First time post! Newbie and advice please :)

[NVGun40]

Let's handle these things one at a time.
Payload refers to the weight your vehicle can carry on its body and suspension. For ease of explanation, let's call this dead weight.
Towing capacity refers to weight your vehicle can pull behind it. Call towing capacity, rolling weight since trailers are usually found on wheels and supported by their own frame.
Tongue weight: since a trailer has much of its weight balanced on its frame, suspension, and axle; there is still a small portion (ideally 12 to 15%) which testers to the front end (the tongue: the a-frame portion that connects to the tow vehicle) the weight at this point has to be supported by the vehicles cargo weight.
Most dealers will install a Weight Distribution Hitch (WDH). These hitch mechanisms are specially designed to help transfer the tongue weight of the trailer along the frame and suspension of the tow vehicle.
What everyone is already considering when we are talking about the weights is the additional weight of propane, batteries, water in the fresh water tank, food, and your personal gear and equipment.
Fresh water tank is just that, it is a tank which you can fill with fresh water and carry on board when camping. If you are camping at a place which has water hook ups, you will not need to fill the fresh water tank.
Grey water tank is all the waste water which goes down the drain from the kitchen sink, bathroom sink, and shower.
Black water tank is the waste water from the toilet.
Refrigerators run on either standard electricity when the trailer is plugged in (often referred to as shore power); or propane, when you are camping and running on the trailers batteries.

One last thing included in the hitch issue is that both trailers you are looking at have braking systems, your dealer will also install a trailer brake module, which activates when you step on your vehicles brakes to assist in stopping both the trailer and the vehicle.


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[NVGun40]

By all means, it is not an impossible venture, it can be intimidating, but just relax, take a breath and take it one step at a time.


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[Subaru297]

Hello Bluejay and welcome to the forum.

You are doing things right in educating yourself before making a purchase. There are many on here that ran all the numbers and bought a trailer only to have to upgrade vehicles soon after. Myself included.
On paper the trailer we wanted and bought was a good match for our truck at the time but real world towing was a different story and we weren't happy and didn't feel safe towing. Our truck had a 7500lb tow rating and the trailer max weight, GVWR, was 7000lbs.

So I will reiterate what everyone has already said. Once you figure out your payload which should be on your tire pressure sticker just next to the one you posted a picture of that will help. But the scale is the best bet. Then you don't have to estimate anything and you have real numbers to work with.

That said you should be looking at trailers around 5000lbs in loaded weight. So 4000 to 4500 empty.

If we assume you have 1400lbs of payload for an example in your loaded case of 3 adults and 3 children.
3 adults ~ 450lbs
3 kids ~ 200lbs?

That is 650lbs of cargo right off the bat. Anything else in the vehicle will reduce that further. Take off another 75lbs for a weight distribution hitch, which you will need as well, and your payload is down to 675 lbs.
1400-650-75=675lbs

A general rule for bumper pull trailers is that you need 10-15% of the total weight as tongue weight. For travel trailers you will usually want a little more like 13-15%.

Using 13% tongue weight and 675lbs available payload your max trailer weight is about 5200lbs. At 15% you are down to 4500lbs max trailer weight. Keep in mind that this puts your TV (tow vehicle) right at its max limit which depending on your tolerance you may not enjoy towing at the limit. Especially if you haven't towed a lot before.

You will need a WDH, weight distribution hitch, as it is a safety feature. What it does is it returns weight back to your front axle that was removed by adding lots of weight behind your rear axle. If you take too much weight off your front axle you will lose steering ability or will experience very light, flighty feeling at the steering wheel. A WDH redistributes some tongue weight to the trailer axles and to the front axle of the tow vehicle.
Having the right amount of tongue weight (13-15%) will reduce chances of sway but a good WDH can also counteract this. So when you look at WDH's look for one that has built in sway control. Or you can add sway control bars to a less expensive hitch.

Some of your other questions.......

You should be able to find a CAT scale nearby or a garbage dump should have a scale they would let you use.

Yes tongue weight gets removed from your available payload. You can probably ignore towing capacity as you will exceed your payload before reaching your tow capacity.

The tongue of the trailer is what you describe above.

The motorized tongue will be referring to an electric tongue jack. This allows you to raise and lower the tongue to attach it to the hitch and to level the trailer when you are unhitched. The other option does the same thing but it will require manual cranking versus holding a button on the electric jack.

For the tanks...Clean water is your fresh water tank. This is water used for drinking, washing, flushing and whatever else you want to do with it.

