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Old 03-08-2018, 03:05 PM   #21
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Do you all turn everything off before looking at the volts to determine state of charge?


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Yes. Measure voltage when batteries are fully charged, float charge has dissipated and no load. As far as "fully charged" you need to follow each manufacturers specification. My Full River 12v J185 AGM batteries are fully charged at 12.84 volts after a 25amp charge from my Noko Genius charger.
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Old 03-09-2018, 10:27 AM   #22
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I needed to wait until today to respond as to why it really makes no difference in the RVing World, whether you say the 50% rule is 12.0, 12.1 11.9 or 12.2 volts. Granted 12.10 volts is the standard, but the one thing that I noticed over the years (since the 60's) is that, other than a FLUKE meter (or other high quality meters) that have been calibrated on a regular basis, there is no consistency between "Off The Shelf" voltage meters (multimeters) to the point of a 1/10th of a volt level.

Normal RVers are not going to spend $100+ for a meter to check their RV batteries and pay to have it calibrated regularly. I have one only because I needed it in my line of work (pre-retirement). Do I use it all the time? Absolutely not, I use my Innova 3320 multimeter (bedrck46, please note I said "MULTIMETER"). Why, it is within a few hundredths of a volt from the FLUKE, and I use the MULTIMETER constantly throughout the day. Wear and tear.

Sooooo, being that I am retired, I have the option to hit my other retired neighbors for the use of their MULTIMETERS for a quick test. I used my 6 Volt 12Ah battery used for my electronics projects. If you are interested, the battery temperature is 58.7 degrees F. My voltage reading was 6.56 (Fluke), (battery is connected 24/7 to a small 10-watt solar panel). Yes, even my little project battery uses SOLAR.

So here are the results of my random meter research.

My Fluke 6.56VDC
My INNOVA 3320 6.59VDC
My Arduino 6.51VDC (need to calibrate it)
My HarborFreight (FREE) 7.1VDC (with new battery inside, moved it to the trash bin)
Neighbor #1 Fluke 6.54VDC
Neighbor #2 Stalwart 6.23VDC
Neighbor #3 ??? Worn 5.31VDC (old meter)
Neighbor #4 Powerbuilt ? 6.74VDC (voltage fluctuating, probably old battery inside)
Neighbor #5 internal batteries/contacts were all corroded, needless to say, no readings.

Sorry, but I could not locate my OLD "ANALOG" multimeter just for a comparison.

I started with my neighbor that uses a FLUKE meter, he lives right across the street, and was outside at the time, his meter was -0.02 volts off of my FLUKE readings. Not bad at all! One thing to understand, neither of our meters have been calibrated in the last 10 or more years.

My point here is that when using "Off the Shelf Meters" there is no real consistency at the .1 Volt level. These meters are all over the place. So, 12.0 volts is a ball park figure. All you want to do is give people an easy number to remember and they may or may not check their battery levels, but I doubt the majority will. So, unless you have a calibrated FLUKE (or equivalent) meter, you have a meter that is SOMEWHERE in the 12.? volt ball park. Hopefully....

Well, now my neighbors probably think that I have gone over the deep end. Wait, they already know that. It was nice catching up on the latest neighborhood gossip.

Enjoy

Don


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Old 03-09-2018, 12:30 PM   #23
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. . . really makes no difference in the RVing World, whether you say the 50% rule is 12.0, 12.1 11.9 or 12.2 volts . . . My point here is that when using "Off the Shelf Meters" there is no real consistency at the .1 Volt level. These meters are all over the place. So, 12.0 volts is a ball park figure . . .
Mustang65, you seem to have the worst luck/accuracy with your voltmeters (VM)--lol! Rather than drag my $$ Fluke VM around a bunch of mud and rocks, I use several "free" Harbor Freight VM's for general RV voltage checks. In DC 20 volt mode, I've found most of them read within +/- .05 vdc of my Fluke and several calibrated VM's I have access to. If they don't read within +/-.05 vdc, I toss it, and grab another one off the shelf that does. They're free, so not an issue. Accuracy is not a problem for me.

FWIW, it's very easy to take most any operational VM, regardless how inaccurate it may be, and establish a baseline by taking a voltage reading when the battery is fully charged (i.e, maximum voltage after sustained charging). This establishes a nominal baseline for 100% SOC. Simply take this voltage reading and step it down in .10 vdc increments to establish voltage readings for 0 - 100% SOC using the same VM. This is an infinitely more accurate way (to determine SOC) than your suggestion to use any voltage between 11.9 and 12.2 as a reference for 50% SOC simply because you feel most VM's are inaccurate!

