Solars / lithium batteries - first experience

[bono]

Hi All,

First of all, thank you all for your recommendations in relation to the solar setup. Big thanks to Don (Mustang) and Seann for their patience with explaining the stuff for newbie! I followed Seann recommendation and had Solar Mike (in beautiful Slab City) to install the whole system. Great job and reasonable price!

We spent last couple of days in a campground having a chance to test the solar panels (4 x 160W), the lithium batteries (4 x 100Ah) and Magnum 2812 inverter. Need to say that I did not have time to get into details how the things are working… So, we just wanted to confirm how long we would be able to survive in a dry camping. We were using microwave, electric kettle, toaster, milk warmer, etc. I did not pay too much attention how many amps were being pumped into the batteries during the day… until the last day

It turned out that our camping site was prefect… but not for the solar. It was in the shade, tall trees around us. The trailer was cool and pleasant for kids to have naps without any fans, air con, etc. However, around noon, about 2 amps were being pumped into the system – the panels were in total shade. In the afternoon, for 2-4 hours I could get up to 8 amps. With tilting I could get probably twice as much, but I did not take the hardware for tilting from home.

The batteries died by the end of the last day (day 3). Unfortunately, the heater does not work without electricity, so the night was not that pleasant.
Once we took off from the campground and the panels were facing the sun, 30 amps were being pumped.

Take aways:

- We could survive probably twice as much (or more) without heavy using the batteries, even without the solar panels working (which is not that bad)
- I need to consider adding portable panel(s)
- I need to consider adding a small generator to the setup for emergency situations – as much as I love the idea of the solar energy and silence when camping, I need to make sure that e.g. we have the heater operating, so the kids are not cold.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

[Subaru297]

Sounds like a good first test. With a little conservation of power you would probably fair a bit better.

Do your batteries have a BMS attached? What were they run down to? Running down lithium batteries beyond 20% remaining is not good for their lifespan.

Solar is great while you have sun. Trees and shade certainly don't help. We had a nice site with tall trees all around us for 5 nights this summer. The most I saw going into our batteries was 0.9 amps for the 5 days we were there. We were conserving more than usual those days!

Cheers

[bono]

I think I have BMS They went down to 11.60 Vdc. I do not know the capacity they went down, because the monitor showed 100%, which is strange on my list to discuss with elite power (the distributor).

Re lifespan - I understand this is one of approx. 2,000 cycles, so I do not worry that much.

[DanNJanice]

Originally Posted by bono

Hi All,

First of all, thank you all for your recommendations in relation to the solar setup. Big thanks to Don (Mustang) and Seann for their patience with explaining the stuff for newbie! I followed Seann recommendation and had Solar Mike (in beautiful Slab City) to install the whole system. Great job and reasonable price!

We spent last couple of days in a campground having a chance to test the solar panels (4 x 160W), the lithium batteries (4 x 100Ah) and Magnum 2812 inverter.
Seems like a nice system!
Need to say that I did not have time to get into details how the things are working… So, we just wanted to confirm how long we would be able to survive in a dry camping. We were using microwave, electric kettle, toaster, milk warmer, etc. I did not pay too much attention how many amps were being pumped into the batteries during the day… until the last day
You have to always be aware of what is going on with your system, if you are, you will soon realize how much power the various devices will draw.
To me you are attempting to use a lot of high current items to recreate a home experience. Do you really need an electric kettle, milk warmer, microwave? Try a percolator, saucepan and thermometer, and skillet. You will find your power demands drop dramatically.

