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Old 05-04-2021, 12:47 PM   #1
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CAT Scale info -- help needed

Hi all, I brought my trailer to the closest CAT scale (an hour away) and did the 3 weighings (TV only, TV + TT -- WDH bars engaged, and lastly TV + TT -- WDH bars disengaged.) Out of curiousity I shifted some of the heavier things around in the trailer to see what that does to the loading, and had 2 more weighings performed (didn't reweigh the TV.)

I'm trying to make sense of these numbers.

First, my info:

TV: 2020 Silverado 1500, 5.3L V-8 (L84) short bed 4X4. Max towing = 9,600 lbs; max payload 1,875 lbs.
TT: 2021 SLX8 287BHS, 7,500 lbs max loaded weight
Reese Round Bar Pro hitch, rated for 8,000 lbs (800 lbs max tongue weight)

Numbers:
1st Weighing sequence

TV only: Steer axle 3340 lbs; Rear axle 2560 lbs. = 5,900 lbs in loaded condition

TV + TT -- WDH bars engaged: Steer axle 3200 lbs; Rear axle 3620 lbs.; Trailer axle 6360 lbs.

TV + TT -- WDH bars disengaged: Steer axle 2920; Rear axle 4040 lbs; Trailer axle 6220 lbs.

I derived a Tongue Weight of 920 lbs, which is 14.5% of the weighed TT (920/6360 = 14.47%)

2nd Weighing sequence:

TV only, using numbers from above) Steer axle 3340 lbs; Rear axle 2560 lbs = 5,900 lbs.

TV + TT -- WDH bars engaged: Steer axle 2940 lbs; Rear axle 3960 lbs; Trailer axle 6260 lbs

TV + TT -- WDH bars disengaged: Steer axle 3220 lbs; Rear axle 3540 lbs; Trailer axle 6400 lbs.

From this weighing, I derived a Tongue Weight of 1000 lbs, which is 16% of the weighed TT (1000/6260) I don't know why this weighing of TT is exactly 100 lbs less than 1st weighing, both with the bars engaged.

From what I've gathered, there shouldn't be more than a 50 to maybe 80 lb. difference in the steer axle weights, with and without the TT hitched to the TV (with the bars engaged.) I'm getting a negative 140 lb difference in the 1st weighing (3200-3340) and a negative 260 lb difference (3200-2940) in the second.

Clearly, the 1st weighing was more favorable than the 2nd (no surprise to me,) but the -140 lb steer axle difference when towing seems concerning to me.

Also, Reese says the max tongue weight on this hitch should be 800 lbs, which is 10% of its max tow rating. Are they just being conservative, given that the general recommendation for tongue weights is that they should run between 10% to 15% of what you're towing.

Am I seeing this the right way? Have I made any errors? How can I improve the steer axle condition -- is it a hitch adjustment? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Many thanks -- my brain is tired. (PS:I'm a retired nurseryman and landscape contractor, and for years would tow an 8' X 16' enclosed trailer that would hold plants, machinery, etc. I would always judge by eye and sense how to load the trailer, never used a CAT scale. Towing a travel trailer which is a few feet taller and 12 1/2' longer is an entirely different experience.)
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:10 PM   #2
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First off, are you sure you didn't get the last two slips mixed up? With the WDH engaged you would expect Steer UP, Drive DOWN, Trailer UP. You got the opposite effect which is pretty hard to do with a WDH. At worst the numbers should stay the same (no effect) but a negative effect is hard (to my thinking, impossible actually) to achieve.
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:33 PM   #3
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Outside of that issue, how does it feel to drive? You don't need to put all of the weight back onto the steer axle, mine runs a bit lighter as well, but if it feels unplanted or squirrely then adjust. You can either add a washer to the head or adjust the hangers for bars. The Reese is a bit different from my Husky (chain links) so check the manual for the hitch to determine which makes the most sense. I'm thinking that raising the hangers one notch is easier than adding a washer.