Grey water is the water that does down your sink and shower drains. Usually soapy water.

Black tank is water that goes down your toilet along with whatever else goes down the toilet.

You can travel with all tanks empty and that would be preferred if you are close to your limits.

One last point is don't look at the brochure or factory tongue weight. It doesn't include a battery or propane tanks or any other weight you add to the trailer. A better estimate is to use the GVWR and multiply that by 13-15% to get the tongue weight.

Hope that helps.
Cheers

[Subaru297]

I think the two trailers you are looking at are probably a bit too heavy to tow comfortably with your TV. Here are a few options that may work better if upgrading your vehicle is not possible.

https://www.jayco.com/products/trave...-feather/x23f/ You would have to pack light with this one.

https://www.jayco.com/products/trave...ather-7/17xfd/

https://www.jayco.com/products/trave...ather-7/19xud/

https://www.jayco.com/products/trave...ather-7/22bhm/

Cheers

[Desert RVers]

Welcome to the forum bluejay! As others have said, you're doing the right thing by reading up and researching before you buy. It might seem daunting at first, but the more you read, the more you will learn. I've been RV'ing a while and I still learn something new pretty much every time I read the posts here on the forum. RV'ing is a lot of fun, but it takes some work to get started safely.
We have a first generation Sequoia and we tow the trailer in my signature. They no longer offer the Murphy bed in the Jay Flight line. Our's has no slides so it helps to keep the weight down. Unloaded, our trailer is right at 5000lbs. There is only 2 of us plus our puppy and we usually travel lightly. We most always stay in RV parks with full hookups, so the water tanks are empty while traveling (except for a few gallons of fresh water for using the bathroom). Our Toyota does a great job pulling the Jayco. We use an Equalizer brand 4-point hitch with built in sway control. We also had to install a brake controller to operate the electric trailer brakes, ours is the Prodigy brand, P2 model number. I wouldn't want to tow anything more than 5000lbs, and if we had 3 kids in the car, I would probably want to max out around 3000 to 4000lbs if that were the case. As others have mentioned here though, you will be cutting it close on total cargo weight in your Toyota. That will equate to less weight "left over" to put a hitch on the rear of your truck. As Subaru297 wrote, a hybrid trailer (has the canvas bed pop-outs) might be the better way to go? Have fun learning and again, welcome to the forum.

[bluejay]

Wow Subaru297 and Desert RVers you are so generous with your time and council. I'm truly gratified by the patience of you all on this forum. It would have been quite easy to have dismissed my questions and ridiculed my ignorance, so I'm even more thankful that you're all not judgmental as so many forums are to noobs such as myself As I imagine is not an entirely new phenomenon, I'm probably thinking much bigger than I can handle re: RV at this point, given my TV. (still getting used to the acronym of TV

So I think I may have found the sticker for the payload. It seems to indicate 1250lbs. I will definitely try to find a scale and weigh the loaded vehicle. I truly appreciate the suggestions for other types of RVs other than the 24MBH and 23BHM that we seem to have our hearts set on! The 22BHM is nice however my better half really likes the slide outs for more room. We are unsure of the hybrid trailer types with the canvas bed pop-outs, we have heard negatives re: leaks, mold, etc. I am sure that this is incorrect information. What might be a top-end recommendation for a lightweight, hybrid model that might give us as many sleeping options as the 24MBH etc?

Knowing myself I am going to try to "push the limits" with weight to get the largest option possible. I am already starting to understand that this will be a very un-intelligent and very dangerous mindset. I am going to have to educate myself to think smaller is better in this case. I do not see a major TV upgrade in our future, we have just invested in timing belt, new suspension and tires for the sequoia and it's in incredible shape with very low mileage, so I want to get the best possible match for that vehicle. Eventually (5yrs) I will perhaps replace my 4runner with a big Tundra so that a 5th wheel may be possible, but while kids are young we want to really enjoy the Sequoia and family camping. We will normally have 4 in the RV but sometimes will have 6. Bunkbeds are a definite must and the murphy bed seems to be really favored by the powers that be

You are all very busy people and so I'm extremely grateful for your guidance and thoughts, the goal here is to make a purchase so that we can get started next spring. I want to be very informed and get the best RV and safest hitch possible. I think that our total budget is going to be 25k when all is said and done. I have no preconceived notions either (apologies in advance!) re: which brands we go with, but Jayco just seems to be the site and product we've found online w/the most support/interest etc. We also looked at Dutchman but there was so much on those sites that we became confused etc

[Baja]

Blue... that's it...1250lbs... Forget the White Hawk...

