route 66 Traveler]

Originally Posted by Finally Able

The saga continues.

3. Decided to look around for Reese dealers, found Camping World not that far away. Spoke with parts rep, who said it sounded to him like my tongue weight is way too high. He looked up my trailer specs, and told me mine is rated at 705 lbs (which is less than 10% of the 7500 lb GVWR of the trailer) while my scaled TW is 1040 lbs (14.6%).

Anyway, I don't get what he was telling me
Comments are welcomed, thanks.

Camping World....that's the last place I would go for advice.

My setup is almost the same as yours, weight wise. I have no experience with Reese. I am using a Fastway e2 Hitch, 10,000lb bars, 1000 pound tongue weight max. May last trip to the scale had a tongue weight of 740 pounds, Gross trailer weight was just under 7000lbs fully loaded for a trip, including 65 gallons of water. My truck...a lousy Tundra, by some people's opinions...towed it just fine. The Fastway hitch has a 2 point anti-sway system. It's made by the same company that makes the Equal-i-zer hitch, which has a 4 point anti-sway system. That's basically the only difference between the two, except for price. The e2 is less expensive.

I'm not bothered by wind or semis, can install it in less than 10 minutes, and have never had to re-adjust it since I installed it new. It was originally incorrectly installed by........wait for it.......CAMPING WORLD! It took me about 2 hours to take it apart and reinstall it correctly by the instructions.

I have been using it for over 4 years without one problem and would buy it again if need be.


https://www.equalizerhitch.com/store/hitches


https://www.fastwaytrailer.com/e2-hitch

[Finally Able]

Originally Posted by Route 66 Traveler

Camping World....that's the last place I would go for advice.

My setup is almost the same as yours, weight wise. I have no experience with Reese. I am using a Fastway e2 Hitch, 10,000lb bars, 1000 pound tongue weight max. May last trip to the scale had a tongue weight of 740 pounds, Gross trailer weight was just under 7000lbs fully loaded for a trip, including 65 gallons of water. My truck...a lousy Tundra, by some people's opinions...towed it just fine. The Fastway hitch has a 2 point anti-sway system. It's made by the same company that makes the Equal-i-zer hitch, which has a 4 point anti-sway system. That's basically the only difference between the two, except for price. The e2 is less expensive.

I'm not bothered by wind or semis, can install it in less than 10 minutes, and have never had to re-adjust it since I installed it new. It was originally incorrectly installed by........wait for it.......CAMPING WORLD! It took me about 2 hours to take it apart and reinstall it correctly by the instructions.

I have been using it for over 4 years without one problem and would buy it again if need be.


https://www.equalizerhitch.com/store/hitches


https://www.fastwaytrailer.com/e2-hitch

I have no experience with CW, but haven't heard much of anything good about them. Merely called to see if they could help with getting the bars.

[Murff]

Here are more options for a new hitch:

https://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Wei...-1100_lbs.aspx

Murff

P.S. A non RVing butcher could give better hitch advice than most employees of a Camping World store.

[Rustic Eagle]

Doug,

Originally Posted by Finally Able

snip..... He looked up my trailer specs, and told me mine is rated at 705 lbs (which is less than 10% of the 7500 lb GVWR of the trailer) while my scaled TW is 1040 lbs (14.6%)........

IMO he looked up Jayco's published "Dry Tongue Weight" for your trailer......., he didn't even realize that WDH's tongue weight ratings are sized to manage potential "Loaded" Tongue Weights.

Unfortunately many RV dealerships are clueless on how to properly size a WDH, properly adjust a WDH, and never advise customers when they depart the RV lot with a new TT that the WDH will have to re-adjusted under loaded TV/TT conditions.

Originally Posted by Finally Able

snip...... I reckon I'll be getting a new hitch, probably 11000/1150 rated one, which should presumably should also help with returning some more weight to my steer axle.....snip

You're correct. Proper WDH sizing insures the ability of removing the required weight off the TV's rear axle and return the weight back to the TV's front axle. Due to the inherent physics of the WDH leveraging process some incremental weight will also be removed from the TV's rear axle and transferred back to the TT axles (as your CAT results confirm). The loaded tongue weight that was placed on the hitch ball remains fairly constant.