Also, I would note that my 2011 Chev denoted tongue weight is measured "without WDH engaged" so technically your tongue weights are 1060 and 1000. Engaged it 'drops' to 920/860 but the physics of it says that the higher weight actually still exists at the tongue - you are just using leverage to move it around. Note - these numbers assume that the 2nd weighings are reversed.
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Old 05-04-2021, 02:20 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by bankr63 View Post
First off, are you sure you didn't get the last two slips mixed up? With the WDH engaged you would expect Steer UP, Drive DOWN, Trailer UP. You got the opposite effect which is pretty hard to do with a WDH. At worst the numbers should stay the same (no effect) but a negative effect is hard (to my thinking, impossible actually) to achieve.
You know, I didn't, but wonder if they did? They were having trouble printing one of the tickets (it took 3 different employees to make it work -- you know there's a problem when the 1st one says "Oh, I hate when this happens. Jay, do you remember how to make this work?") and I was going by the time stamp on them. I wonder if they printed 3rd before the 2nd, or if that's possible. This is why my head hurts.
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Old 05-04-2021, 05:23 PM   #5
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You know, I didn't, but wonder if they did? They were having trouble printing one of the tickets (it took 3 different employees to make it work -- you know there's a problem when the 1st one says "Oh, I hate when this happens. Jay, do you remember how to make this work?") and I was going by the time stamp on them. I wonder if they printed 3rd before the 2nd, or if that's possible. This is why my head hurts.
Either that, or you've invented the anti-gravity WDH and there are a couple of scientists at NASA who would like to meet you...
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Old 05-04-2021, 05:58 PM   #6
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Also, I don't think you are calculating the TT tongue weight % correctly. Using your first numbers WDH disengaged:
2920 Steer, 4040 Drive, 6220 TT = 13180 combined, subtract 5900 (TV) leaves 7280 TT weight. 6220 of that weight is on the axles leaving 1060 on the tongue
1060/7280 (tongue weight divided by TT weight) gives~14.6%

I agree with bankr about the tongue weights, but think you need to divide by total TT weight, not just the weight on axles.

Right or wrong I would use the sum of the TV axle weights (WDH engaged) to determine if within payload / GVWR rating of TV.

Happy camping
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Old 05-04-2021, 06:15 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by bankr63 View Post
Either that, or you've invented the anti-gravity WDH and there are a couple of scientists at NASA who would like to meet you...
Well then, I guess another trip to the CAT Scale will be in my future, but can't go until at least Thursday 😏... Ah well, at least this time I know the drill. Thanks for helping.
I'll post those results on this thread.
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Old 05-04-2021, 07:07 PM   #8
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Also, I don't think you are calculating the TT tongue weight % correctly. Using your first numbers WDH disengaged:
2920 Steer, 4040 Drive, 6220 TT = 13180 combined, subtract 5900 (TV) leaves 7280 TT weight. 6220 of that weight is on the axles leaving 1060 on the tongue
1060/7280 (tongue weight divided by TT weight) gives~14.6%

I agree with bankr about the tongue weights, but think you need to divide by total TT weight, not just the weight on axles.

Right or wrong I would use the sum of the TV axle weights (WDH engaged) to determine if within payload / GVWR rating of TV.

Happy camping
Ah, gotcha. See, here's a problem: I'm finding different ways to determine Tongue Weight online. I was using an equation from Camp Addict which says to:
1. Weigh TV while fully connected to TT. The TT axle weight = A.
2. Disconnect, weigh TV. This is B.
3. Subtract B from A to give Tongue Weight.

(My Jayco owner's manual doesn't give any formula for calculating TW, it only says to maintain 10% -- 15% of TT gross weight.)
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Old 05-04-2021, 08:35 PM   #9
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EDIT: The more I've pondered this, here's where I'm at. Let's ignore the 2nd weighing sequence, because it's not important to my original question -- it was more of an experiment, so please disregard.

Thanks to Wxman (and other resources I found) I've redetermined the Tongue Weight to be 1,060 lbs, using formula of:

Gross TT/TV wt of 13,180 minus TV weight of 5,900 = 7,280 lbs; minus TT axle wt (bars disengaged) of 6,220 = 1,060 lbs.

1,060 7,280 = .146, or 14.6% Tongue Weight, so within range of the upper recommended limit of 15%.

Still, the WDH is not returning 140 lbs to the steer axle (3200 lbs when bars are engaged, vs 3340 when only truck is weighed.) Shouldn't this number be closer? If so, is the remedy an adjustment of the WDH? (It was dealer-installed.)

As to how the trailer tows, well, the reason I wanted to weigh it is because I just traded out the 40 lb DP Group 24 battery for a couple 6V Gold Cart batteries, which added a net of 80 lbs to the A frame. I also added some 2x2s, luan plywood and foam board to reinforce bed and insulate the cold spots. I drove it several times last year, before this weight was added, and found it handled really well until a semi would pass us, (and sometimes even an SUV) where the rear end would sway a bit. I wasn't sure what the change in tongue weight would do in terms of performance. Though I drove it a couple hours to and from the scale yesterday, most was at speeds under 50 mph, so very little highway. I still didn't quite like the way it felt, so I'm wondering about the WDH needing tweaking to add a bit more weight to the steer axle, or am I barking up the wrong tree? I never had these problems towing a loaded enclosed trailer with my old F450 dump, or a large Kubota on a 20' equipment trailer. These large boxes are different!
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Old 05-04-2021, 08:59 PM   #10
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By chance, did the dealer leave you with the hitch manual? If not, it can probably be printed off their website. Go through the set up instructions, and see if you need to make an adjustment.

