Solar with lithium batteries

KA

kanarek

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2015
Posts
776
Hi Guys,

I am making plans in relation to the solar system I would like to have on my 28DSBH (I will order when 2017 model is on the market).

Objectives:

- not to use generator – we will be mostly boondocking, 90% in California,
- to use solar panels to recharge batteries,
- batteries will need to be in the trailer (need to reduce tongue weight),
- if possible, to run AC for a limited time – two toddlers may need to take a nap during a warm day, 1-2 hours of AC would be great. But I think we will survive without AC.

I do not know a lot about solar system / electrical systems. From my research it results that I would need to buy:

- solar panels: question is how many W? I want to have additional power on the roof and not to be restricted. I would start with 4x100W or 4x160W from AM Solar.
- batteries: lithium 300-400Ah
- Magnum MS-2800 Inverter
- Morningstar TriStar 60 MPPT controller

What do you think about it? What else I would need to buy for this setup?

If running AC from lithium batteries is feasible (I am reading that it is), should I get the smaller AC 13500 BTU or upgrade to 15000 BTU when ordering a new trailer?

What kind of wires do you recommend? I read that this is pretty important part of the system. I will not be installing this by myself, but I do not like to rely on installers and what they suggest / trying to sell.

Would you recommend buying a ready to install kit from e.g. AM Solar (which is just reseller, but they have custom made panels) or just to buy everything from different sources, what can result in some savings?

Do you have any place you can recommend in the SF Bay Area to install the system? How long should it take? Is it a one day job or three days?

Thanks!
 
I read these articles before. I am not sure if they are saying that I can't use AC for a 1-2 hours with lithium batteries. There are other articles on this topic online and based on what I read, it is possible. But as I said, running AC would not be must condition.
 
Bono I have 3 roof vents and all 3 now have Fantastic Fans mounted in them.. by keeping the windows on the shaded side of RV open and running the fans I can keep it nice in the RV even on 90+ California days.
 
buy a generator and use it sparingly as needed. Lets say your set up will run your AC for 2 hours [and I doubt it], then what? Your batteries will be drained and will need to be recharged for the evening use. Solar would have to do a quick recharge which likely would take longer than the remaining sunlite will deliver.

What is your real motive here? I will admit that I am not a solar advocate, but realize it can be a viable alt power generator in the right situations. What most do not understand, is that to get a solar system powerful enough to meet an all solar set-up, and in your case A/C, you will need a lot of solar and a huge battery bank to store the power. The cost is great for such a set up as is the weight of the batteries. You are not going to accomplish your goal with a couple batteries. You might want to do a good solar system and back it up with a small generator like a Yahama or Honda to handle 100% of your needs.
 
What is your reason for wanting to go with Lithium batteries. They cost a $$$ more, they need special charging and they are temperature sensitive.

Don
 
Thank you Guys!

Generator is not an option – I just do not like generators.

Seann45 – thanks for this suggestion. I believe you mentioned this solution earlier and I have this in my mind.

Mustang65 – I will need to relocate the batteries to the trailer anyway. I was thinking about AGMs, which are a good solution (I hope), but deep cycle AGM cost as well.

I am doing the solar setup from the scratch. I am big fan of doing right things from the beginning without the need to change things down the road. Even if my further research proves that I can’t use AC (for a short period of time), I think I will go with 200 Ah lithium batteries and maybe smaller solar.

Thanks!
 
bono said:
Mustang65 – I will need to relocate the batteries to the trailer anyway. I was thinking about AGMs, which are a good solution (I hope), but deep cycle AGM cost as well.
Click to expand...

How many batteries are you planning on installing, that you need to relocate them (weight)? Even if you go with SOLAR, and if you do not install enough SOLAR panels (to cover 2 or 3 days of cloud cover), you will need a secondary charging source. I never recommend that someone with no SOLAR or dry-camping experience (battery usage) dump a lot of money into batteries, because you will kill them the first time around. It is better to learn ALL you need to know by abusing inexpensive batteries... after the first or second year switch over. By then you will know if you need to add more SOLAR, Ah's or both. The first time around is a learning experience.

You can get a little more SOLAR setup info here on our Social Group "RVing with SOLAR"

Don
 
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We are light electricity users in general. It is only about the toddlers / kids and their needs where I see potentially higher power consumption. I would like to build a system with some power margin. One of the reasons is that I would like to use 30% solar tax credit, so it makes sense to invest more now into lithium batteries than later.