Also, a properly sized WDH will be able to "maintain" the distributed weight while in-tow....., an underrated WDH will compromise this effort.

Bob

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by Murff

Here are more options for a new hitch:

https://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Wei...-1100_lbs.aspx

Murff

P.S. A non RVing butcher could give better hitch advice than most employees of a Camping World store.

Well put.

But the inability of a dealer to recommend a proper WDH is not exclusive to Camping World. I've seen WAY more stories about dealers NOT getting this right than I have of them getting it right. And I've experienced it myself too. Sure, people with problems tend to complain more than people with successes sing praises, but still...

I just can't fathom why a dealer would spec a WDH based only on the brochure dry weight (which IMO shouldn't even be published)? Or based ONLY on the GVWR as opposed to the potential tongue weight? Especially on a toy hauler! And then double down on that recommendation when faced with intelligent resistance from the customer?

But based on the number of dealerships that get it wrong, I guess I'm not surprised. I mean really, how hard is it to READ THE INSTRUCTIONS?

[Finally Able]

Originally Posted by Camper_bob

Well put.

But the inability of a dealer to recommend a proper WDH is not exclusive to Camping World. I've seen WAY more stories about dealers NOT getting this right than I have of them getting it right. And I've experienced it myself too. Sure, people with problems tend to complain more than people with successes sing praises, but still...

I just can't fathom why a dealer would spec a WDH based only on the brochure dry weight (which IMO shouldn't even be published)? Or based ONLY on the GVWR as opposed to the potential tongue weight? Especially on a toy hauler! And then double down on that recommendation when faced with intelligent resistance from the customer?

But based on the number of dealerships that get it wrong, I guess I'm not surprised. I mean really, how hard is it to READ THE INSTRUCTIONS?

Yes, I had forgotten to include that, when he stated the 705 lb spec, I said that can't be right -- it must refer to dry weight, and mentioned the 10-15% rule. He insisted that, no, the spec referried to a loaded condition. Didn't make sense to me.

[Finally Able]

Originally Posted by Rustic Eagle

Doug,



IMO he looked up Jayco's published "Dry Tongue Weight" for your trailer......., he didn't even realize that WDH's tongue weight ratings are sized to manage potential "Loaded" Tongue Weights.

Unfortunately many RV dealerships are clueless on how to properly size a WDH, properly adjust a WDH, and never advise customers when they depart the RV lot with a new TT that the WDH will have to re-adjusted under loaded TV/TT conditions. (...)

Bob

Based on my experience so far, I must agree.
Thanks.

[Finally Able]

I ordered the higher-rated Reese Round Bar Pro (11,500 lbs gross weight // 1,150 lbs tongue weight) last Thurs and was happily surprised to have them delivered yesterday (Monday), at least a day earlier than expected.
Today, I swapped out the original 800 lb spring bars for the new ones, to see how trailer performed (I was planning to sell lighter bars with new hitch, assuming I could tweak the dealer-installed hitch.) Wasn't crazy about how it looked (the nose was high, ) or how it handled, so decided to assemble and install the new hitch head dor comparison. The shank is a little different on the new hitch.

I connected the trailer and took some measurements -- the nose was still high, so I disconnected, and moved the bolts to drop the ball by one set of holes, and added 2 more spacer washers (from 4 to 6) to rotate the hitch towards the trailer.

After reconnecting, the trailer nose dropped some, and the wheel well measurement is within 1/4" whether in a.loaded or unloaded condition. I won't be able to return to CAT scale until Thursday.

Questions:

1. The spring bars aren't parallel with the trailer -- should they be?
2. If so, is best was to achieve that by lowering the bracket on the A-frame (which I haven't adjusted yet.)
3. Is the trailer nose attitude ok now, or should it be lowered further?

I took it out for a few miles on a nearby 2-lane highway bypass (max speed 50 mph,) and it handled much better -- until a gust of wind (it's been that way today) made me white-knuckle.

Thanks for any helpful responses.

