Inverter Major Problem and Complaint

[66lincoln]

One major problem and one complaint.
Inverter: Progressive Dynamics PD1600 with internal automatic transfer switch, purchased from ETrailer.
I'm an experienced electronics technician, so I can easily do AC and DC wiring.
2022 212QBW prewired for inverter from the factory.

Problem:
I installed the inverter and it ran fine and the outlets on the inverter circuit functioned normally; the trailer was not connected to shore power. When I connected the trailer to shore power, the breaker for my garage outlets popped. I reset that and the trailer functions normally on the garage 120V outlet. However, the inverter is now giving an E5 error code of an internal fault that shows no fix for it in the user manual other than to call customer support. No error codes for over or under voltage or over or under current. No fault codes E1, E2, E3, E4 and E6. Just fault code E5 which appears to be equivalent to death.

Has anyone every experienced this? The inverter should have switched over instantly, but I guess it did not. The only breaker in the trailer that was on was the one for the outlets and the main breaker. All other breakers were off. I'm beating my head on the wall laughing from being baffled with no answers. What the h*ll happened?

The wiring was super easy. A #2 wire from the battery to a breaker to the inverter positive DC in. A #2 wire from the battery to the inverter negative DC in. The pre-wired had a tag that said "From Load Center" which is a three-wire of ground, neutral white and hot black to the inverter IN AC port labeled ground, neutral, hot. "To 120V outlets" which is a three-wire of ground, neutral white and hot black to the inverter OUT AC port labeled ground, neutral, hot. I double and triple checked all the connections and all are good.

Complaint:
The pre-wire is worthless. I thought it would at a minimum power both TVs and both outlets next to the bed. Nope. It powers the TV in the bedroom, one outlet at the kitchen sink and one outlet in the bathroom. The TV in the living room, nope, either outlet next to the bed, nope and nope. I installed this inverter to hopefully run just the TV in both rooms and a CPAP machine next to the bed; well that's not happening. The TV in the living room has a 12V DC socket next to it, so I'll just plug in a small portable inverter. I'll install two 12DC sockets on either side of the bed and again use two small portable inverters; one for the TV and one for the CPAP.

[Grumpy]

05OL used to be an overload error.

Edit: OOPS that is for XANTREX. Missed you had a PD INVERTER

[HAL9001]

Originally Posted by 66lincoln

One major problem and one complaint.
Inverter: Progressive Dynamics PD1600 with internal automatic transfer switch, purchased from ETrailer.
I'm an experienced electronics technician, so I can easily do AC and DC wiring.
2022 212QBW prewired for inverter from the factory.

Problem:
I installed the inverter and it ran fine and the outlets on the inverter circuit functioned normally; the trailer was not connected to shore power. When I connected the trailer to shore power, the breaker for my garage outlets popped. I reset that and the trailer functions normally on the garage 120V outlet. However, the inverter is now giving an E5 error code of an internal fault that shows no fix for it in the user manual other than to call customer support. No error codes for over or under voltage or over or under current. No fault codes E1, E2, E3, E4 and E6. Just fault code E5 which appears to be equivalent to death.

Has anyone every experienced this? The inverter should have switched over instantly, but I guess it did not. The only breaker in the trailer that was on was the one for the outlets and the main breaker. All other breakers were off. I'm beating my head on the wall laughing from being baffled with no answers. What the h*ll happened?

The wiring was super easy. A #2 wire from the battery to a breaker to the inverter positive DC in. A #2 wire from the battery to the inverter negative DC in. The pre-wired had a tag that said "From Load Center" which is a three-wire of ground, neutral white and hot black to the inverter IN AC port labeled ground, neutral, hot. "To 120V outlets" which is a three-wire of ground, neutral white and hot black to the inverter OUT AC port labeled ground, neutral, hot. I double and triple checked all the connections and all are good.

Complaint:
The pre-wire is worthless. I thought it would at a minimum power both TVs and both outlets next to the bed. Nope. It powers the TV in the bedroom, one outlet at the kitchen sink and one outlet in the bathroom. The TV in the living room, nope, either outlet next to the bed, nope and nope. I installed this inverter to hopefully run just the TV in both rooms and a CPAP machine next to the bed; well that's not happening. The TV in the living room has a 12V DC socket next to it, so I'll just plug in a small portable inverter. I'll install two 12DC sockets on either side of the bed and again use two small portable inverters; one for the TV and one for the CPAP.

There are a few issues when connecting an inverter that you need to be aware of.