In any case, back to the original point. Mustang65, why you're so adamant about using 12.00 vdc as a "ballpark" average for 50% SOC is beyond me. If you spend a few minutes checking out SOC charts, rarely do they ever go below 12.10 volts. Quite a few go as high as 12.25 volts. This represents a "ballpark" average of 12.18 vdc for 50% SOC. You may disagree with all these charts, but nonetheless they do carry some weight--definitely more weight than anything you or I could opine about.
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Old 03-09-2018, 02:19 PM   #24
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CampNow, if you look at the RVing population, I would venture to say that 99.+% of the them do not carry a multimeter with them. Of the 504,599 new RV's sold last year, how many of those owners carry a multimeter? I would guess based on listening to new members on this forum, that they don't even know that they should pack one. They look at the "IDIOT Lights" that the mfr installs, and we both know where that will get you.

As you mentioned, if the Harbor Freight meter (or anyone) does not fall with in your acceptable range, then you toss it, as I did this morning. For us that is an easy task, pull out the FLUKE compare the readings and take any necessary action (dump the cheap one or keep it...). How many RVers have access to a FLUKE,? Not a very many, and even if they did, how many would think, or want to compare their meter to a calibrated one. Heck, after 10 years how do I know my FLUKE is accurate any more. I could be tossing cheap meters that just happen to be, at that point in time, more accurate than my FLUKE. Not very likely, but you never know.

What is interesting are the Inexpensive Battery Monitors that I have purchased and installed (self and for others) were ALL very accurate. Well now that I said that, they will probably all go south... lol

To me I get a smile when I get a PM or see someone post that he/she has decided to get a meter and monitor their battery(s). To me that is one more person that will at least keep their battery voltage in the BALL PARK and not hit the 10.5 volt or lower point where they are slowly killing their battery.

Well lets get going, we only have convince 504,598 of the new RVers monitoring their batteries is the way to go, and they are a small part of the Approximately 8.9 million households that own an RV. ...yes we can even use 12.1 volts lol

Have a GRAT day!

Don


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Old 03-09-2018, 02:26 PM   #25
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Of those 504,598 people with new RVs, probably 500,000 of them don't give a crap about their state of charge on the battery, or just don't know any better and don't give a crap about learning it.

They're going to start with a good battery, kill it a few times each summer, leave it in the trailer all winter to freeze and drop to literally no charge at all, and then go buy a new one the next year. Repeat process. If you're smart enough to monitor this stuff, you're smart enough to figure out a way that works for your set up.
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Old 03-09-2018, 03:12 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Mustang65 View Post
CampNow, if you look at the RVing population, I would venture to say that 99.+% of the them do not carry a multimeter with them. Of the 504,599 new RV's sold last year, how many of those owners carry a multimeter? I would guess based on listening to new members on this forum, that they don't even know that they should pack one. They look at the "IDIOT Lights" that the mfr installs, and we both know where that will get you . . .

Have a GRAT day!

Don
Yes, valid take on the average RV'r.

However, that was not the premise of my debate with you. I took issue with how you "bent/twisted" some processes solely to fit your personal (and very questionable) spin on calculating SOC.

In any case, since you didn't directly refute my last post, and, instead, changed the topic, I'll take that as your tacit approval of what I said. Thank you.

May you also have a great day, Mustang65!
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Old 03-09-2018, 07:09 PM   #27
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I worked at one time in a metrology lab calibrating everything from volt meters to weights, balances etc. The readings were traceable to the National Bureau of Standards and were calibrated on a regular basis. I wouldn't trust any reading of any instrument off the shelf to a very high degree. Approximate would be about it.
I kept my Fluke but it hasn't been calibrated in a long time so I just take that in to consideration.
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Old 03-10-2018, 10:42 AM   #28
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Just to clarify to everyone, Mustang65 is saying that consumer VM's are so inaccurate that RV'rs (in effect any consumer) should basically ignore established guidelines for calculating state of charge--that established SOC charts are only useful for lab technicians with calibrated test equipment. I challenge Mustang65 to present any hard, conclusive data (from a reputable source) that backs up this claim. This is a classic example of how erroneous, unproven information gets distributed on the internet.

Mustang65's claim that consumer VM's are so inaccurate that RV'rs can use a voltage spread of 11.90 - 12.20 vdc as a check for 50% SOC is misinformation at its worst.

If Mustang65 would have just owned up to his mistake of incorrectly stating the commonly accepted voltage for 50% SOC, then we would all have been spared this huge smokescreen about the average RV'r not having the proper expertise or equipment to properly maintain their batteries. IMO, Mustang65 let his pride get in the way on this one.
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Old 03-10-2018, 01:43 PM   #29
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Of those 504,598 people with new RVs, probably 500,000 of them don't give a crap about their state of charge on the battery, or just don't know any better and don't give a crap about learning it.