It turned out that our camping site was prefect… but not for the solar. It was in the shade, tall trees around us. The trailer was cool and pleasant for kids to have naps without any fans, air con, etc. However, around noon, about 2 amps were being pumped into the system – the panels were in total shade. In the afternoon, for 2-4 hours I could get up to 8 amps. With tilting I could get probably twice as much, but I did not take the hardware for tilting from home.
Being able to relocate the panels to maximize sunlight is critical if you are in areas that contain any trees. Doing so can add several hours of good charging to your day, as well as more apps for the time you have. Having portable panels also allows you to park the trailer in the shade (conserves on AC) while placing the panels in the sun.
The batteries died by the end of the last day (day 3). Unfortunately, the heater does not work without electricity, so the night was not that pleasant.
For comparision, my wife and I can go almost indefinitely if the sun is out with 200Watts and 2-12V deep cycles. Admitted, we run everything possible off of propane, have LED lights everywhere, panels are portable, and we never use the AC. Your idea for a generator backup is a good one. You never know when you might get multiple days with no sun at all. I noticed Costco has the champion 2800/3100 watt generator for $699 again. That would allow you to even run the AC if needed.
Once we took off from the campground and the panels were facing the sun, 30 amps were being pumped.

Take aways:

- We could survive probably twice as much (or more) without heavy using the batteries, even without the solar panels working (which is not that bad)
- I need to consider adding portable panel(s)
- I need to consider adding a small generator to the setup for emergency situations – as much as I love the idea of the solar energy and silence when camping, I need to make sure that e.g. we have the heater operating, so the kids are not cold.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

Keep up the good work!

[bansai]

Using the microwave with solar, I'm surprised you made it 3 days. You would need a massive array to power everything you are running. Just to echo what DanNJanice said...

Your system sounds pretty awesome to me, but it isn't sized for that kind of demand. Do you know the power consumption of the devices you listed? They all sound like heavy hitters. For grins, if you wanted, you could find one of the numerous solar sizing calculators out there online and go through the fairly minimal effort with determining what your array and battery bank would really need to look like. You'll likely run out of roof space, but it's a good exercise for establishing expectations. Solar setups like your are hardly cheap. Going to have to use a lot more propane, and a lot fewer toasters and the like. You could probably run all of your lights for 5 hours for what that piece of toast drained out of your system.

[Mustang65]

Originally Posted by bono

Hi All,



Take aways:

- We could survive probably twice as much (or more) without heavy using the batteries, even without the solar panels working (which is not that bad)
- I need to consider adding portable panel(s)
- I need to consider adding a small generator to the setup for emergency situations – as much as I love the idea of the solar energy and silence when camping, I need to make sure that e.g. we have the heater operating, so the kids are not cold.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

A couple things...
- You need to learn how to live A SOLAR LIFESTYLE
- You need to monitor your system CONSTANTLY

As you found out it is not anywhere like staying at a full service site. It is pretty much like driving your TV, you are always monitoring your fuel gauge to see how much farther you can go. If you neglect to constantly check the status of your batteries, well you already know the outcome.

As was mentioned in an earlier post, you need to convert from using electric power for everything. Coffee pots, microwave are both power hogs. A Mr Coffee pot 4 cup uses 800 watts on 110AC.. those 800 watts on a 12VDC system is 66.6 Amps. So that pot runs for 10 minutes of 66.6 Amps. After the 10 minutes it is about 6.6Ah, so if you crank that pot up 5 times in 3 days, you have used about 33Ah, baby bottle warmer about the same and you probably used that more than 5 times in 3 days..... Microwave is about the same load... Add a Tv load for probably 5 hrs a day, and maybe charging your laptop and phones and games... You can figure out how many Ah's you would have saved by using LP to heat up things. You need to monitor the batteries to see if you have enough for the most important item.. heating your TT over night.

When you look at your SOLAR panel output for the outing, you were probably about 30Ah a day (on the high side). So your usage was really up there.

IF you opt not to change to SOLAR LIFESTYLE, you will need to invest in a generator to run a little in the morning and at night... which in your case it may be a good investment. Adding portable panels may be questionable, unless you have access to full sun for them. Angling the panels in the shade will not increase their output very much, if any.