- RVs often have a floating ground. The AC ground wire on a house is tied directly to an earth ground somewhere, usually a rod planted firmly in the ground or to a cold copper wire pipe if it is grounded somewhere. RVs are sitting on insulating rubber wheels, so, unless you're grounded to earth via the shore power cable, which is often not connected when using an inverter, and you didn't connect an earth ground to the RV yourself, then you can have a floating ground. This usually does not cause problems but it can confuse GFI circuits which can trip, or it can confuse a GFI or other safety circuity built into the inverter which can cause it to trip.

- When using an inverter it's vital that shore power and/or generator AC power is fully disconnected and isolated from the inverter. If not, you can damage your inverter and/or cause other serious issues. Generally, the inverter is isolated via an external automatic or manual switchover device. This must always be included when connecting an inverter without an internal transfer switch. An automatic switchover is nice because you don't have to throw a switch. But they often hum and that can be annoying in an RV. I used a simple Universal Rotary Changeover Cam Switch to isolate the inverter. The switch exclusively selects either the inverter or the shore power/generator (which are both connected via the shore power connector). This always ensures that the inverter has full isolation from any other source of AC power.

In your case, you should thoroughly test to ensure your PD1600's internal automatic transfer switch is wired correctly and working properly. I don't prefer an internal transfer switch because it's hard to tell if they're working correctly. Also, if you wired your PD1600 AC OUT into the Jayco pre-wire, you also must also wire the PD1600 AC IN connection to an AC connection that is always powered whenever shore/generator power is connected and active. If the PD1600 ever sees the AC IN line unpowered, it will activate the inverter's AC OUT power. The inverter's AC OUT must never be powered on if the shore/generator power is active.

- Yes, using Jayco's ridiculous inverter pre-wire is virtually worthless as it usually only connects one AC outlet. The proper way to connect an inverter is through the AC Main breaker in the power panel. For a typical inverter, you would simply wire a 10 gauge (for 30 amps service) Romex cable from the inverter to an external manual or automatic Changeover/Isolator Switch. Then, also wire the Shore Power/Generator wiring to the Changeover/Isolator Switch. Then wire the Changeover/Isolator Switch to the AC Main breaker in the panel. Once this is done, the inverter will be properly isolated and able to power all AC outlets and appliances for the RV. Of course, you will always need to stay within the specific inverter's power capabilities. Heavy-duty AC devices such as the air conditioner cannot be used unless the inverter is rated to handle it.

In the case of the PD1600 with the internal transfer switch, I looked at their wiring diagram and I don't like it. They want you to wire the inverter's AC out to a sub-panel completely isolated from all the RV's existing AC circuits. What good is that? Do they expect you to rewire the entire RV with the output from the subpanel? That's impracticable. It's much more practicable to isolate the AC input before the existing Main AC breaker and then select which source of AC powers it via an automatic or manual changeover switch.

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by HAL9001

In the case of the PD1600 with the internal transfer switch, I looked at their wiring diagram and, as an electrical engineer, I don't like it. They want you to wire the inverter's AC out to a sub-panel isolated from all the RV's AC circuits. What good is that? Do they expect you to rewire the entire RV with the output from the subpanel?

I think it is based on the size of the INVERTER. That is how most of the SUPER-C's and Class A's are set up. Our 08 was wired that way using the XANTREX 1800 watt Pro-Sine. I know the 2nd generation SENECA's also come with an INVERTER fed sub-panel.

[HAL9001]

Originally Posted by Grumpy

I think it is based on the size of the INVERTER. That is how most of the SUPER-C's and Class A's are set up. Our 08 was wired that way using the XANTREX 1800 watt Pro-Sine. I know the 2nd generation SENECA's also come with an INVERTER fed sub-panel.

Yes, but this was a question posted specifically on the Travel Trailer section of the forum so I assume the OP has a Travel Trailer with a typical simple power panel with no such sub-panel. He also mentioned that it included the Jayco Travel Trailer inverter pre-wire option which is nothing more than a Romex cable going to some AC outlet with an inverter pre-wire label on it.

So I was reasonably certain that he had no inverter sub-panel as on expensive motor homes.

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by HAL9001

Yes, but this was a question posted specifically on the Travel Trailer section of the forum so I assume the OP has a Travel Trailer with a typical simple power panel with no such sub-panel. He also mentioned that it included the Jayco Travel Trailer inverter pre-wire option which is nothing more than a Romex cable going to some AC outlet with an inverter pre-wire label on it.

So I was reasonably certain that he had no inverter sub-panel as on expensive motor homes.

I think he is trying to power more than JAYCO had in mind with the pre-wire.

