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Old 10-14-2014, 11:51 AM   #31
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I don't disagree. But we both have different experiences and see this differently. I've done project management for a good many years. Production runs are really just projects when all is said and done. Good project management says you also do the back end as well (post-mortem analysis), and feed that back into the process. Doing only the inspection of processes and controls is like locking the front door of your house but leaving the back door wide open and never checking to see if someone walked in. You're assuming that all is good. It's checks and balances. You miss a lot about the quality of your processes if you don't inspect on the back end, worse you just keep making the same mistakes over and over again.
I don't disagree as long as you do go back all the way to the paper and see if:
1) You asked for the wrong thing
2) You didn't get what you ask for.

We could most likely have a very long conversation (war stories) in this area. Hope we camp close enough to do that one day.
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Old 10-14-2014, 12:16 PM   #32
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So, Doc and Elder, how about a few remarks on what the toable RV industry could/should do to improve their products, understanding you're not going over their books and through their plants.
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Old 10-14-2014, 01:09 PM   #33
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eldermike & DocBrown: Your posts have a more informed view of what is happening because of your backgrounds. Most of us have a more emotional response because we don't have your experience. What we do seem to agree on is quality should be improved.

... quoting eldermike, "If you study the history of manufacturing carefully you will find that outsourcing was the key to improving quality in american manufacturing. Lots of opinions out there but that is the actual bottom line." If that's the case (and I really think you know what you are talking about), why are the answers being found in foreign countries? What did the USA lose, or what did we never have that we have to be told how to build something?
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Old 10-14-2014, 02:13 PM   #34
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eldermike & DocBrown: Your posts have a more informed view of what is happening because of your backgrounds. Most of us have a more emotional response because we don't have your experience. What we do seem to agree on is quality should be improved.

... quoting eldermike, "If you study the history of manufacturing carefully you will find that outsourcing was the key to improving quality in american manufacturing. Lots of opinions out there but that is the actual bottom line." If that's the case (and I really think you know what you are talking about), why are the answers being found in foreign countries? What did the USA lose, or what did we never have that we have to be told how to build something?
Well I think we are improving in manufacturing today, its a curve and we are on the way up in the curve. I hear people talk about labor costs as the reason so much manufacturing has been sent off to China. However that is only part of the answer. It's impossible to keep up with technology in manufacturing to begin with. Look around outside the factory and you can find processes you don't have in-house and these processes allow you to move quickly to changes that consumers demand. Otherwise you turn inward and try and change a long standing culture that's been built up in-house over many years. It's logical it had to go outside.

I think the days of vertical manufacturing are gone. Its much to slow and it builds a momentum against change. It's a force for holding back progress. That is the reason it went out of the country. Molders know how to mold, screw machine houses do better with those processes. If you bring these inside you create a kingdom and the kingdom has power over the progress of the company.

We are getting there in understanding the pace of change and how to setup a company to be light on it's feet. It takes solid engineering and a strong team of indirect labor people such as purchasing and quality engineering. Direct labor has to be fluid, skilled in several areas, willing to move and where it's not then automation comes in. We can't be tied to "this is the way we do it" thinking.

A make/buy decision is a key decision in manufacturing. Do we make this part or buy this part?

I call old manufacturing "grey power" driven. A few bright people make all decisions. The new way is paper driven. It runs on data and documents, it's designed to work and when it fails the design is changed until it works.

I did not say I like the way things are but they are what they are.
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Old 10-14-2014, 02:16 PM   #35
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So, 6 trips in with the new trailer and my back rest for my dinnet has pushed away from the rear of the bench. I can't believe that these were just stapled together. So, from the campsite, went to local Home Depot, $12 worth of brackets and screws and it's fixed. Seriously Jayco, $12 to make this seat bullet proof and you couldn't do it from the factory? I hope the rest of the trailer staples don't start popping out that easy.
It's funny how the people who have had issues are able to fix it right. Some things are just obvious and should have been built that way in the first place. Sure its nice when jayco comes through for us as long as the fix is something that won't happen again six months later. If you can't find a fastener that will work in the partical board maybe use wood only where needed. Maybe use one L bracket where its vulnerable and maybe the other staples will stay together These cabinets and dinnettes are not are not like the prefab desks or tables that we buy and just sit in the corner without any stress put on them. I don't mean to criticize just suggesting a way to improve the quality without to much cost.
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Old 10-16-2014, 12:37 PM   #36
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Everything in life is temporary and that applies to your travel trailers. You have to enjoy them even with their flaws, because you know if there were all built like watches, they would cost twice as much. In my own 2015 trailer, I looked at the way the couch and my murphy bed was constructed and had to think, "that want last long with my heavy body loading it". Still I feel I will have fun with it even with a weak couch. There will always be a better trailer out there that will catch my eye, and maybe I'll have time to buy another and leave the problems in my old one for someone else to fix. If I dont have time, no matter, I have a better home awaiting me in the end.
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Old 10-16-2014, 01:25 PM   #37
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I am glad that I am fairly "handy". When I buy a travel trailer my primary concern is that the structure is strong, the roof is solid, and the appliances are reliable. When it comes to fit and finish I expect at the price point I paid it will probably be mediocre. I expect to do things like change out the fixtures for solid household ones vs. plastic, add hinges to things that are not hinged, add lifts to things that should have had them but don't, upgrade the bed mattress, etc., etc. Those are little jobs I can do myself and I just come to expect to need to do them.

Now, if I was paying top dollar, it would be another story. But, to get what I have for only about $30K I can accept these things. I feel that for the price paid I can't complain too much.

Try investing in a boat. LOL A travel trailer is way more affordable.
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Old 10-16-2014, 01:50 PM   #38
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That's what I said a few times. Unless you are buying a 600K coach (even they can have problems) you can't expect much. Its pays to be handy. "bring it back to the dealer" is not really a choice for me as they are 3 hours away and not worth the gas or time to bring it, and pick it up, to fix and they most likely will do a half ass job anyway. Plus you learn your trailer as you go and can fix stuff better than stock !! I really don't want to see my dealer again until I'm ready to trade it in..
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Old 10-16-2014, 02:01 PM   #39
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I feel the same way.
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Old 10-17-2014, 08:39 AM   #40
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Wow this has turned into a polite, informative and powerful thread. Most of us agree we like the Jayco product line but for sure we feel that Jayco should do better job. Why should we have to repair their mistakes?
Jayco could cut its cost by doing it right at the factory, once and done most of the after delivery repairs could be eliminated.Why does Jayco want to pay thousands of dollars to make repairs after delivery, because it is the accepted practice?Jayco needs to work smart. Their approach to production needs some management and attitude adjustment. I don’t buy into economics influencing work pride and ethics and yes Deming could certainly teach this trailer industry a thing or two.
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