Don

[bono]

I will try to adjust to "SOLAR LIFESTYLE". I would like to avoid using a generator. In relation to the monitoring of the batteries, I really need to contact the distributor as the capacity percentage does not change that often - usually it shows 100%, even with the voltage below 12 Vdc. Can I somehow read the Ah left from the voltage?



Solar Mike told me that I would need to use two portable solar panels, not just one. I don't understand the technical issues behind this, but I believe that he knows what he is saying.

What portable panels you could recommend?

[Mustang65]

If you plan on adding the 2 additional panels, Renogy has a some quality products. You need to remember that if you plan on using the same SOLAR charge controller, the panel voltages need to be within 1% of the current panel voltages... wattage does not matter . If the panels are not the same voltage, you will need to add a new SOLAR charge controller for the new panels.

You will need to talk to talk to the Mfr or Solar Mike regarding how to monitor your batteries as the batteries you installed have different discharge characteristics.

Another issues with lowering battery voltage, is that the inverters are designed for max output 110VAC at 12.6VDC, as the battery voltage hits 12VDC your inverter may only be producing around 100VAC. A lot of electronics do not like being used at a voltage lower than 100 VAC (Tv', Radio's, Laptops.... You will also need to monitor your AC voltage. I am ordering one of the AC voltage monitors below, and will mount it next to my DC voltage monitors.

Don

[Subaru297]

I wouldn't worry about extra panels until you get your current setup figured out and another trip or two under your belt. Portable panels would be a pain in the behind in my opinion and in a shady site they aren't going to do much unless you can get them completely out of the shade.

Get your monitor sorted out. If it always reads 100% capacity it is not setup properly and your installer needs to fix it not sell you more panels.

Good luck with the setup. It sounds like a nice one!

Cheers

[Fire_Instructor]

I've been "solar" for eight seasons now, and the above comments are right on the mark. I still fire up the generator in the morning, for the microwave and the Kuerig. (Wife likes her bacon microwaved.). Other than that, learn to make propane your best friend! I run the fridge and the water heater on propane. All cooking (other than microwave) is propane, and most is outside, so that vent fan use is minimized. I even have a propane-fired crock-pot that I picked up a few years ago.

Another way to be more efficient is in your 12v utilization. Turning 12v into 110v, so that you can plug-in cell phone and camera chargers wastes electricity. Install more 12v plugs in your unit, use 12v car chargers, and avoid the conversion loss. Change all of your switchable lights, inside and out, to LED, if they aren't already. Install an accumulator tank on your water system, so that the pump cycles less, turn the antenna booster off between uses.... Anything to minimize power use.

Finally, I've found that my batteries are often fully recharged by mid-day. That means that my charger is "floating" much of the afternoon, and that there is power that's available, but not fully utilize. Take advantage of this. Use your power during the daylight, when it can still be replenished before dark.

Finally, I find that a lot of campers like to camp in the shade. Shade is our enemy, when you have solar. When making reservations, call the CG by phone and ASK which sites have little or no shade. Few others want those sites, so the CG will be glad to get them rented sooner than later.

Happy Camping!

[Bassdogs]

Its not that I'm against solar but unless you are going to follow the "solar" lifestyle, you will like others have said need a small generator. What was your total investment to purchase and install your solar system? A Honda or Yamaha 2000 can be had for $800-$1000 and you are good to go for less than a gallon of gas per day to keep the batteries charged and that coffee in the am. Most of us seek out shade when we camp. With solar that is a problem or at least minimizes the output of solar. With that small generator that you will need anyway you can pick the best site without worrying about the shade. We found that our favorite CG's are in National Forest and COE properties. These CGs tend to be heavily wooded so again solar if you have it will have to be backed up with that evil generator.

Do as you will, but unless you are at least seasonal and can pick an open campsite, going solo with solar is not the answer.

And then there is that fire thing with lit batteries. 1st it was passenger planes, then pcs, then hoverboards, and now cell phones. Hmmm?

[TommyAjax]

"And then there is that fire thing with lit batteries. 1st it was passenger planes, then pcs, then hoverboards, and now cell phones. Hmmm?"