You questioned the Inverter instructions for the one he bought, 1600 watts I think. The pre-wire JAYCO provides seems to be set up for 1000/1200 or smaller which would only be 1 circuit , not multiple curcuits that the larger Inverter would supply. Had he bought a smaller wattage, that caveat would not be there.

[66lincoln]

Shouldn't the inverter's auto transfer switch kick in when it sensed shore power in the ckt? There should have been no AC from the load center to the inverter until shore power was connected, so it should have sensed the 0 to 1 signal of shore power connected and instantly disengaged itself; or is my understanding completely off?

Yes, it is the loop of romex that you cut and then attach to the inverter's AC in/out.

I went with the PD1600 as an on sale price put it identical in price to the next lower one. Again, I only expected to have the option of running one of the two tv's at a time and a CPAP, maybe some phone/tablet chargers. Overkill, yes, but the price was fine. I just didn't realize two of the three outlets it powers were of no use to me; kitchen and bathroom.

The tv's are 120V 1A. I tested my cigarette plug style inverter on that tv using the 12V socket in the wall. No problem powering it.

So since I have some nice heavy gauge wiring all ready in place from the destroyed inverter in the storage area under the bed, I'm just going to wire in two 12V 30A connections on either side of the bed. Then I'll just connect two other portable inverters to those to power the bedroom tv and CPAP and chargers.

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by 66lincoln

Shouldn't the inverter's auto transfer switch kick in when it sensed shore power in the ckt? There should have been no AC from the load center to the inverter until shore power was connected, so it should have sensed the 0 to 1 signal of shore power connected and instantly disengaged itself; or is my understanding completely off?

That's what it should do, yes. On my SENECA the circuit left a breaker on the main panel, went to the input side of the Inverter and then the output side went back to the sub-panel, but the reason for the sub panel was it fed not only the TV's but also the Micro with each circuit again having their own breaker. In your case it should be a simple pass through.

Maybe the Inverter is bad and didn't sense the input voltage.

[TomC_AZ]

66lincoln, which specific model of 1600 did you get?

The 1000w (PD1610) can only handle 15amp as pass through: https://www.progressivedyn.com/1600-...ave-inverters/

The 1800 and 2000w (PD 1618 and 1620) can do 30amp as pass through: https://www.progressivedyn.com/1620-...ave-inverters/

If you got the 1000w it is too small for the 30amp you are putting through it. Although if you did the prewire setup that should be off a 15amp breaker so not sure how exactly that works electrically (math wise). I have not researched this inverter so cannot specifically say what exactly the transfer switch will do and how it functions.

The issues you express about the prewire is exactly why I am wiring directly to the shore power plug, into hardware EPO, then into the inverter, then from inverter into the power center. All plugs and AC will have ability to run off inverter/battery. I went with a Xantrex Freedom X model (not one with a charge in it). Using or trying to use a swapped-out power center for the battery charging... that may change :-)

As others mentioned make sure that the ground is up to the front or another actual frame chassis ground. But if its overload it might be the input amps, maybe.

[HAL9001]

Originally Posted by TomC_AZ

66lincoln, which specific model of 1600 did you get?

The 1000w (PD1610) can only handle 15amp as pass through: https://www.progressivedyn.com/1600-...ave-inverters/

The 1800 and 2000w (PD 1618 and 1620) can do 30amp as pass through: https://www.progressivedyn.com/1620-...ave-inverters/

If you got the 1000w it is too small for the 30amp you are putting through it. Although if you did the prewire setup that should be off a 15amp breaker so not sure how exactly that works electrically (math wise). I have not researched this inverter so cannot specifically say what exactly the transfer switch will do and how it functions.

The issues you express about the prewire is exactly why I am wiring directly to the shore power plug, into hardware EPO, then into the inverter, then from inverter into the power center. All plugs and AC will have ability to run off inverter/battery. I went with a Xantrex Freedom X model (not one with a charge in it). Using or trying to use a swapped-out power center for the battery charging... that may change :-)

As others mentioned make sure that the ground is up to the front or another actual frame chassis ground. But if its overload it might be the input amps, maybe.

You can use any inverter with any power rating provided you don't exceed its output power capabilities or somehow wire it into a circuit where you can possibly exceed the ampacity of the wiring.

