Help - No 12V Power

Griswald One · 05-21-2017, 06:48 AM

Morning All, Yesterday my Xantrex Inverter/Converter started throwing an error code E05. I shut everything down, disconnected and reconnected the shore power and everything seemed to be good.

This morning I woke up to the alarm going off again, this time at a faster pace. I again shut it all down, starting with the master switch. I know have no 12v power at all. When I hit the master power switch all I get is a loud thunk under the floor.

Any help you can give me is appreciated... I am guessing at this point I am very stranded with all my slides, awning and levelers deployed!!!

Griswald One · 05-21-2017, 08:02 AM

Anyone?

WorldCat · 05-21-2017, 08:14 AM

Sorry, I don't have one but sympathize with your problem.
Have you tried starting up the coach and see if you can move the slides?

Fire_Instructor · 05-21-2017, 08:19 AM

E05 is an overload error code. Is there something BIG turned on that you aren't aware of, that could be tripping to out? I'm thinking aN A/C unit, or some other big draw? (Im my batteries aren't at 100%, I often get an overload trip from my microwave!

hoppers4 · 05-21-2017, 08:38 AM

Like Fire Instructor said, the error code is an overload. And like you did, the only way to reset the error is to disconnect shore power.

If you're on shore power, your inverter should be disabled. I'm guessing you lost shore power at some point (maybe briefly) and the error code was generated.

Loss of 12VDC is a different problem. The thunking you're hearing when you cycle the 12VDC disconnect switch is the relay that controls this 12VDC. If you hold this switch too long (apparently over 1 second), then this relay has to be reset by disconnecting the house battery for 1 minute. If the relay still thunks when the switch is pressed, then this isn't the problem.

Griswald One · 05-21-2017, 09:38 AM

Thanks All... Low shore power definetly appears to be part of the problem. My neighbour has a better surge protector then me and gets error codes. His box is throwing lower power codes. We did have one big energy draw going at the time it failed, the electric heat was on. So that may explain the E05 code.

As for the loss of 12V... It is now working, problem is I don't know what I did right to fix it. I did have the battery disconnected so that might be the source. But I had already tried that once and it did not resolve the problem the first time.

Right before the problem resolved, I had thrown the 15a breaker several times, I was listening for the Inverter and could hear it connecting. I had checked the breaker this morning before calling on you guys for help so that did not seem to be the problem. I had also moved/shifted many of the wires around the inverter. So my thoughts are I either have a problem breaker or there is a break in a wire somewhere that shifting them around has resolved???

WorldCat · 05-21-2017, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griswald One

As for the loss of 12V... It is now working, problem is I don't know what I did right to fix it.

Don't you hate that!

Griswald One · 05-21-2017, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WorldCat

Don't you hate that!

Definetly sucks

So here is my next failure to understand? How does a heavy load on the 110 system impact the inverter/converter. My belief, which is likely flawed, was that the primary purpose of the Xantrex is to provide step down 12v power to run things such as my LED lighting, the fridge and the slides. It has the added benefit of being able to do the opposite for one outlet and convert the 12v power from the batteries to 110 when not hooked up to shore power? Basically so the kids can watch TV while I drive.

If this is all it is doing... Why would the heavy load on the 110 system... ie the electric heater... have a negative impact on the inverter/converter output load?

hoppers4 · 05-21-2017, 04:54 PM

You're getting two devices mixed up. The inverter converts 12VDC to 115VAC. The converter converts 115VAC to 12VDC and charges your battery, runs your lights, fridge, thermostat, Fantastic fan, and anything else that's 12VDC. If you have the heater plugged into the only outlet that it's hooked to (the TV outlet above the bunk), then if the 115VAC drops enough to enable the inverter, you'll get the E05 alarm. The inverter is bypassed when plugged in to 115VAC. The inverter remote panel still works, but the 115VAC is going directly through the inverter.

**Mustang65** · 05-21-2017, 04:59 PM

Do you have a Residential fridge in your RV?
Are you on shore power?
What is your battery voltage?
Did your ever let your battery totally die?