And gasoline to power the generator isn't flammable? The Carbon Monoxide in the exhaust from the generator isn't dangerous? Don't lead-acid batteries off-gas hydrogen? Everything in today's world has its dangers, the owner/operator just needs to be aware or them and pay attention to them - it isn't set it and forget as Ron Popeil used to say. Key is getting brands that are trusted and focused on quality rather than the cheapest.

Your comment re: the lithium batteries is like saying that "I'm not going to Chicago because I heard somebody got shot there once", or "I'm not going to Yellowstone because a bear attacked someone last year".

The lithium battery issues in the Boeing case was a different composition, as per Wikipedia - "The focus of the review was on the safety of the lithium-ion batteries[1] that use lithium cobalt oxide(LiCoO2) as the positive electrode. These electrodes are known for their thermal runaway hazard and provide oxygen for a fire. The 787 battery contract was signed in 2005,[25] when LiCoO2 batteries were the only type of lithium aerospace battery available, but since then newer and safer[26] types (such as LiFePO4) and LiMn2O4 (Lithium Manganate), which provide less reaction energy during thermal runaway, have become available."

[M&A]

Originally Posted by Mustang65

You will also need to monitor your AC voltage. I am ordering one of the AC voltage monitors below, and will mount it next to my DC voltage monitors.

Don

I got one of those meters for our last trip. Checked it against a true RMS Fluke and it's dead on but you can pop the back and adjust. Pretty fast response - caught a dip to 90V when the AC started on gen ECO (just a test). Backlight is a bit bright at night so might add a push button switch or find some gel.

[Mustang65]

Originally Posted by M&A

I got one of those meters for our last trip. Checked it against a true RMS Fluke and it's dead on but you can pop the back and adjust. Pretty fast response - caught a dip to 90V when the AC started on gen ECO (just a test). Backlight is a bit bright at night so might add a push button switch or find some gel.

Thanks for the update on its performance...

Don

[Bassdogs]

Originally Posted by TommyAjax

"And then there is that fire thing with lit batteries. 1st it was passenger planes, then pcs, then hoverboards, and now cell phones. Hmmm?"

And gasoline to power the generator isn't flammable? The Carbon Monoxide in the exhaust from the generator isn't dangerous? Don't lead-acid batteries off-gas hydrogen? Everything in today's world has its dangers, the owner/operator just needs to be aware or them and pay attention to them - it isn't set it and forget as Ron Popeil used to say. Key is getting brands that are trusted and focused on quality rather than the cheapest.

Your comment re: the lithium batteries is like saying that "I'm not going to Chicago because I heard somebody got shot there once", or "I'm not going to Yellowstone because a bear attacked someone last year".

The lithium battery issues in the Boeing case was a different composition, as per Wikipedia - "The focus of the review was on the safety of the lithium-ion batteries[1] that use lithium cobalt oxide(LiCoO2) as the positive electrode. These electrodes are known for their thermal runaway hazard and provide oxygen for a fire. The 787 battery contract was signed in 2005,[25] when LiCoO2 batteries were the only type of lithium aerospace battery available, but since then newer and safer[26] types (such as LiFePO4) and LiMn2O4 (Lithium Manganate), which provide less reaction energy during thermal runaway, have become available."

Oh please. Small generators are an accepted part of a camping setup by 10's of thousands of Rvers and have been for years. A couple gallons of gas in a calif mandated red container is likewise pretty much in every garage or shed in America. Lith batteries as recently as last week continue to be a problem and Samsung has recalled millions of their top of the line smart phones and airlines have issued warnings about using them on planes because of fire risk. Get over your "old news" stats and admit that lith batteries catching fire have continued to be an issue most recently with hoverboards and now cell phones. I don't stick a can of gas inside my RV or its storage and I'm not putting lith batteries there either.