For example, you can wire a 1000 watt inverter into a 30 amp circuit as long as you don't exceed 1000 watts of total power usage which would work out to 8.33 amps at 120 VAC. You would simply need to be very careful which devices on that circuit you turned on and how many of them are in simultaneous use. You could use a TV and/or a laptop computer, but not a 1500 watt heater for instance. If you exceed the inverter's rated power, it should turn itself off if it's properly designed because in this case, it won't trip the circuit's 30 amp breaker before the inverter is overloaded. So don't expect a circuit breaker to protect the inverter, that's not its job. The job of any circuit breaker is only to protect the circuit's wiring.

You could also wire a 5000 watt inverter into a 30 amp circuit provided it goes through a 30 amp breaker to protect the wiring. It would be a bit of a waste though because a 30 amp circuit can only handle 3600 watts total usage before the breaker would trip. In this case, the circuit breaker would inadvertently protect the inverter from an overload, but again, it's never a circuit breaker's job to protect anything but the circuit's wiring. To use the full 5000 watt capability, you would need to wire it into a 50 amp circuit that can handle 6000 watts at 120VAC.

You must never wire an inverter into any circuit in any way where the output capability of the inverter can exceed the ampacity of the wire without first going through the circuit's breaker to protect the wiring. This is very important.

This is why anyone installing an inverter must know exactly what they're doing and take all electrical factors and inverter specifications into consideration. Inverters can be delicate, you should never exceed their capabilities or expect a circuit breaker to protect them and you must never wire any inverter in such a way where it could damage any circuit's wiring.

[TomC_AZ]

Hal, Well said! 1000% correct its all about the wires not so much the components.

66, I would just call PD today. It looks like it has to be "Manually" reset. Now what exactly that means who know but in all cases it says to call PD for this error so Im sure they will be able to walk you through it. At the very least maybe do an RMA for you. Let us know what happens if you call.

[HAL9001]

Originally Posted by TomC_AZ

Hal, Well said! 1000% correct its all about the wires not so much the components.

66, I would just call PD today. It looks like it has to be "Manually" reset. Now what exactly that means who know but in all cases it says to call PD for this error so Im sure they will be able to walk you through it. At the very least maybe do an RMA for you. Let us know what happens if you call.

Yes, listen to Tom. Never give up on a device before contacting the seller or manufacturer. Some really do stand behind their products. It should have some sort of warranty.

[Learjet]

if we are talking about the inverters internal transfer switch max rating it is about the components. I think, one of the comments above missed that point!

[66lincoln]

PD called me today.
1. Inverter is toast.
2. Appears the issue is I left the load center breaker for the outlets in the On position when I pulled the shore power connection from the RV garage wall outlet.

He said the inverter should power the circuit even with that breaker off. Shore power should be reconnected with the breaker for the outlets off and once shore power is connected then the outlets breaker can be turned on.

Forgetting to follow that procedure created the double loop. Which is not a warranty item. But, I'll need Jayco to confirm if the breaker needed to be on in order for the inverter to have powered the circuit with shore disconnected.

Seems to me this could be deadly for any inverter. For example, you are connected to shore at the RV park and the shore power to the park suddenly goes out. The inverter would then quickly switch in when it sensed no shore power. Then shore power suddenly bounces back (we've all experienced random and brief power outages at home) but because you did not shut off the breaker to the outlets your inverter gets destroyed. I can't see why a system would be wired like that??

Anyways. PD states not a warranty item and must be a problem with the trailer.

Like I said earlier, the inverter only powered three outlets when it was working; one bedroom tv, one kitchen and one bathroom....a waste.

[HAL9001]

Originally Posted by 66lincoln

PD called me today.
1. Inverter is toast.
2. Appears the issue is I left the load center breaker for the outlets in the On position when I pulled the shore power connection from the RV garage wall outlet.

He said the inverter should power the circuit even with that breaker off. Shore power should be reconnected with the breaker for the outlets off and once shore power is connected then the outlets breaker can be turned on.

Forgetting to follow that procedure created the double loop. Which is not a warranty item. But, I'll need Jayco to confirm if the breaker needed to be on in order for the inverter to have powered the circuit with shore disconnected.

Seems to me this could be deadly for any inverter. For example, you are connected to shore at the RV park and the shore power to the park suddenly goes out. The inverter would then quickly switch in when it sensed no shore power. Then shore power suddenly bounces back (we've all experienced random and brief power outages at home) but because you did not shut off the breaker to the outlets your inverter gets destroyed. I can't see why a system would be wired like that??

Anyways. PD states not a warranty item and must be a problem with the trailer.

Like I said earlier, the inverter only powered three outlets when it was working; one bedroom tv, one kitchen and one bathroom....a waste.

It's the job of the automatic or manual transfer switch to protect the inverter. In the case of a manual switch, the inverter will always be isolated. In the case of the automatic switch, it should remove the connection to the inverter well before it reconnects shore power.

