What’s the Simplest set up for inverter

[Mad Cow]

Originally Posted by PlayersZ28

This thread went from "simplest" to a full blown install

That is because some would attempt to complicate things more than they need to be. The principle of Occam's Razor seems to not be something they want to apply.

[CampNow]

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

. . . I get more the idea, CN, that from your various posts that you don't agree the setup I mentioned, as you seem more pretty intent on shooting holes in it. Well, that's cool. Then don't do it. I just offered the idea. Folks can pass it over or give it some thought if that is a way they would like to do things. Each of us is seeking individual outcomes.

You came on board here claiming that your inverter installation was "simple, and in so many words, a no-brainer.

IMO, only folks with some electrical background are really in a position to really "pass it over" or decide whether your installation will meet their needs or not. My intent here was to save some folks here the grief of getting into a project that may be over their heads because of your claim it's simple. All I did was offer some better insight into some of the important technical issues you tended to gloss over---so folks can head into a project like this with as much as information as possible. It wasn't particularly my intention to shoot holes in your project.

It's obvious you're proud of your installation, Mad Cow. Don't blame you---from all accounts it sounds like you did a good job.

If you would have presented your project with a bit more empathy towards some of the less technically inclined folks here (i.e., used some kind of disclaimer about the technical nature of the project), I would have stayed on the sidelines.

[Mad Cow]

Originally Posted by CampNow

You came on board here claiming that your inverter installation was "simple, and in so many words, a no-brainer.

IMO, only folks with some electrical background are really in a position to really "pass it over" or decide whether your installation will meet their needs or not. My intent here was to save some folks here the grief of getting into a project that may be over their heads because of your claim it's simple. All I did was offer some better insight into some of the important technical issues you tended to gloss over---so folks can head into a project like this with as much as information as possible. It wasn't particularly my intention to shoot holes in your project.

It's obvious you're proud of your installation, Mad Cow. Don't blame you---from all accounts it sounds like you did a good job.

If you would have presented your project with a bit more empathy towards some of the less technically inclined folks here (i.e., used some kind of disclaimer about the technical nature of the project), I would have stayed on the sidelines.

it is simple, from a conceptual standpoint. I did also state early on it was time consuming. Time consuming does not negate simplicity. It is a no-brainer in that it offers the best overall solution to providing reliable AC power to the coach while on batteries, and reliable multi phase charging of batteries when on shore power or generator. And offers it with automatic switching in the inverter/controller itself. A complete solution in one package.

Actually, I was being considerate of those that are less informed about such things. I did not try to overwhelm anyone with technical concepts via a technical paper style of write up that just cause confusion. But, with any project like this, it is paramount that one do their own research and determine what is needed for their specific application. I just gave the outline. No two applications are identical. But there is a plethora of information available free of charge out there that will offer all the guidance anyone needs regarding specifics.

For those that have a basic understanding of these things, it was just a basic outline they can see. For those less up to speed, it will require them to do a little reading that doesn't require an electrical degree from the local Community College. Just some effort.

[ifallsguy]

I bought a Jensen TV which is native 12vDC. It is useable on ac with an AC-DC power supply. The TV is designed to be used through a 12vDC outlet. Since our 212QBW doesn't have a 12v outlet anywhere nearby, I'm having one installed. It will also power the 12v cord for my cpap. Makes boondocking much easier than having to deal with installing an inverter.

[CampNow]

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

it is simple, from a conceptual standpoint. I did also state early on it was time consuming. Time consuming does not negate simplicity. It is a no-brainer in that it offers the best overall solution to providing reliable AC power to the coach while on batteries, and reliable multi phase charging of batteries when on shore power or generator. And offers it with automatic switching in the inverter/controller itself. A complete solution in one package.

Actually, I was being considerate of those that are less informed about such things. I did not try to overwhelm anyone with technical concepts via a technical paper style of write up that just cause confusion. But, with any project like this, it is paramount that one do their own research and determine what is needed for their specific application. I just gave the outline. No two applications are identical. But there is a plethora of information available free of charge out there that will offer all the guidance anyone needs regarding specifics.