[Rustic Eagle]

Doug,

The CAT visit under 'loaded' TV/TT conditions as you are aware is the only way to dial-in the WDH adjustment and confirm all the weights. Don't worry about the TV's rear fender height, focus on the TV's front axle weight return......, most TV's experience 1"-2" rear fender squat after WDH is dialed-in.

Your questions:

1. The spring bars should be as parallel to the fiction pad surface as the WDH adjustments will allow thus maximizing sway control.

2. Adjustment may involve the combination of ball mount tilt and/or bracket adjustment......., but adequate return weight distribution to the TV's front axle is priority.

3. For enhanced TV handling dealing with wind, hard stops, sudden maneuvers, etc., it's best having the TT tow level or a little nose down...., especially with a 30ft TT. You definitely want your loaded tongue weight in the 13% to 15% range, IMO closer to 15%.

Bob

[Camper_bob]

+1 to everything Bob said above.

From the pics, it looks like a "clean" install. But pics can be deceiving. If I'm you, I'm afraid of lowering the ball another set of holes; you don't want to go too much "nose down". No more than an inch would probably be ideal if attainable.

Once you DO get it dialed in by weight ticket, there are a few things to consider to make the towing experience better. You could consider getting a higher load-rated tire (won't increase your payload, but will help the truck manage it better in the form of thicker sidewalls for less lateral flex of the tire). You could consider rear suspension enhancements like Timbrens, Sumos, air springs, track bar, bigger sway bar, etc. Again, won't increase your payload, but will help your truck handle the load better.

I installed Roadmaster Active Suspension on my GMC Sierra 1500, and it made a noticeable difference (improvement) in handling loaded or unloaded.

Of course, you'll have to adjust the hitch after each modification.

[Finally Able]

Originally Posted by Rustic Eagle

Doug,

The CAT visit under 'loaded' TV/TT conditions as you are aware is the only way to dial-in the WDH adjustment and confirm all the weights. Don't worry about the TV's rear fender height, focus on the TV's front axle weight return......, most TV's experience 1"-2" rear fender squat after WDH is dialed-in.

Your questions:

1. The spring bars should be as parallel to the fiction pad surface as the WDH adjustments will allow thus maximizing sway control.

2. Adjustment may involve the combination of ball mount tilt and/or bracket adjustment......., but adequate return weight distribution to the TV's front axle is priority.

3. For enhanced TV handling dealing with wind, hard stops, sudden maneuvers, etc., it's best having the TT tow level or a little nose down.

Bob

I realized I omitted the word "front" before "wheel well". I indeed measured the front wells. Before and after loading, within +/- 1/4" of 37", so I'm happy with that. I'll repeat the CAT scale 3 weighs on Thursday to confirm axle weights are within the norm. (My wife is getting impatient with my fretting over this -- we leave for Cape Cod, just 3 hours away, on Sunday.)

I have another set of holes on the A-frame bracket that I can lower the bolts to -- this should help with making the bars parallel (but I hope it doesn't throw off the lowered nose attitude.) Bob -- again, many thanks -- this isn't intuitive to me. My dad had only an 8th grade education but became a mechanic and ultimately a millwright. My sons are also mechanically-inclined. Apparently it skips a generation!

[Finally Able]

Originally Posted by Camper_bob

+1 to everything Bob said above.

From the pics, it looks like a "clean" install. But pics can be deceiving. If I'm you, I'm afraid of lowering the ball another set of holes; you don't want to go too much "nose down". No more than an inch would probably be ideal if attainable.

Once you DO get it dialed in by weight ticket, there are a few things to consider to make the towing experience better. You could consider getting a higher load-rated tire (won't increase your payload, but will help the truck manage it better in the form of thicker sidewalls for less lateral flex of the tire). You could consider rear suspension enhancements like Timbrens, Sumos, air springs, track bar, bigger sway bar, etc. Again, won't increase your payload, but will help your truck handle the load better.

I installed Roadmaster Active Suspension on my GMC Sierra 1500, and it made a noticeable difference (improvement) in handling loaded or unloaded.

Of course, you'll have to adjust the hitch after each modification.

I'm not planning to lower the ball mount any further, just the bracket end tp try to make the spring bars more parallel.

Also, as to the lowered nose, you reminded me that I forgot to measure the height above ground of the trailer's four corners.