1250 is considered low concerning payload...And again as has been said...Go weigh the truck...I'd bet anything the 1250 will be even lower...

Since you are just getting into this, you probably don't have all the camping equipment you'll eventually need and want...So the easiest way to get the correct weight is go to the scale alone...Weigh the truck and subtract your body weight from the scale figure, then take that figure and subtract it from the GVWR of the truck... There's the REAL available payload figure...

Jayco Hybrid X23B might work for you... Easily sleeps 6 using the huge U-Shaped dinette dropped down to a bed...Kids may love the Tent feeling...Has a slide and alot of storage...

You say 5 years to a possible truck upgrade? This might be a good time to do the hybrid thing to see how you like it... Then get whatever you want later with the new truck...

When you get the trailer, spend time camping at home...Gives you a good feel for what you need to camp and allows you to get a good feel for how everything in the trailer works...It's fun too!!!!!!

[bluejay]

Thank you so much Baja for your thoughts!!
It seems like the hybrid models may clearly be best for us given our TV.
Paradoxically (makes no sense) I'm feeling disappointed to not be able to have a bigger trailer, when I should be relieved at having a lighter, safer, more appropriate (for our TV) hybrid. Clearly I need to revise my expectations and get a better understanding of how awesome the hybrids (surely) are.
Can any hybrid owners help me to understand the X23F (this is the hybrid we like best if we can even handle the size of that one) and especially my (erroneous) assumptions that the soft-sides are somehow lesser quality/more damage prone, than "hard-sided" slide-outs? Are the soft-sides more prone to leaking/mold and/or less comfortable than bunks/beds, or is this completely false and just innate arrogance looking at (what I ignorantly view as) a more low-end option? Thanks for helping to put me in my place re: hybrids and any thoughts/experiences/recommendations re: this series welcome!
What a great idea to camp at home well prior to actual travel, to get a feeling for what we might need and use.
Finally, (and I know that until I weigh the TV it's impossible to know); could we potentially handle a 23BHM/are we even in the possible ballpark? That's the other floor plan that we really like.
The X23F has an unloaded vehicle weight of 4325, 445 hitch weight, 5995 GVWR. The 23BHM is 4930/hitch 600/5995 GVWR, same as X23F.) As last comparison and still on my mind although I should probably just forget it as you recommend Baja! The 24MBH is 5415 unloaded, 610 hitch, 6750 GVWR).

[Kenelz]

Everyone covered this pretty well. I really agree with getting to a scale. Do a search for "Cat scale", they are all over, and you should have one near you. Its also good to get broke in on the process (which is easy), because you will want to weigh the trailer when you get it.

There are threads on weighing with the trailer, it takes a couple passes. Cat charges around $10 for the first weigh, and a $1 for additional weighs the same day.

I'm not convinced a Hybrid is the way to go if your in an area where you might get extreme cold nights, or hot days. The fabric doesn't insulate.

[Baja]

3 excellent choices...I'm curious what your payload ends up... Please post when you get it...

Here's a thought about 6 people going...Have 3 or 4 travel in a separate vehicle..And load a lot of your equipment in that vehicle... Would save you several hundred pounds of payload... With a WDH you'd be good to go... Maybe even with the White Hawk... Need that payload number!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Camper_bob]

I started out dead set on a hybrid. I like the idea of the fold-out beds and how they add functional space to the package without adding a lot of weight.

Downsides for us (and why we didn't end up choosing one) were that DW wanted hard-sides because she felt more secure in them. I was concerned about some upkeep items (unfounded) regarding keeping the canvas in good shape. And I didn't like the idea of one of us having to climb over the other to get out of bed in the middle of the night (I'm up 3-4 times a night when we're camping usually). We also have found that we camp quite a bit in private campgrounds that tend to be a bit louder than their more remote counterparts like state or national parks. The hard sides are nice for noise isolation. At least part of our camping season includes some really hot summer months, and I think a hybrid would be tough to keep cool on our 100+ degree days.

All that being said, I still think hybrids are a great option. You can get "gizmos" to make the lack of insulation more bearable too. If you're spending most of your time camping in relatively temperate climates (not too hot or too cold), the canvas fold-outs can be a real advantage. Lots of users here have them and love them.

ETA: All this is not to say you can ignore your weights. As you've already discovered, hybrids can weigh as much or more than some of their hard-sided counterparts.