Don

My Registry

RVing with SOLAR

Griswald One · 05-21-2017, 08:47 PM

Hopper... I am definetly more confused then ever then... So I had half the story right, that the Inverter converts my 12v to the 115vac. I know that when solely on battery it then provides power to the TV Outlet. Does it serve any other function? If not then I am trying to understand why apparent failure of the inverter then caused me to lose all 12v power?? Or was this really two seperate events and bad coincidental timing?

In answer to Mustang... I have a two-way fridge, I was on shore power, the battery was reading 13.6 on the voltmeter and it is new last year and has never been allowed to die. Over the winter it was completely disconnected and recharged every 5 weeks. This was the first trip of the season so the battery was in great shape .... Any suggestions???

The heat source was primarily the heat sink on the A/C unit. I was running a secondary plug in heater but not in the outlet connected to the inverter. The only thing plugged into that outlet was my son's laptop, I am not sure what the draw on that would be but I can imagine it would be enough to strain the inverter. It is the Xantrex 1000.

hoppers4 · 05-22-2017, 07:43 AM

The inverter's only purpose is to provide power to the outlet above the bunk. A laptop charger will not overload the inverter. The inverter is a 1000 watt inverter and that laptop charger shouldn't draw over 100 watts.

Without actually spending some time troubleshooting the problem, I can only offer some possible problems. Even though the battery isn't very old, it could still be defective and it wouldn't take a very large current draw to decrease the voltage into an unusable state. You can monitor the battery voltage by using the inverter remote display. There could be a poor connection somewhere in any part of the 12VDC side from input wiring to the ground side. I guessing that a poor connection somewhere on the 12VDC side could cause an overcurrent alarm on the inverter. The inverter could be defective.

If you're plugged in to shore power, all those suggestions above are moot as the inverter is bypassed when plugged in.

If you're using the AC heat pump and have another heater plugged in, you're close to the maximum current draw of the 30 amp 115VAC circuit. The heat pump draws somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 amps and the same draw is possible using a plug in heater. The fridge also draws about 3 amps. The water heater electric side could come on and draw another 10 amps. This current draw shouldn't cause any problems with your inverter. It should just trip your main 30 amp house breaker (or the post breaker, whichever is fastest).

Griswald One · 05-22-2017, 08:55 PM

Thanks again for your thoughts. I actually do keep the Inverter panel turned on to monitor the battery. The reason it was new last year was the dealer replaced the original under warranty, so I like to keep an eye on it. Numbers have always been good from my understanding, I don't think I have seen it below 11.4 when not on shore power and when I am connected it sits at 13.6-14.4

I can see the draw issues with the two heaters and potentially the fridge. No water heater thought, we have the Girard Thankless. But that still confuses me as to where it would impact the Inverter? Should that not result in the breaker at the panel popping if I am drawing to much? I should also mention when I recieved the E05 code the day before, it was mid-day and we were running the A/C and no other significant draw was active.

The next night we had no problems, but I did not run the secondary heater and I had my son move his laptop to another outlet. I would liked to have had him shut it down but he was renderering a 3-D Model for a school project due Tuesday, so it had to keep running.

Last thought... If the Inverter panel is turned on, even though we are on shore power, is the Inverter active for the TV Outlet? And if it is, does an Inverter have a limited run time, can it overheat from continuous use. My son plugged the laptop in on Friday afternoon and it was rendering non-stop up until the problems on Sunday morning? The inverter on the 29ME is also located in a closed compartment under the bed... Could that lead to or encourage overheating/failure?

hoppers4 · 05-22-2017, 09:31 PM

When hooked to shore power, the inverter is not being used. It's being bypassed.

You're right about the inverter being under the bed in an enclosed space but that wouldn't matter if you're on shore power. BTW, if you've ever noticed a fan cycling on and off, that's the inverter and not the converter. That fan cycling had me scratching my head for a while til I started feeling around when I had that panel open. I always assumed it was the converter.