Regarding tires, I guess I'd rather spend $50 to try a Reese friction anti-sway bar -- my tires only have about 8000 miles on them. But first, I'll run it through the CAT scale and put some more highway miles on it to see how she does.

Thanks, Camper_Bob!

[ttavasc]

Originally Posted by Finally Able

I'm not planning to lower the ball mount any further, just the bracket end tp try to make the spring bars more parallel.

Also, as to the lowered nose, you reminded me that I forgot to measure the height above ground of the trailer's four corners.

Regarding tires, I guess I'd rather spend $50 to try a Reese friction anti-sway bar -- my tires only have about 8000 miles on them. But first, I'll run it through the CAT scale and put some more highway miles on it to see how she does.

Thanks, Camper_Bob!

Sort of related to Camper_Bob's comment on the higher load-rated tires - if you have P-rated tires which most all 1/2 tons that I've seen come with - make sure you inflate them to the max cold pressure on the sidewall. That can help reduce sidewall flexing. I could always tell when I forgot to do that when towing with my RAM 1500 - it felt a little soft and squishy under load and there was a little wiggle to the rear end at times.

[Finally Able]

Originally Posted by ttavasc

Sort of related to Camper_Bob's comment on the higher load-rated tires - if you have P-rated tires which most all 1/2 tons that I've seen come with - make sure you inflate them to the max cold pressure on the sidewall. That can help reduce sidewall flexing. I could always tell when I forgot to do that when towing with my RAM 1500 - it felt a little soft and squishy under load and there was a little wiggle to the rear end at times.

The truck (2020 Silverado 1500) came with Goodyear Fortitude HTs (which I was unaware until I googled just now apparently aren't very well-liked.) I've only owned the vehicle since last August, and they seem fine to me -- quiet, smooth, ok when slippery, decent mileage. Maybe these tires aren't the best for pulling a trailer -- I'll have to live with them for a while. But I digress.

My tire label on the door pillar calls for a 35 psi max pressure, which I maintain. Tires say 51 psi max. -- so you say run them at 51? I've always been told to follow pillar sticker.

[Wxman]

I had those same tires on my last truck. 35psi does give you the max load rating for the tire. It is more of a minimum pressure to carry the max load of the truck. You can run higher pressure, up to the sidewall pressure of 51 max. the tire is made for it. It won't increase the load rating of the tire, but it will stiffen up the sidewall and decrease 'movement' in the rear of the truck.
I ran my rear tires at 45 when towing, my trailer smaller than yours) You won't want to leave them aired up when empty. My backend would bounce around on bumps then.

Good luck

[ttavasc]

Originally Posted by Finally Able

The truck (2020 Silverado 1500) came with Goodyear Fortitude HTs (which I was unaware until I googled just now apparently aren't very well-liked.) I've only owned the vehicle since last August, and they seem fine to me -- quiet, smooth, ok when slippery, decent mileage. Maybe these tires aren't the best for pulling a trailer -- I'll have to live with them for a while. But I digress.

My tire label on the door pillar calls for a 35 psi max pressure, which I maintain. Tires say 51 psi max. -- so you say run them at 51? I've always been told to follow pillar sticker.

Yes - I think at 35 the sidewalls are probably going to flex quite a bit given the load. On my RAM the sticker I believe was for 36 or 38 with the max sidewall being 44. It made a difference in the ride and handling when loaded when I aired up to 44. I'd give it a try. I wouldn't expect it to solve the issue on its own, but it should help improve things.

[ttavasc]

Originally Posted by Wxman

I had those same tires on my last truck. 35psi does give you the max load rating for the tire. It is more of a minimum pressure to carry the max load of the truck. You can run higher pressure, up to the sidewall pressure of 51 max. the tire is made for it. It won't increase the load rating of the tire, but it will stiffen up the sidewall and decrease 'movement' in the rear of the truck.
I ran my rear tires at 45 when towing, my trailer smaller than yours) You won't want to leave them aired up when empty. My backend would bounce around on bumps then.

Good luck

I would concur with this - I always reduced them back to the sticker when not towing. Also, I only did this with the rear tires - the front were never an issue at the stickered value.