[bluejay]

Thank you Camper Bob, Kenelz and Baja for your continued help!
I weighed my truck today! I did not even know that this scale existed in my region. The weight includes my own weight of 200lbs, they weighed it while I was in the truck! This was a very helpful and excellent learning experience. I would never have known about the importance of knowing these weights w/o all of your help in this forum. Thank you!

At this point I would be very grateful for next steps...given the information I've learned so far I think that we will be shying away from a hybrid as we want to do some winter camping as well and I (and especially my better half) have some of the same reservations as you do Camper Bob re: the soft-sides!

That said, with my scale weight at 5440 (5640 with me in it!) I am not sure how much room we will have to work with our two preferred floor plans, the 23BHM and the 24MBH! Last, I did some digging online last night re: prices and found a company called rvone.com (RVOne Superstores). I requested some quotes and WOW they are coming in about 5k less than local. I would need to pick up in Des Moines however that is doable in 1 day. I would welcome your thoughts as to pricing, whether this is a reputable vendor, whether any of you have driven to pick up an RV in order to save on the costs etc.

Especially, I am grateful for your calculations given my vehicle's weight, with truly many thanks- Blue

[Desert RVers]

Originally Posted by bluejay

I do not see a major TV upgrade in our future, we have just invested in timing belt, new suspension and tires for the sequoia and it's in incredible shape with very low mileage, so I want to get the best possible match for that vehicle. Eventually (5yrs) I will perhaps replace my 4runner with a big Tundra so that a 5th wheel may be possible, but while kids are young we want to really enjoy the Sequoia and family camping. We will normally have 4 in the RV but sometimes will have 6. Bunkbeds are a definite must and the murphy bed seems to be really favored by the powers that be

Hi bluejay! You got me confused now. Is your tow vehicle a 4Runner? Or the bigger Sequoia? Maybe you own both? lol
If it's the Sequoia, then I believe a hybrid would be the best way to go for your situation. The 1250lb payload will really limit your choices. Since we travel without additional passengers, I remove the 3rd row seats to help with the weight situation. In addition, we don't carry extra cargo like bicycles. You'll still need a hitch like the Equalizer brand. There are many other brands out there to choose from. I suggest reading up on them all so you will be better informed about which one you choose. We use the Equalizer 4 point hitch that has the built in sway control and we like it for it's ease of use. Also, the dealer where we bought the trailer installed it for us and adjusted it. We did consider a Pro-Pride and Hensley hitch. But, with those you pay much more for the product, plus I could not find a local shop that would install them. I did not want to tackle installing it myself.
Have a fun time shopping and have a great Thanksgiving!

[bluejay]

thanks so much Desert RVers for your reply! The tow vehicle is the Sequoia, our 4runner (we do own both) will have even less payload/towing capacity than the Sequoia I'm afraid! Yes your calculations match my own, as the vehicle has a listed 6700lbs, with the 5440 weight, resulting in only 1260 left? So, this weight is what I have to work with with all passengers, cargo, and "tongue weight"?

A question: if we put cargo in the trailer, rather than the TV, does this help? For example, will the tongue weight remain (relatively) static based (I'm reaching here) on weight distributing hitches etc, and so is there any advantage to storing cargo in the trailer?

When I am looking at trailers, is the tongue weight what I'm looking to match against the 1260? I had no idea that weight was such a factor but in retrospect I'm stunned by my own blissful ignorance, absolutely thankfully I joined this forum before discovering these realities after splashing for a trailer way above our capacities!!!!

PS DesertRVers I just realized from your sig that you have the exact same vehicle as my TV. I really appreciate your help. Thanks again. After I learn more re: weights I will then start all the learning re: hitches etc, I have zero knowledge about them presently

[norty1]

There are lots of new trucks purchased by people who don't learn the lessons you are learning until after they buy a trailer.

[bluejay]

Thank you Norty1 for your vote of confidence although I continue to be amazed with the calculations that you are all running on your vehicles. Are there any apps that you use to run calculations, input weights, braking distances, acceleration etc? I may need digital help to get everything straight.

It looks like I have a remaining payload of 1260lbs. That's not a lot to work at all I gather, it's probably extremely low. Here are the two trailers we are still interested in and I am perhaps obsessed with trying to make "work". But I have to remember that safety is paramount and if I have to give up on them I am sure we will find other (lighter) options w/o going hybrid.

