LiFePO4 Battery Charging

[mass-hole]

I bought a fancy Renogy 170 Ah LiFePO4 battery for my x213 as I boondock 95% of the time and my regular batteries were not cutting it, especially in the cold winter months. My plan is to setup the Renogy battery inside under the bench seats for the table and need a charging solution.

I want to get it hooked up so that I can charge it off of solar, shore power, or from the 12V in my trucks 7 pin while towing and it was not clear to me exactly how this could be achieved in a single charger? Can someone point me in the right direction?

 

[mini4mw]

Single charger, no... or at least not that I have seen.

You need to check the trailer converter (charges batteries from 120v) and see if it supports LiFeP04. Since its older, if its original, it won't do it. Most new RVs in the past 2 years support it or have an add-on/plugin board to support lithium. A new converter I think is ~ $400 if you put it in yourself.

For solar, you need a PWN or MPPT. MPPT is preferred as when it gets extra volts from panels it converts it to higher amps to charge more efficiently. If you have two 12v panels in series so they charge at 24v (really 27v but keeping it simple) a PWN can only charge at 12v and a few amps, extra power is just dropped on the floor. MPPT converts the extra 12v into more amps so you still charge at 12v but at a higher amperage. If you boondock, you will need a MPPT as you will have multiple solar panels.

Then you just need to calculate your amp hours. Fridge, fan, lights (hopefully LED), coffee maker maybe.. then do some math to figure out how much solar you need to charge batteries and run a few items. If you are unsure, go at least 200W for solar. If you have the space and money I'd go with 400W. If there ends up extra power, look at adding another battery. It is discouraged to add another battery to a bank more than 3-6 months after initial use as usage will be off on both and cause them to both wear prematurely. If you do add another battery, you also want to make sure both are starting with the same voltage. You may need to hook up a battery charge to one or the other to get them equal before combining in parallel.

 

[ttavasc]

As mini4mw pointed out you need to check the converter/charger in the trailer to see if it is new enough to support Lithium. If it isn't there are options, depending on what the OEM converter/charger model is, for replacing just the converter/charger portion. Progressive Dynamics has a good quality line of replacement converter/chargers, or entire power centers if needed that support Lithium.

As for Solar and Tow Vehicle charging, Redarc Electronics makes a line of dual input Solar/DC-DC chargers that includes a MPPT Solar charge controller as well as a DC-DC charge controller and supports Lithium. In order to get the higher amps out of the Tow Vehicle connection you probably want to run a dedicated heavy gauge wire run instead of the smaller gauge wire on the 7-pin. One caveat on the Redarc devices is the input voltage tops out at 32V which may be a problem if you want to run your Solar panels in series. I regularly see volts top 40 on my 200 watt portable which consists of 2 x 100 watt Renogy 12v panels in series.

I opted to go with a dedicated set of controllers for the portable solar and improved tow vehicle charging. An MPPT solar controller (Victron Energy 100/20) for the portable and a separate DC-DC controller (Victron Energy Orion-TR Smart 12/30) with larger gauge wire run on the tow vehicle side.

 

[mass-hole]

Single charger, no... or at least not that I have seen.

You need to check the trailer converter (charges batteries from 120v) and see if it supports LiFeP04. Since its older, if its original, it won't do it. Most new RVs in the past 2 years support it or have an add-on/plugin board to support lithium. A new converter I think is ~ $400 if you put it in yourself.

For solar, you need a PWN or MPPT. MPPT is preferred as when it gets extra volts from panels it converts it to higher amps to charge more efficiently. If you have two 12v panels in series so they charge at 24v (really 27v but keeping it simple) a PWN can only charge at 12v and a few amps, extra power is just dropped on the floor. MPPT converts the extra 12v into more amps so you still charge at 12v but at a higher amperage. If you boondock, you will need a MPPT as you will have multiple solar panels.

Then you just need to calculate your amp hours. Fridge, fan, lights (hopefully LED), coffee maker maybe.. then do some math to figure out how much solar you need to charge batteries and run a few items. If you are unsure, go at least 200W for solar. If you have the space and money I'd go with 400W. If there ends up extra power, look at adding another battery. It is discouraged to add another battery to a bank more than 3-6 months after initial use as usage will be off on both and cause them to both wear prematurely. If you do add another battery, you also want to make sure both are starting with the same voltage. You may need to hook up a battery charge to one or the other to get them equal before combining in parallel.