For those that have a basic understanding of these things, it was just a basic outline they can see. For those less up to speed, it will require them to do a little reading that doesn't require an electrical degree from the local Community College. Just some effort.

The above reply lets others better appreciate and understand your definition of a simple project. Thank you, Mad Cow!

[PlayersZ28]

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

That is because some would attempt to complicate things more than they need to be. The principle of Occam's Razor seems to not be something they want to apply.

Well, wasn't yours the "complicate" post? OP hasn't been back to comment, maybe scared away by a whole load of wiring to do when all they wanted was a simple way to run the TV off batteries. Doesn't get any simpler that plugging the shore cord into the inverter with the 110v adapter. Occam's has no bearing, not a hypothetical problem

[ALJO]

The Mad Cow electrical design "simply" doesn't work. But it made a good discussion how not to do it.

[Mad Cow]

Yeah, it doesn't work. Just don't tell that to ones installed and working. Wouldn't want them to know they shouldn't be working. They might form a union and go on strike. I suggest no one else do this also so they don't end up in a nasty labor battle with a striking inverter/charger.

You need to go online to many of the YouTube videos folks have posted on doing similar setups as I mentioned, especially the ones from actual RV dealership shops that show the procedures for doing it. They evidently didn't get the memo either that it wouldn't work. Even Xantrex, the outfit that makes some of the best inverter/chargers didn't get the memo either. They have a video on YouTube about replacing a converter with a inverter/charger unit. RV Four Seasons has a multi video series on doing it also. Even Gene's RV in Mesa, AZ has a video online how to do the job. And I would be remiss if I didn't mention the video from Green Country RV Doctor.

[PlayersZ28]

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

Yeah, it doesn't work. Just don't tell that to ones installed and working. Wouldn't want them to know they shouldn't be working. They might form a union and go on strike. I suggest no one else do this also so they don't end up in a nasty labor battle with a striking inverter/charger.

You need to go online to many of the YouTube videos folks have posted on doing similar setups as I mentioned, especially the ones from actual RV dealership shops that show the procedures for doing it. They evidently didn't get the memo either that it wouldn't work. Even Xantrex, the outfit that makes some of the best inverter/chargers didn't get the memo either. They have a video on YouTube about replacing a converter with a inverter/charger unit. RV Four Seasons has a multi video series on doing it also. Even Gene's RV in Mesa, AZ has a video online how to do the job. And I would be remiss if I didn't mention the video from Green Country RV Doctor.

"doesn't work" is probably the wrong description. It'll work fine. The OP asked for "simple" though which your setup wasn't. My setup isn't "simple" either but it works just fine. Only required a bunch of time to install and a bunch of money.

[nighthawk87]

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

You know, there is a wealth of info online. For a inverter/charger that is putting down 55 amps of charging to the batteries, and within 10 feet, 1/0 gauge cable will work, but 2/0 gauge is more safe. You never want to be too small on 12v cable between inverter/charger and battery(s). You can be larger than needed comfortably. Every retailer that specializes in selling inverters and inverter/chargers have guidance on this.

And for ballpark 18 amps of AC output of a typical 2000w inverter charger, 8 gauge Romex is the better choice, especially in an exterior application like a trailer, and considering the short intervals where there is surge output of nearly twice that. A typical 2000w inverter or inverter/charger will output 3600w to 4000w for a few seconds like during a compressor startup. One could use 6, but that is really more than needed. 10 is not ideal for this, being too light. It could work fine under very light load cycles. 8 gauge sits right in the middle and offers safety.

These things are easily found online. I am not an electrician, nor do I play on on TV. I did manage to get thru all my schooling and college, and do know how to look things up.

I generally order the DC cable length I need and have the loops crimped on as part of the order. That is the beauty of keeping distance between inverter and batteries as close as possible. Keeps the cost down for cable, you know better the actual lengths you need, and you keep amp loss thru the wiring to a minimum.