As I mentioned, I am planning to install at least 200Ah lithium inside the trailer. If it would be OK to run AC with 300-400Ah, I would go for it. Just trying to learn for people who know more than I do. I am not afraid about abusing batteries. I always care about my things :)
 
bono said:
We are light electricity users in general. It is only about the toddlers / kids and their needs where I see potentially higher power consumption. I would like to build a system with some power margin. One of the reasons is that I would like to use 30% solar tax credit, so it makes sense to invest more now into lithium batteries than later.

As I mentioned, I am planning to install at least 200Ah lithium inside the trailer. If it would be OK to run AC with 300-400Ah, I would go for it. Just trying to learn for people who know more than I do. I am not afraid about abusing batteries. I always care about my things :)
Click to expand...

400Ah is not going to get you very much AC and the backside of that is your batteries will be drained considerably for any night time use. The RV AC can draw 16 amps when the compressor is running and depending on how long it stays running that equates to 16 amps @ 110VAC = 1760 watts, now convert that to 12VDC (1760 Watts / 12VDC = 146 amps of power being drawn from your batteries (by your inverter) while the compressor is running. If the outside temp is around 90, you can bank on the AC running for at least 30 - 40 minutes an hour as TT are not well insulated and if the windows are facing the sun they generate over 100 degrees of radiant heat into the TT (hint window awnings are well worth their $$). Well you can do the math, that is not good for the batteries. Constantly doing a fast drain on deep cycle batteries will shorten their life, they are designed for a slow long term drain, unlike car batteries.

There is not enough room on the roof of your TT full of SOLAR panels to keep your AC running.. For AC there is no way around a generator... or is there another posibility... Ahhhh but wait... being that it is dry heat in CA, you are a prime candidate for a SWAMP COOLER.. yes they do work in a dry climate.. down here in FL they would be totally useless (HUMIDITY). Look into it. DIY TV had a program on them about a year ago (a home made one from scratch) and had fantastic results with it. Look into buying or making one. Now SOLAR can handle the swamp cooler fan with no issues at all. Being in CA it will be WELL WORTH THE RESEARCH!!!

I would recommend using GridTie Panels (high voltage) as they start producing usable power a lot sooner that the lower voltage panels. I would not look at anything less than 500 to 800 Watts of SOLAR (min) to start with, but plan for future panels and batteries. Mornignstar is a good MPPT controller, but there are others out there. Just stay away from the Chinese cheap products, you get what you pay for.

Just my thoughts,

Don
 
Suspect the no generator thing has something to do with saving the environment, so NO GENERATOR it is. Put simply you are wanting 10 [maybe even 15 lbs] of stuff in a 5 lb bag. Like others have said, going solar as a rookie is a learning experience and expecting what you are expecting is not a realistic place to start. You will need lots of batteries to store the power that the solar generates. They will cost and weigh a whole lot. In addition were are you going to put 4 or 6 batteries inside your rv??

Maybe you just need to start with "hook-ups" and a basic solar array/system. No offense but thing you are really trying to bite off more than you are ready to chew.
 
Don - many thanks!

Bassdogs - no generator on my list, for sure. It is not about the environment. I just do not like when people are using generators on the campgrounds and I am not planning to be one of them. No offence to anybody!

I really appreciate all comments from you guys. The setup with batteries and AC is probably not something I should start with. However, I have a hard time to understand why a good setup of solar with batteries (good components / installed by somebody who knows what he is doing) would not be a good place to start?

Weight? Size of the batteries? With lithium that should not be a problem. I was thinking about putting them under the bunk bed in 28DSBH.
 
I have some information on this topic that might help with your decision:

- Lithium-ion, and Lithium-cobalt oxide CELLS need a special "brain" for them to "act" like a lead-acid battery when charging. This is very important for your decision. The "brain" will be a small set of chips that will control the charging of it, protection of it (over voltage), and monitor/control the discharge rate of the SET of lithium cells - which makes up a 'battery'. This brain may not allow you to discharge past 16AMPS, charge past 12AMPS. (check this carefully).