Couldn't I just install one of those permanent mounted Battery Tenders like one of these for the shore power charging?

https://www.batterytender.com/Batte...able-Chemistry-Weatherproof-Battery-Charger_3

 

[ttavasc]

Are you intending to use the Lithium battery to replace the existing batteries or somehow supplement the existing batteries? If supplement, how do you plan on connecting them into the existing 12v system? The Battery Tender you linked to isn't going to provide much charging capability for that large of a battery. If it's deeply discharged it will take quite a long time to recharge.

 

[pconroy]

Couldn't I just install one of those permanent mounted Battery Tenders like one of these for the shore power charging?

https://www.batterytender.com/Batte...able-Chemistry-Weatherproof-Battery-Charger_3

That's 2.5A. It'd take a loooooooooooooooooooooong time to recharge a battery.


One thing I've concluded - putting a Lithium system in a coach that wasn't designed for it originally will be expensive.


As others have pointed out, the converter, the MPPT/PWM solar charge controller, the alternator, the wire gauge, the size of the relays, fuses -- all will need to be researched whether they'll work or need to be replaced.

 

[mass-hole]

That's 2.5A. It'd take a loooooooooooooooooooooong time to recharge a battery.


One thing I've concluded - putting a Lithium system in a coach that wasn't designed for it originally will be expensive.


As others have pointed out, the converter, the MPPT/PWM solar charge controller, the alternator, the wire gauge, the size of the relays, fuses -- all will need to be researched whether they'll work or need to be replaced.

Are you intending to use the Lithium battery to replace the existing batteries or somehow supplement the existing batteries? If supplement, how do you plan on connecting them into the existing 12v system? The Battery Tender you linked to isn't going to provide much charging capability for that large of a battery. If it's deeply discharged it will take quite a long time to recharge.

Replace. I mainly wanted to get the battery inside, out of the cold so the LiFePO4 was the only good solution there besides vented battery boxes. My regular batteries were usually fine unless it was really cold at night. Then after a night or two, the batteries would start to crap out and barely run my heater fan.

The heater is really my main power draw. Everything else is gas and I have dual 40 lb tanks.

As far as the charge rate, wouldn’t expect I would be rolling up to a campground with a fully discharged battery and then hooking up to shore power. I would have just towed from my house where the battery was fully charged. I was thinking more just to keep it floated. But i guess it could be an issue

 

[mini4mw]

remember LiFeP04 won't charge under 32F. The built in BMS should disable charging. You mentioned they are inside, but just in case. There are little 12v warmer pads you can use to prevent the issue as well.

There are so many ways to go and it really just comes down to how you camp, where you camp and what you want to run.

Solar doesn't generate as much power in cold weather due to angle of the sun. If you have enough panels you'll be fine assuming you have enough battery to hold the charge/power use at night and a cloudy day.

DC-DC charger from vehicle will be good for quick charges. Using right cable size and proper alternator may be all you need, but an extra battery in the RV may be helpful.

Small Honda EU2000 may be great as well. Light, quiet and can always add/daisy chain another if you wanted AC or more power.

 

[mass-hole]

Thanks everyone for the responses.

So it looks like I have the Progressive Dynamics PD4045KA power distribution panel in my trailer. I don't believe this one is setup to charge LiFEPO4 batteries but it looks like I can just buy a new converter(PD4045LICSV) without having to pull the whole unit out.

Although I am getting some slightly conflicting info. The current unit on PD's webiste is the PD4045KV which they say can charge lithium batteries and has an output mode switch for Lithium or Lead-Acid. Then I go to e-trailer and they are saying that the PD4045KA and PD4045KV are the same thing but with alternate part numbers.

 

[ttavasc]

Thanks everyone for the responses.

So it looks like I have the Progressive Dynamics PD4045KA power distribution panel in my trailer. I don't believe this one is setup to charge LiFEPO4 batteries but it looks like I can just buy a new converter(PD4045LICSV) without having to pull the whole unit out.