We traded trucks, so I had to set it up myself on the new(er) truck. There were fender well measurements before and after the bars were hooked up, making sure they were parallel to the trailer A frame, and the ball angle, which adds or subtracts the weight to the front axle. The more angle it has, the more weight is transferred to the front. The object was to get the fender well measurements as close as I could, whether hitched or not. I got them to within 1/2", and that was good.
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Old 05-04-2021, 09:16 PM   #11
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By chance, did the dealer leave you with the hitch manual? If not, it can probably be printed off their website. Go through the set up instructions, and see if you need to make an adjustment.

We traded trucks, so I had to set it up myself on the new(er) truck. There were fender well measurements before and after the bars were hooked up, making sure they were parallel to the trailer A frame, and the ball angle, which adds or subtracts the weight to the front axle. The more angle it has, the more weight is transferred to the front. The object was to get the fender well measurements as close as I could, whether hitched or not. I got them to within 1/2", and that was good.
Thanks -- I do have the manual, just hoping not to have to open that can of worms before we go out in a week and a half on our 1st trip this year. Plus I'd rather not have to buy a large torque wrench-- though I suppose it could be useful for tightening up lugs.

I haven't done the wheel well measurement yet -- but that's a good reminder to try that. (Problem is I have it parked 25 mins away, and I have to move it to check, as truck is on grass when I hitch up.)
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Old 05-04-2021, 09:59 PM   #12
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A decent 1/2" drive torque wrench is a good tool to have in the garage for just that reason. You don't need to remove the ball, so the really HD wrench isn't needed. Mine is 50 years old, and I use it frequently, especially on lug nuts. They torque range is normally from 20 to 150 ft/lbs on that size drive.
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Old 05-05-2021, 01:05 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Finally Able View Post
snip..... Still, the WDH is not returning 140 lbs to the steer axle (3200 lbs when bars are engaged, vs 3340 when only truck is weighed.) Shouldn't this number be closer? If so, is the remedy an adjustment of the WDH?.......snip
Just a couple thoughts.......

* Your 1,060lb loaded TT tongue weight requires a WDH rated @ 1,200lbs for effective weight distribution adjustment/control.., I believe you have a WDH rated at 800lbs (?).

* CAT scales have a certified tolerance of plus/minus 40lbs.

* A TV front suspension returned weight of 40lbs - 80lbs 'less' than your TV only axle weight of 3,340lbs is a good target (lieu of 140lbs). Exceeding 3,340lbs returned weight will compress the suspension and may effect TV handling characteristics.

CAT scale visit and WDH re-adjustemnt is most effective under typical 'loaded' ready-to-camp TV/TT conditions...., RV dealerships 'at best' adjust a WDH under "unloaded' conditions.

Bob
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Old 05-05-2021, 01:53 PM   #14
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I think the most important indicator is that you said it didn't feel right.

If that is the case, then yes, you should be investigating adjusting the hitch. You are always going to know there is a trailer back there, but it should still feel safe and planted.

You could consider upgrading your bars to the next level up, but you are well within the trailer weight rating. My Husky bars are the same - the manufacturer rates them at 800/8000 tongue/trailer weight. You are within the trailer weight, which is the only measure that most other manufacturers give.
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Old 05-05-2021, 06:07 PM   #15
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Just a couple thoughts.......

Snip...* Your 1,060lb loaded TT tongue weight requires a WDH rated @ 1,200lbs for effective weight distribution adjustment/control.., I believe you have a WDH rated at 800lbs (?).


Bob
As I first posted, hitch is rated at 8000 lbs/800 lbs -- but 800 lbs tongue weight is 10% of trailer the hitch can handle, while the general recommendation for tongue weight is 10% -- 15% of the max gross trailer weight. I asked if 800 lbs was a conservative spec.

So, to which limit should I abide -- the hitch max weight rating for the trailer? The hitch rating for the tongue weight? Stick to the 10% -- 15% rule?

My assumption is to follow the weight limit of 8000 lbs, as well as the 10-15 rule. (This hitch is what the dealer sold me with the trailer package.)

...
QUOTE=Rustic Eagle;960417]...
* A TV front suspension returned weight of 40lbs - 80lbs 'less' than your TV only axle weight of 3,340lbs is a good target (lieu of 140lbs). Exceeding 3,340lbs returned weight will compress the suspension and may effect TV handling characteristics. [/QUOTE]

Totally get that.

QUOTE=Rustic Eagle;960417]
CAT scale visit and WDH re-adjustemnt is most effective under typical 'loaded' ready-to-camp TV/TT conditions...., RV dealerships 'at best' adjust a WDH under "unloaded' conditions. [/QUOTE]

Good point (although I'd rather have the experienced tech who installed the hitch and ran through the PDI with me) to be able to extrapolate the condition of a loaded trailer.