They're going to start with a good battery, kill it a few times each summer, leave it in the trailer all winter to freeze and drop to literally no charge at all, and then go buy a new one the next year. Repeat process. If you're smart enough to monitor this stuff, you're smart enough to figure out a way that works for your set up.
As an electrician of 35 years who uses a calibrated Fluke 87 and knows what the hell I'm doing I have to say Skybound hit the nail on the head with his post. Right on Skybound!!
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Old 03-10-2018, 05:58 PM   #30
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I needed to wait until today to respond as to why it really makes no difference in the RVing World, whether you say the 50% rule is 12.0, 12.1 11.9 or 12.2 volts. Granted 12.10 volts is the standard, but the one thing that I noticed over the years (since the 60's) is that, other than a FLUKE meter (or other high quality meters) that have been calibrated on a regular basis, there is no consistency between "Off The Shelf" voltage meters (multimeters) to the point of a 1/10th of a volt level.

Normal RVers are not going to spend $100+ for a meter to check their RV batteries and pay to have it calibrated regularly. I have one only because I needed it in my line of work (pre-retirement). Do I use it all the time? Absolutely not, I use my Innova 3320 multimeter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang65 View Post
So here are the results of my random meter research.

My Fluke 6.56VDC
My INNOVA 3320 6.59VDC
My Arduino 6.51VDC (need to calibrate it)
My HarborFreight (FREE) 7.1VDC (with new battery inside, moved it to the trash bin)
Neighbor #1 Fluke 6.54VDC
Neighbor #2 Stalwart 6.23VDC
Neighbor #3 ??? Worn 5.31VDC (old meter)
Neighbor #4 Powerbuilt ? 6.74VDC (voltage fluctuating, probably old battery inside)
Neighbor #5 internal batteries/contacts were all corroded, needless to say, no readings.

My point here is that when using "Off the Shelf Meters" there is no real consistency at the .1 Volt level. These meters are all over the place. So, 12.0 volts is a ball park figure. All you want to do is give people an easy number to remember and they may or may not check their battery levels, but I doubt the majority will. So, unless you have a calibrated FLUKE (or equivalent) meter, you have a meter that is SOMEWHERE in the 12.? volt ball park. Hopefully....
The only accurate part of the equation is that the 12.1 VOLTS is the 50% rule,. But that 12.1 volts when using "Off the Shelf" meters that have NOT been calibrated and a + or - voltage REFERENCE chart created, is a number that most believe is bible.

Let's take my neighbors and say that they now own an RV and they take there current multimeter (which they all thought were OK) and put it into their RV. Now those neighbors and their multimerters have gone off dry-camping (none of which would even want to have an RV or go camping). They set up and at the end of the day, they pull out their multimeters from home and do a battery check. Here is what each of them would have found, should all of their RV batteries been drained during the day to 12.1VDC (ACTUAL) battery voltage based on the 6VDC reading converted to 12VDC. See the picture below.
(I doubled the 6VDC voltage (which was at FLOAT), to 12Volt battery at 13.12. Took the difference between my FLUKE's reading 13.12 and 12.1, and calculated the voltage drop for each meters reading, and selected the proper SOC for the calculated voltages from there meter readings minus 1.02 volt difference on my meter. Hope I did the math right. I am sitting here dying after installing baby cabinet locks on all the cabinets, putting up a barrier between the office and rest of the house, and power washing the patio. Is it 10PM yet? 1 year old twin granddaughters arrive Tuesday.

The readings are all over the place. Granted this was a small sample, but these are people that use their meters probably a few times a year. and never change their batteries in them. Sounds like a lot of REAL RVers I know. Interestingly enough the neighbor that had the 5.31 reading, said I needed to charge my battery to get it back up to 6 volts.

That leads to problem number 2, people think that their (FREE), $5, $10, $15, $20 dollar meters are perfect, and they do not realize that a lot of these meters can be 5% or 10%.... off, and how would they know it. They are not electricians, they are campers, so that 1 or 2 times they check their battery voltage, they ASSUME (have to love that word) that what you see is what you have.

Sscheitel, sorry that your post got hijacked!!

I guess I will put my side of this discussion to rest now.

Don

I see an error in 2 of the numbers already... will correct
No it is correct.

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Old 03-12-2018, 08:05 PM   #31
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The only accurate part of the equation is that the 12.1 VOLTS is the 50% rule,. But that 12.1 volts when using "Off the Shelf" meters that have NOT been calibrated and a + or - voltage REFERENCE chart created, is a number that most believe is bible . . .

Don
Mustang65, rather than simply recycling the same opinion, theme, and anecdotal evidence in each post . . . it might prove much more helpful to everyone if you could explain why you have not provided quality evidence to substantiate, reinforce (i.e. prove) all your anecdotal claims.

If this, indeed, is a problem of the magnitude you suggest, there should be thousands of reputable sources and articles available pertaining to consumer VM's (voltmeters) . . . and their negative impact on battery maintenance.
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