Although I am getting some slightly conflicting info. The current unit on PD's webiste is the PD4045KV which they say can charge lithium batteries and has an output mode switch for Lithium or Lead-Acid. Then I go to e-trailer and they are saying that the PD4045KA and PD4045KV are the same thing but with alternate part numbers.

If you don't want or need to retain the ability to charge lead acid batteries I would just get the new PD4045LICSV converter. Looking at the details on Progressive Dynamics web site it looks like to get the optional Lithium/Lead Acid switch on the converter you'd need to get the entire power center with part number PD4045KV. I'd contact Progressive Dynamics directly with the specifics to get an accurate answer.

 

[mass-hole]

If you don't want or need to retain the ability to charge lead acid batteries I would just get the new PD4045LICSV converter. Looking at the details on Progressive Dynamics web site it looks like to get the optional Lithium/Lead Acid switch on the converter you'd need to get the entire power center with part number PD4045KV. I'd contact Progressive Dynamics directly with the specifics to get an accurate answer.

Thats what I did end up going with.

Did you going with the isolated or non-isolated Orion-TR Smart charger? Would the trailer and truck be a common ground when they are hitched together? Just looking at it it seems like the Isolated one would be the way to go but maybe I am missing something.

 

[ttavasc]

Thats what I did end up going with.

Did you going with the isolated or non-isolated Orion-TR Smart charger? Would the trailer and truck be a common ground when they are hitched together? Just looking at it it seems like the Isolated one would be the way to go but maybe I am missing something.

I went with the isolated Orion-TR Smart. It was about $40 more than the non-isolated model but for my usage I wanted to keep both sides isolated to their own ground.

 

[mass-hole]

So just an update, I got an email back from PD and this is what they said:

Our newest version of the PD4045CSV has the lithium switch

The PD4045LICSV is for lithium batteries only.

To get the most up to date version of the PD4045CSV, we suggest purchasing from Leisure Time Dist.

https://ltdrvparts.com/PROGRESSIVE-DYNAMICS-LITHIUM-CAPABLE-CONVERTER-SECTION-PD4045CSV-PD4045CSV.htm

you can purchase elsewhere, just make sure you check to make sure the switch is on the board….this way, someone won’t try to sell you an older version without the switch

please let me know If you need further help

The PD4045CSV is cheaper than I could find the 4045LICSV so I am probably going to try and cancel my order and get the CSV version wtih the switch. Save a few $ and get the ability to switch between batteries if I need to.

I ended up paying $171 shipped vs the 4045LICSV for $238

 

[Bob K2]

Couldn't I just install one of those permanent mounted Battery Tenders like one of these for the shore power charging?

https://www.batterytender.com/Batte...able-Chemistry-Weatherproof-Battery-Charger_3

My trailer's power distribution center, a WFCO 8375, is not rated for lithium batts. While it will put some power into my lithium batts, it's inconsistent. To get around this, I wired up a port so that I could used a Victron BlueSmart charger while on shore power. I may upgrade my onboard converter at some point in the future but for now the Victron lithium charger works great.

https://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/...baja-repairs-and-upgrades-75556-2.html#post90



Edit: I see that you're upgrading your PDC. Let us know how it goes!

 

[videoarizona]

Watch this... Lots of good info.

https://youtu.be/NPGw9vI5jDI

 

[mass-hole]

Here is the up-to-date 4045csv with the Li/La battery

 

[mass-hole]

New LI/LA switchable converter is in. Easy swap, 5 wires and 2 screws and it slides right out and the new one slides right in.

 

[mass-hole]

Maybe a dumb question but wanted to be sure before I started cutting and splicing wires.

Would they have grounded the negative battery terminal on the power converter to the frame in the rear, and then grounded the battery to the frame up in front? Thats what it looks like to me, but wanted to be sure.

 

[mass-hole]

The battery is in and wired up. The PD converter seem to be doing its job and feeding the battery with 14.4V. Its not the prettiest setup but it works and the battery is only 3’ from my power distribution panel, not 25’ like before, so that is nice.

The last thing i need to do is wire up a charging solution from my truck. Eventually, I will do a solar setup but not sure I need to yet.