Winter Camping

[ecksdude]

Well it looks like I'm going to be helping out my daughter by taking a trip with her to Wyoming in the trailer for most of a week. This being my first time camping in the winter with a trailer, I have some concerns/questions.

My main concern is freezing. The daytime temps where we will be are in the high 30's, but at night it's well below freezing. The trailer's undercarriage is heated just for such a possibility. I already assume I can't leave water hooked up overnight (if it's even available in the winter months). My thought is that I will fill the fresh water tank on the way out and keep the heat on through the evening (which we'll be doing anyway). Anything else to watch out for?

Propane - how long can I expect 2x40 gallon propane tanks to last while camping in sub 40 degree temperatures? I suppose I can bring an electric space heater, but I think I need to keep the thermostat at a reasonable temperature to ensure that the undercarriage gets it's share of warm air as well?

Lastly, other than these items... what else should I be watching out for?

[tdekeyser1]

Hello fellow Oregonian!

Here is my experience with winter camping:

Yes, water freezes at 32 degrees....but it takes a solid frozen pipe or tank to break. That means it has to freeze solid and that takes a long time, even at 20 degrees. Given your lines, tank and T-connections are all inside the trailer, you have nothing to worry about until you get under 20 degrees outside. (that is camping -with the heat on). You should not travel (tow) in under 30 degrees with it full of water. Plan ahead-watch the weather! My hot water heater is enclosed right next to my fresh water tank, so what I will do is heat the hot water tank before traveling. The heat radiates to the fresh water tank, lines and filters in that section while I am towing it. Keeping it nice and toasty.

The issue is the exposed sewer connections. This is where you have to take caution. Look at where the sewage dump valves are located. Luckily my black tank valve is in the underbelly insulation (giving me to about 25 degrees before I worry about it freezing). The gray dump valve is totally exposed. It will freeze in 30 degrees and possibly break the valve or the plastic pipe.

So what to do: I travel in the heat of the day, get to my campsite well before dark. Setup and place a bucket under the dump valve. I open my gray water valve and leave it open (all night) to dump into the bucket. Thus avoiding water from filing up the pipes and freezing. I don't travel in under 30 degrees....or camp below 20 degrees. These things weren't made for those extremes, unfortunately.

Propane: I use TWICE as much propane when the weather goes from 40 degrees to 25 degrees. It is a BIG load on the furnace (in most trailers). Having 2 tanks works pretty well, because you can "gauge" your usage when the first one runs out. I think you will drain BOTH of them in cold weather over about 8 -10 days. If you have electric hookups, use the space heater for 40% of your heat to conserve propane. Have a backup plan! What if for some reason the propane regulator freezes or breaks? What is your plan B to stay warm?

[ecksdude]

Thanks, those are things I hadn't actually thought of. Sounds like the black and grey water tanks, if used at all, should be dumped every night and then left open over a bucket. And my idea of keeping the tanks full was probably a bad one. I'm just concerned that they may not have the water turned on at the KOA campground during the winter months in Wyoming. I guess I should call them and ask.

And plan B would be an electric space heater and blankets. Fortunately, the trailer has pretty decent insulation, so I don't expect I'll freeze to death in either case so long as I have electricity. I do have 50A service (which my destination campground provides as well), so as long as I don't trip a fuse, all should be good.

Looking at the current weather forecast, it's clear to me we'll have to travel with the trailer winterized. The high today at our destination is 29 degrees, so freezing is inevitable. Perhaps we should bring lots of bottled water and put some anti-freeze in the gray/black tanks and leave the fresh water tank and water lines dry, at least until we reach our destination and can turn on the heat.

Looks like I'll have to winterize before we leave for home as well.

[tdekeyser1]

Winterization is a big effort. I think you might be OK, but you are on the edge of low temps.

I would suggest filling up the fresh water tank and the hot water heater full. Leave the black and grey water tanks empty, but valves closed. It's ok to have the inside lines full of water (water pump too).