WhiteHawk 24MBH Unloaded Vehicle Weight 5415 Dry Hitch Weight 610 vs
JAYFEATHER. 23BHM. Unloaded Vehicle Weight (lbs) 4930 Dry Hitch Weight 600

Although there is nearly a 500lb weight increase in the 24MBH over the 23BHM, the hitch weight only increases by 10lbs. How does the unloaded vehicle weight play into payload (or, does this affect total towing capacity instead). Is only the tongue weight being calculated on payload?

My vehicle is "rated" (sounds like a useless measure) according to the manual at 6500lbs towing capacity. But payload seems to be what really matters, obviously I am confused. I found a helpful link here:

There are a lot of variables here. Of the two trailers listed above I'd be grateful for your assessment of (given the best scenario re: hitch [I will not be averse to investing in the best hitch I need and the setup that you all recommend] whether we can handle the 5415/610 of the 24MBH or the 4930/600 of the 23BHM

[Desert RVers]

You are more than welcome bluejay! So the total cargo weight of 1250 is the most you can put in the TV. From that you'll need to deduct the weight of the passengers, gas and gear in the TV. What's left over is the most you can have for tongue weight (and equalizer hitch). Putting the cargo in the trailer will help as long as that weight is not all at the front of the trailer as this would add to the hitch weight. It would be best to put the most weight over where the trailer axles are located. For instance, any sodas, beer, booze or bottled water we carry always gets put under our dinette seats since the dinette is mostly over the axles in our unit. Any food items that are heavy go in the lower cabinets in the kitchen to avoid increasing the center of gravity. Same with the pots and pans. Like you, we recently had the timing belt replaced in the Sequoia as recommended every 9 years. I also had to have the cross member for the trans replaced due to a vibration when shifting gears. It was especially noticeable when towing the trailer. We have owned the truck since new in Sept. 2006 and it too has low mileage of 70k. For a Toyota, that's just broken in!
You may also want to look at other brands besides Jayco. Lance is one brand that comes to mind. They have several smaller units that are light weight. Regarding RV One, many members on here have bought through them. If you do a search you should be able to find several threads on this dealer. You can also get a quote from them and then go shopping at your local dealer to see if they can match the price or come close. Have fun!

[Baja]

I'm shocked you're actually 10 over the stated payload.

Just an FYI. DO NOT make the mistake of thinking that if you put extra weight toward the back of the trailer that you will SAFELY reduce the tongue weight. That is a dangerous uncontrollable sway scenario waiting to happen.

[NVGun40]

Placing your cargo inside your trailer may raise the tongue weight. Depends on where in the trailer the weight is loaded. If you search this forum or YouTube you should be able to find a very good video which shows the importance of weight distribution.
Of course this is assuming you have already based your tongue weight off of the trailers weight and maximum payload. Most of the advice you have already learned from here from the many of us who have replied is basing these recommendations on the fact that there will be a lot of gear and supplies in your trailer. For example, other than water and perishable food, our trailer is loading with everything from socks and bedding up to a small generator at all times. When it is not winterized and time to go camping, we just throw the groceries in, fill the water tank, hook up and go.
Great advice here for you regarding the hybrids though. That all depends on what you are willing to put up with. If you and your family have been tent camping at all, then a hybrid will be very warm and seem quiet and very secure. Yet, the hard side have their advantages.
When it comes to camping in cold weather, then of course hard sides work better, yet again, you have to ask yourself (and your family) what are you willing to put up with. I have camped in all seasons and all variations. I have done the tent trip at 40 below zero, and managed to stay comfortably warm and keep my liquid supplies from freezing.
You have stated you and DW like the slide out for the extra room. A very wise choice. When it comes to sleeping capacity for you and the family, remember, when it comes to the extra room; everyone is not hanging out in the camper all the time. After all if you're going camping to go sit in the trailer the whole time; why even leave home?
This may help you explore more models. There are hard side rigs out there which are within your weight limits and will comfortably sleep everyone you need.
Keep searching.


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[bansai]

One other thought after reading through this thread, if you are new to towing something like this, it might not be a bad idea to rent a travel trailer for a weekend just to see how you do with it. It is more common to see people renting motor homes, but most decent sized cities have travel trailer rentals too. Rent one that has similar weights to what you are considering purchasing. Nothing worse than spending 20K on a camper and realizing you hate towing it... while somewhat rare with the education you are getting here, it still happens. Just my 2 cents... excellent advise in the rest of this thread.. I couldn't possibly add anything. Let us know what you decide to do.