If an inverter is wired correctly, you should never need to turn breakers on or off.

[TomC_AZ]

You mentioned this has a transfer switch, how was it wired in exactly? Was the "prewire" wire used or bypassed that in some way?

From the explanation it sounds like it had somehow created a loop but that shouldn't happen if hooked up right. It also sounded like this had a built-in transfer switch. This should detect 120v power on the AC input side and switch the inverter into pass through mode directly to the AC output side. Simultaneously would/should cut the inverting process off at that point no longer generating its own AC. Did it not do this?

If wired correctly I don't see why/how the breaker would ever be involved either other than a surge, but that would just trip the breaker. Which you didn't mention happening.

[66lincoln]

Originally Posted by TomC_AZ

You mentioned this has a transfer switch, how was it wired in exactly? Was the "prewire" wire used or bypassed that in some way?

From the explanation it sounds like it had somehow created a loop but that shouldn't happen if hooked up right. It also sounded like this had a built-in transfer switch. This should detect 120v power on the AC input side and switch the inverter into pass through mode directly to the AC output side. Simultaneously would/should cut the inverting process off at that point no longer generating its own AC. Did it not do this?

If wired correctly I don't see why/how the breaker would ever be involved either other than a surge, but that would just trip the breaker. Which you didn't mention happening.

The pre-wire was used. I've attached pictures of the installation. Note the DC negative wire is red but with black tape bands on it every couple of inches, that's because it was cheaper to buy a single roll of red than two separate rolls. Also, the three orange spring clips on each AC connection are open only because I opened them and pulled back the AC wiring to get a better picture of the wiring. The power WatchDog is connected to the RV Garage outlet shore power.
https://imgur.com/a/ItTcooM

[TomC_AZ]

Looks like a lot of other things still connected to the battery, what all is that?

What happens when you remove the inverter and plug the trailer back into the wall? Do the plugs that should have been behind it work off the converter?

So PD was basically saying that you left a breaker on and that is what fried it? Which breaker are they saying did this? I am assuming that they didn't say you needed to shut the main off on the converter box? Is it the power center battery charge controller? I could see how that might make a loop, but would think/hope the breaker would trip, maybe. Again unfortunately usually breakers and fuses are there to save wires from turning into a glow stick and stop fire, not to save components due to electricity flow, which is what it sounds like happened in this case.

[66lincoln]

Originally Posted by TomC_AZ

Looks like a lot of other things still connected to the battery, what all is that?

What happens when you remove the inverter and plug the trailer back into the wall? Do the plugs that should have been behind it work off the converter?

So PD was basically saying that you left a breaker on and that is what fried it? Which breaker are they saying did this? I am assuming that they didn't say you needed to shut the main off on the converter box? Is it the power center battery charge controller? I could see how that might make a loop, but would think/hope the breaker would trip, maybe. Again unfortunately usually breakers and fuses are there to save wires from turning into a glow stick and stop fire, not to save components due to electricity flow, which is what it sounds like happened in this case.

Answers to your questions:

On the battery:
1. Two jumpers between the dual batteries putting them in parallel.
2. Two primary lines to the load center.
3. Two primary lines to the inverter.
4. Two lines to a connector for the trailer dolly. It's not connected to anything when the trailer dolly is not in use (open circuit) as it terminates at a two pin connector. In this instance the trailer dolly was not connected to the trailer.

My six breakers in the load center and their configuration when the shore power line was plugged into the RV Garage wall outlet:
1. 30A Main (On)
2. refer and 120V outlets (On)
3. Converter (Off)
4. Water heater (Off)
5. Air conditioner (Off)
6. Microwave (Off)

All DC fuses are normal, nothing blew, and everything functions normally.

With the inverter removed, all of the 120V outlets work normally, all electric systems function normally. Converter is normally charging the batteries.

PD Support believes leaving Breaker 2 (refer and outlets on) was the cause. I don't think this was it because if you suffered a power outage at night on the shore power and the inverter kicks on, when shore power is suddenly restored it would destroy the inverter every time for everyone as you had no opportunity to shut off the breaker. After all, that's what the automatic transfer switch should handle.

PD Support basically said that since they don't how the trailer is wired, and since they are blaming the trailer, they are absolved of any warranty work. Of course, they aren't going to send one of their people to verify that there isn't a problem with the trailer.

[MQuick]

Check the transfer switch itself. I had to replace my switch because it was not working properly. It was not full discounting. Went through one inverter before I found the problem.