But the real point I was making is that for all but the total purest, a small generator is needed to augment cloudy days and shaded campsites. I just came off a 7 day outing on our houseboat and used a Honda 2000 to power the boat and to keep the 12v system charged. I have a residential fridge and do not use an inverter to supply 110v power from a large battery bank. My 2 6volt cart batteries power the marine toilets, lights, etc. The Honda was fired up at 7am and ran continuously until 10pm for 7 straight days and it consumed a total of a little over 10 gallons of gas at a cost of $22. I didn't use it but the same generator will power an 8000btu ac unit if necessary,

OK, if your desire is to eliminate the almost undectable sound of a Honda 2000 during most of the day, you can do what ever you accomplish with a solar system and can keep the same battery bank fully charged by only running your generator for a couple hours in the am and the same in the evening AND all the expensive solar stuff can be totally eliminated.

[Mustang65]

Originally Posted by Bassdogs

I just came off a 7 day outing on our houseboat and used a Honda 2000 to power the boat and to keep the 12v system charged.

Nice house boat!!! Best of both worlds!!!

Only kidding....

Don

[bansai]

I'd be very surprised if the OP's batterys didn't contain a BPS of some kind to prevent runaways. All of the ones I've seen marketed for RV's have them. I don't see them as being any more, or less dangerous than the flooded lead acid stuff. And pound for pound, they are awesome, low maintenance, and last longer.

I like the battery tech, I just can't afford them. A group 31 12V 100AH LITHIUM ION RV BATTERY (one of the more common ones) is well over 1000 dollars, yet comes in around 28 pounds. A compareable lead acid battery will run you less than 200 bucks but weighs double. With multiple 6 volt batteries, the weight savings starts to really add up. For a lot of people it comes down to weight with these setups. Otherwise it would be pretty hard to justify the cost. Slightly envious of people that can throw 5 grand into a solar setup and haven't even fully identified their requirements yet. A good Honda / Yamaha generator is a sure thing, has been on my wish list for a while. I'd probably get shot if I tried to use my Cabela's / Champion generator anywhere I camp . Also integrating solar into my setup as a test bed for a much larger grid-intertie system I'm looking at for my home. Gas / Fuel prices are *not* going to be this low for long. Solar is a great hedge against fuel prices tripling in our life times.

[bono]

I spent a bit more than $5k for the solar setup For me the most important thing was to put the batteries inside the trailer. Apart from that we will be camping only in California for the next couple of years (small kids) and the sun it there... Based on the initial test, I am pretty confident that we can survive at least 5 days without charging (we will mostly dry camp, so water will be limiting factor and 5 days should be about max time), but changing the habits. I am ok with that and will report back in November when we will be going for Thanksgiving to Pismo Beach for 5 days.

In emergency situation, I will park the trailer for 5 hours in the sun and we survive next couple of days.

Thanks guys for all help!

[Bassdogs]

Originally Posted by Mustang65

Nice house boat!!! Best of both worlds!!!

Only kidding....

Don

A couple decades ago they actually made barges that were designed to carry a camper out on the lake just as shown in this picture. Clamp downs and an outboard motor and you were good to go. You could rent them at some places. Don't think they caught on and I don't know if they are still available.

Mine is an actual houseboat.

[Russ]

Hi all,
Just wanted to add my two cents on the solar conversation. I am not a complete new be so I have some camping and RV experience under my belt. On the solar issues, we recently purchased a 2016 Precept 31ul, we love it but it was not pre wired for solar, something I knew I wanted! I installed 2 100watt panels with a 30amp mppt charge controller and two 125ah Vtech charge tanks. In my opinion one of the best battries on the market for this use. I installed the system as back up to what the rig came with. I plan on adding at least 1 to 2 more panels and up grade the mppt controller to 40amps. Eventually I would like to install some type of transfer switch between my solar and house battries or better yet install 3 independent 110 volt outlets hard wired directly off my inverter.
I would appreciate any and all feed back and or ideas about this set up.
Thanks to all, happy bring
Russ