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it. (I'll figure out the "snipping" shortcut eventually!)
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Old 05-05-2021, 06:11 PM   #16
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I think the most important indicator is that you said it didn't feel right.

If that is the case, then yes, you should be investigating adjusting the hitch. You are always going to know there is a trailer back there, but it should still feel safe and planted.

You could consider upgrading your bars to the next level up, but you are well within the trailer weight rating. My Husky bars are the same - the manufacturer rates them at 800/8000 tongue/trailer weight. You are within the trailer weight, which is the only measure that most other manufacturers give.
I'm going to give tweaking a shot. Thank you!
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Old 05-05-2021, 08:15 PM   #17
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Finally Able,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finally Able View Post
As I first posted, hitch is rated at 8000 lbs/800 lbs -- but 800 lbs tongue weight is 10% of trailer the hitch can handle, while the general recommendation for tongue weight is 10% -- 15% of the max gross trailer weight. I asked if 800 lbs was a conservative spec. .......snip
The Reese WDH Pro Round Bar 800lb Tongue Weight is a 'maximum' weight spec. (per Reese Installation documentation)...., whether it be at 10%, 13.5%, 14.6%, etc., of the trailer's actual scaled gross weight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finally Able View Post
snip....... So, to which limit should I abide -- the hitch max weight rating for the trailer? The hitch rating for the tongue weight? Stick to the 10% -- 15% rule? My assumption is to follow the weight limit of 8000 lbs, as well as the 10-15 rule........snip
You're correct, follow both WDH specified weight limits of 8000lb/800lb.

Under loaded conditions most TT's that cross a CAT scale fall in the 13% to 15% range, which also enhances TV handling in less than ideal towing conditions (cross winds, sudden maneuvers, road conditions, etc.) in lieu of 10% - 12%.

Many folks find that longer/heavier TT's handle better closer to 15%....., thus IMO your 14.6% (1,060lb) tongue weight with your 30ft/7,280lb gross weight TT is ideal.

Hope this helps....., don't mean to add any unnecessary confusion.

Referenced Reese documentation: https://www.reeseprod.com/product-as...all/N49912.pdf

Bob
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Old 05-05-2021, 09:14 PM   #18
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Finally Able,



The Reese WDH Pro Round Bar 800lb Tongue Weight is a 'maximum' weight spec. (per Reese Installation documentation)...., whether it be at 10%, 13.5%, 14.6%, etc., of the trailer's actual scaled gross weight.



You're correct, follow both WDH specified weight limits of 8000lb/800lb.

Under loaded conditions most TT's that cross a CAT scale fall in the 13% to 15% range, which also enhances TV handling in less than ideal towing conditions (cross winds, sudden maneuvers, road conditions, etc.) in lieu of 10% - 12%.

Many folks find that longer/heavier TT's handle better closer to 15%....., thus IMO your 14.6% (1,060lb) tongue weight with your 30ft/7,280lb gross weight TT is ideal.

Hope this helps....., don't mean to add any unnecessary confusion.

Referenced Reese documentation: https://www.reeseprod.com/product-as...all/N49912.pdf

Bob
So, what you're saying here, is :
1. My 1040 lb // 14.6% tongue weight is good, but

2. My hitch TW rating of 800 lbs is insufficient; even though the gross trailer weight rating of 8000 lbs exceeds my 7240 lb scaled trailer weight? So

3. I should replace the WDH with a 12000/1200 lb. unit?

And then seek to return all but 40 to 80 lbs to the steer axle (as mentioned in an earlier post) by tweaking the hitch adjustment?

Do I have this correct? Thanks --

Doug
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Old 05-05-2021, 10:27 PM   #19
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Doug,

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snip.......Do I have this correct? Thanks --Doug
Yes, your spot-on.

If you like the "Reese Round Bar Pro" model WDH like you have, it does come in a 11,500lb/1,150lb rated version (in lieu of a 12,000/1,200)....., and would still support a loaded tongue weight of 1,125lbs (15%) if your 287BHS was loaded to it's 7,500lb GVWR.

Just thinking out loud here........, Historically most 'standard' Round Spring Bar style WDH's the spring bars are dedicated, not interchangeable. Since WDH 'ball mount' designs are always changing, I would double check with your RV dealer if the "Reese Round Bar Pro" style WDH if your two 800lb rated round spring bars can be replaced with two "Reese Round Bar Pro" 1,150lb rated round spring bars (cheaper than a total WDH replacement)

Note: A 12,000/1,200 rated WDH isn't over-kill for the 287BHS, even with potential lower loaded tongue weights of the 287BHS. As you are aware, proper WDH adjustment is key in optimizing the performance of any WDH.

Bob
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Old 05-05-2021, 11:05 PM   #20
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Thanks, I'll look into it.
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