150 fuse is the most for this application using a 2/0 cable. and the fuse is to be mounted as close to the battery(s) as possible. I usually have it within 6 inches of the battery terminal. The fuse is to protect the wiring, not the inverter or the batteries. So you size the fuse to the size of cable you are using. 12v DC cable can get pretty warm under max power flow.

Much of this remains the same if only using an inverter as opposed to an inverter/charger. Only real difference is that one leaves the stock converter in place to charge batteries on shore power. The main problem, is that an inverter only setup will always have AC outlets on the inverter, deriving power from the batteries 100% of the time. With a inverter/charger, when on shore power or generator, the power is passed thru the inverter charger to the outlets, and therefore there is no scavenging of the batteries and the batteries are charged more quickly. The setup just becomes more complicated using an inverter only. Use of inverter/charger eliminates the stock converter and simplifies the setup. And most inverter/chargers allow for user defined charging amperage so that there can be a better balance between both charging and the use of AC thru the GFCI outlets in the coach.

Where do you purchase your battery cables if I may ask?


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[az.thewolf]

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

It is true, CN, if I was doing multiple applications of this for others that buying cable in bulk and crimping my own connectors would be cheaper on a volume basis But I am not. I probably do this sort of thing every year or two, with quality and the desired results. So the additional cost of having cables at length, ready to drop in, is negligible and worth it.

A similar idea regarding putting a bypass filtration unit on my commercial truck engine. I could have bought all the individual components and built it from scratch and saved a little money. But I opted for a complete kit created for my engine/truck setup. Saved hours of time and eliminated any wasted time that could have been the fault of individual error. And it seems anymore, time is a valuable commodity. I don't mind doing projects, but I don't like to take the Popular Mechanics road and turn it into an adventure.

I get more the idea, CN, that from your various posts that you don't agree the setup I mentioned, as you seem more pretty intent on shooting holes in it. Well, that's cool. Then don't do it. I just offered the idea. Folks can pass it over or give it some thought if that is a way they would like to do things. Each of us is seeking individual outcomes.

I just wanted to say thanks, hate to dredge up an old post like this, but your comments are exactly what I was looking for. I am struggling on the best way to do this. We need to power a CPAP, TV, as well as device chargers for the kids and a few fans. I was not sure the best way to bypass the convertor, as I have a 2000/3000 watt with auto transfer switch. At this point I think the reality is that I need to bite the bullet and just do the inverter/charger. This will simplify the issue and allow me to do what I want. Looking at relay's (contacts) is just getting overwhelming. All I really wanted was to mount an inverter on my battery box and plug in shore power, it is the convertor that throws a wrench in the entire thing.

[muckinfuss]

FYI, I came to an almost identical method of install on my own after some time researching on the internet. Yes, the nits can get overly complex, sine vs half sine etc. but I follow the KISS approach. 2000w half sine inverter from Harbor Frt for 110.00. Took an old jumper cable set and cut my wires to length and soldered the ends (purchased from Lowes) on myself. Purchased an inline breaker from Amazon for cheap. The inverter has three A/C sockets, so I ran two outdoor extension lines bought from Home Depot under the frame and punched them up through the floor under the kitchen sink. Put two sockets in a remodel box and wires one line to each. I only want to watch blue rays and TV if stuck in a Walmart parking lot overnight and make a pot of coffee in the morning. Not interested in running the air or the microwave. I have one 'extra' socket in the inverter sitting idle for the just in case I need it application of a wired electric tool or whatever. Good luck with your project, it's not difficult to connect the dots. BTW, Google will deliver all sorts of tables for electric power vs wire size, DC to A/C watt conversion and so on.

[hankstone]

Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but wouldnt the MOST simple be to connect the inverter to the battery bank, then run a heavy extension cord straight from the inverter (many have one or two 110 outlets) into the trailer and plug in whatever you want to power?