45 min before you leave, turn on your hot water heater and let it heat up. Then, turn off the propane and heater and hit the road.

When you get to a rest stop, gas station, or truck stop (you will be stopping I'm sure every 2-4 hrs) Turn on the hot water heater again and repeat the heating. You can even run the furnace at the same time to "heatup" the inside while you eat a snack with your daughter. Then turn everything off and hit the road again.

I believe you will be fine towing in 20 degrees like this. Good luck, have fun!

PS> never leave your black water tank valve open. Always keep closed except for dumping. Grey you can leave open.

[Jagiven]

We do not have an enclose or heated underbelly. We commonly go out when the night time temps are in the low to mid 20s, with above freezing daytime highs. Never been an issue. We keep the FW tank fairly full. Water freezes from the top down. Never had an issue with the waste tanks, and we do nothing for them. I do open a few cabinet doors that have pipes on them to ensure heat gets to them.

We primarily run an electric heater, again no issues.

As for propane, that can be hard to estimate, the size and type of the trailer matters. A PU can go through a 20 pound tank a day. Our htt is really good, we've neve ran a tank dry, but we use the electric if avaliable.

I would guess my parents go well over a week on a 35 pound tank with electric heater.

Two full tanks and you'll be fine

[ecksdude]

Good to know. And good point about stopping at a rest stop and cranking up the heat.

I might be a bit overly worried about this.

[tdekeyser1]

Originally Posted by ecksdude

I might be a bit overly worried about this.

I would be more worried about wet/icy/snowy roads (that's just me). I hope this is an entirely "dry weather" trip?

[Hohenwald48]

There's no reason you can't run the furnace and water heater while traveling. I've done it many times in motorhomes and travel trailers.

[Jagiven]

Personally, I'd drain the water heater, while traveling, then you do no have to be concerned about greezing. Just flip the winterizing valves to isolate it. Or just drain the whole rig while traveling.

[Bob K]

I've considered the technique of adding a gallon or two of winter strength windshield washer fluid (cheaper option) or RV anti-freeze to the black and grey tanks for camping below 32°. Anyone else utilize this technique?

[Jolvi]

Originally Posted by Bob K

I've considered the technique of adding a gallon or two of winter strength windshield washer fluid (cheaper option) or RV anti-freeze to the black and grey tanks for camping below 32°. Anyone else utilize this technique?

Not something I would do as the makeup of the windshield washer fluid is a different makeup and may cause issues with the materials used in RV. The RV antifreeze is good to minus 50 even have some that is good to -75, cost where we are located I can get it for less than 3 dollars a gallon sounds costly compared to washer fluid. I know that the RV antifreeze turns to a slushy never freezes solid which some times people get a little bit iffy about but it works

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by Jolvi

Not something I would do as the makeup of the windshield washer fluid is a different makeup and may cause issues with the materials used in RV.

Especially the dump valve seals.

[Brownie]

If you'll be using an electric space heater to supplement your furnace, I might suggest taking along a very heavy duty extension cord to plug the heater into, then run it outside to the 15A plug on the electric pedestal. (I run my extension cord outside through the corner of my slide-out.) Otherwise, you may trip a breaker if you run the heater while also running your refrigerator and water heater on electric + a coffee maker, toaster, microwave, etc. while making breakfast. Had it happen to me on my first trip in cold weather. Just make sure you use a heavy duty exterior extension cord. I had a cord that was too light-duty and ended up melting the X-cord plug to the heater plug!

Safe Travels!

[CAG]

windshield washer fluid

My bottle of windshield fluid has a great big skull and crossbones on it. I don't think you want the residual of that stuff in your lines.

We often elk hunt at 8000 feet elevations and temps down to near 0 F. I have never had a fresh water tank freeze. Too large a volume to water to freeze unless the temps stay below 32 F for some time. What does freeze is anything hanging below the heated underbelly. Low point drains, fresh water tank drain etc. They freeze back up the line to the T of intersecting lines and stop all water flow. They must be insulated or pushed back up into the underbelly.