- This "brain" will allow charging with solar, DC12V, trickle charger, and a AC converter...no problem. The PROBLEM will be when you hook it up to a LEAD ACID battery that is tied into your system. Maybe the charge line from the Tow Vehicle? What about the house (RV) lead acid batteries? They cannot be mixed. The BRAIN will freak out and SHUT DOWN the Lithium batteries (because it senses damage about to occur). That means you CAN'T charge it with your truck or RV engine (any vehicle alternator).

- Lithium batteries (of this type) cost about $2000-$2500 for 200AH of battery.

- If you want A/C and solar, buy an Earth Roamer. :)
 
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I have an AM solar system on my 2015 26BHS. In fact, this is my second system from AM Solar. I sold the last system with my last trailer...a 2000 Jayco Qwest 26BH! The wiring AM Solar provides is perfect. I would recommend getting one of their signature system cores. You really want the IPN Pro monitor. Without a monitor, a solar system is worthless (IMHO). On my current trailer, I have two of the 160 watt panels. I paired this with the Blue Sky 25amp controller and two 6 volt batteries. I can use my lights, pump and furnace at night. I will be down to around 75% battery charge in the morning when I wake up and usually recharged by 12pm even if cloudy or have some shading from trees. I would forget AC on batteries...the suggestion of fantastic fans is a good one. One more note is that installation is not too difficult. It took me one full day. Best of luck and let me know if you have any questions.
 
ddrueckh said:
I have an AM solar system on my 2015 26BHS. In fact, this is my second system from AM Solar. I sold the last system with my last trailer...a 2000 Jayco Qwest 26BH! The wiring AM Solar provides is perfect. I would recommend getting one of their signature system cores. You really want the IPN Pro monitor. Without a monitor, a solar system is worthless (IMHO). On my current trailer, I have two of the 160 watt panels. I paired this with the Blue Sky 25amp controller and two 6 volt batteries. I can use my lights, pump and furnace at night. I will be down to around 75% battery charge in the morning when I wake up and usually recharged by 12pm even if cloudy or have some shading from trees. I would forget AC on batteries...the suggestion of fantastic fans is a good one. One more note is that installation is not too difficult. It took me one full day. Best of luck and let me know if you have any questions.
Click to expand...

Sounds like good advice from someone with experience. I'd listen to him if I were you and forget the a/c. Its pretty difficult to boondock anywhere close to others without some generator chatter. I'd be one of them but my use would be in the am when I fire up the coffee maker and run it for a couple or 3 hours to recharge the batteries. Then again for an hour or 2 going into the evening. At sundown or so the genny is off and I'm running on the inverter to power up the tv/sat system for the rest of the evening. My twin 6volts do very well and will run the above along with lights, and the furnace fan if needed with plenty of charge left in the am.

Good luck with your solar and happy camping.
 
Hey Guys,

I just received a quote from an installer. 33 hours to install: 4 solar panels, controller, lithium battery. Installation of inverter is optional: additional 20 hours.

This kind of job is outside of my expertise. What do you think about the estimation of the time required to complete installation? To be honest, it sounds on a high end for me...
 
What type of controller are they installing as Lithium batteries take a SPECIAL unit for charging. Get the make/model and research it.

Is the installer a licensed Electrician? Is the company one that installs SOLAR on RV's? How many systems have they installed. Can you research them? Get referrals?

The total hours seems rather high for the amount of work. The mounting and hooking up the inverter should only take 3 or 4 hours total, at the most. Installing and wiring the panels does not take much time and should take a lot less than the number of hours listed.

I would recommend getting another quote if at all possible.

Stay away from installers that do not have solar installation experience.
Don
 
bono said:
Hey Guys,

I just received a quote from an installer. 33 hours to install: 4 solar panels, controller, lithium battery. Installation of inverter is optional: additional 20 hours.

This kind of job is outside of my expertise. What do you think about the estimation of the time required to complete installation? To be honest, it sounds on a high end for me...
Click to expand...

55 hours???? holy poop batman he is ripping you off... Try contacting Solar Mike at www.thesunworks.com he is here in "beautiful" Niland California did my install in less than one day (4 panels, charge controller, 2000 watt whole house inverter 6 golf cart batteries) He sells and installs great systems at a very reasonable price... tell him you were talking to Seann... if you need I can get you his phone numer
 
Thanks Guys!

The suggested controller is Signature 40/MPPT/4 solar controller core from AM Solar offering. This is licensed electrician, recommended by many Air Stream owners and also one of the AM Solar recommended installers.

I will at least get other quotes, just to compare.

Thank you again!
 
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