If you have an outdoor control panel that controls water/tank it needs to be insulated inside and below to prevent cold air from getting in and freezing the water pump and lines that are usually pretty close to that panel.

Keep heat going to the underbelly or lines will freeze in short order. You can supplement with heaters inside but set the thermostat at a setting to keep heat going. 55 degrees was our usual setting. A Big Buddy heater provided additional heat.

Keep a window cracked to avoid too much condensation.

Obviously, we did not leave black or grey drains open in the forest and I never had a frozen waste tank. Even if it did there was room for expansion. But my tanks were within the heated underbelly.

There are some other tips like leaving cabinet doors open where there are lines and pipes below. That allows warm air to circulate in.

And, finally. This is a fairly common topic that a search of the Internet will find a plethora of threads on the topic from experts living in cold country.

[Bob K]

Originally Posted by Jolvi

Not something I would do as the makeup of the windshield washer fluid is a different makeup and may cause issues with the materials used in RV.

The antifreeze component in both is alcohol of some sort: denatured ethanol, isopropol, isopropanol, or methanol. Most also contain standard surfactants (soap) for cleaning. Windshield washer fluid is also designed not to harm the plastic on cars or the rubber on windshield wipers.

Does anyone have a specific reason why windshield washer antifreeze would be incompatible with RV black or grey tank materials or have firsthand experiences with it damaging components?

I'm not instigating an argument but rather seeking genuine conversation and knowledge. It's good to have multiple, science-based options while on the road.

[Bob K]

Originally Posted by CAG

My bottle of windshield fluid has a great big skull and crossbones on it. I don't think you want the residual of that stuff in your lines.

Thank you for the tips.

Methanol is usually the alcohol used as the antifreeze component in windshield washer fluid. Methanol is poisonous. Folks who use it only put it into black or grey tanks where there is no danger of ingestion.

My FW tank drain is indeed below the belly lining. That gives me an idea about putting another valve in within the FW compartment on my 2015 185RB in order to prevent the exposed drain line from freezing.

[Jolvi]

I am of the opinion that windshield washer fluid being toxic not sure I would use it, I know you would not be using it in the water supply lines but the toxic part is a bit iffy, in my opinion. Also as a side note the windshield washer fluid is only good to -20 and the RV antifreeze is -50 and I have seen it down to -75.

[CAG]

Originally Posted by Jolvi

I am of the opinion that windshield washer fluid being toxic not sure I would use it, I know you would not be using it in the water supply lines but the toxic part is a bit iffy, in my opinion. Also as a side note the windshield washer fluid is only good to -20 and the RV antifreeze is -50 and I have seen it down to -75.

I doubt that you will run into much trouble using it in the grey or black tank. You're certainly not going to be drinking anything from there but then it comes to cost. Which is cheaper? I don't know because except for hunting in the cold I don't have to winterize.

[TCNashville]

RV antifreeze is $2.58 a gallon at WalMart. Use it.

[Bob K]

Originally Posted by Jolvi

I am of the opinion that windshield washer fluid being toxic not sure I would use it, I know you would not be using it in the water supply lines but the toxic part is a bit iffy, in my opinion. Also as a side note the windshield washer fluid is only good to -20 and the RV antifreeze is -50 and I have seen it down to -75.

To frame the issue, I think about the other toxic or potentially toxic chemicals I purposely pour into the black and grey tanks for odor control and to break down waste. I'm not too worried about ingesting those chemicals. RV/Marine antifreeze is a great default and, as you said, has a higher alcohol percentage which protects down to -50° F. Walmart's SuperTech brand is about $2.60 per gallon...only about 70 cents more than the SuperTech windshield washer fluid. It's a great choice when available, especially if I stock up in the off-season.