As for the E05 alarm, my only suggestion would be low input from the battery. Battery input wouldn't come into play unless you lost shore power. So you had to have a couple of things wrong at the same time, namely loss of shore power and low voltage from the battery. This is just my best guess as I can't simulate the problem and since the code really means excess current draw.

There's no way a laptop and TV would exceed 1000 watts. I'm guessing the TV is only 100-150 watts and the laptop is only around 100 watts. Another possibility is a wiring problem between the inverter and the outlet or the outlet itself. Jayco does a number on that outlet by adding a cutout relay to disable it while underway. Possibly they munged something up at the outlet. If you or a friend are capable of replacing the outlet without getting killed, that would be an option. Just secure shore power and the inverter prior to working on it. And know that there's also 12VDC present on the relay behind it.

As far as the inverter being under the panel under the bed (same location as my MV) and in an enclosed space, it's not the smartest idea. It may contribute to a shorter lifespan for the inverter but it wouldn't be on my list of things to worry about.

elcheapo · 05-23-2017, 07:36 AM

My 2016 Redhawk Manual States "The Inverter should be OFF when not being used ".

**Mustang65** · 05-23-2017, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griswald One

Thanks again for your thoughts. I actually do keep the Inverter panel turned on to monitor the battery. Numbers have always been good from my understanding, I don't think I have seen it below 11.4 when not on shore power and when I am connected it sits at 13.6-14.4

Gooooooood Morning Griswald One,

Let's look at your post one item at a time. Yes, "IF" you can leave your inverter on to watch your battery that is great, but what you are interpreting as "Numbers have always been good from my understanding" may be a little off. We need to raise your understanding a little bit. 11.4 once or twice would be acceptable, more than that you are KILLING your battery(s). Most people think a DEAD 12Volt battery is "0"VDC. Well, yes that is a "TOTALY" dead battery and will probably never hold a decent charge again. A 12VDC battery is "ELECTRICALLY DEAD" at 10.5VDC. This is when the Specific Gravity of the battery fluid equals "0". So at 11.5Volts your battery has been drained over 90% of its FULL charge.

The problem with discharging to this level is that each time you discharge to this level your batteries Ah's are reduced and its life is shortened. Let's say your battery new has an Ah rating of 85Ah (of which you can only use about 40 Ah without ruining your battery = 12.0VDC). Brand new you may get 6hrs (depending on your loads) of use. If you continually discharge to below 12.0 VDC your batteries total Ah's will drop. My 5 year old Interstate 85Ah batteries (not in the TT) only have a total of 40Ah's of which I can only use 50% or 20Ah. They look good, charged stay at 12.8 VDC (without charge connected) but as soon as I put a load on them, you can watch the voltage start dropping. Under load they do not last very long. Their voltage has never been below 12.0VDC, or lacking a charge.

So, I would recommend that if you already do not adhere to a "LOW VOLTAGE" plan you sit down with the family and come up with one. Something like: When your battery hits the 12.0VDC level, you either start a generator to recharge the battery(s) or if that is not possible, you start to shut down 12Volt items in the RV... such as charging your laptops, cell phones, notebooks, Tv, radio, lights (only have one or 2 LED's on. No main heater system.

If you are not comfortable with a plan like that, I would suggest you double your battery power, just remember that it will take about 2x as long to recharge them. You may encounter a problem of doubling your batteries, by not implementing a plan to conserve energy and end up in the same place with 2x the Ah of your original battery.

Also with the voltages bouncing around like that and a deeper charge needed you will want to constantly check your batteries water level, and maintain the level with only distilled water.

Good Luck,

Don

My Registry

RVing with SOLAR

**Mustang65** · 05-23-2017, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griswald One

Thanks again for your thoughts. I actually do keep the Inverter panel turned on to monitor the battery. Numbers have always been good from my understanding, I don't think I have seen it below 11.4 when not on shore power and when I am connected it sits at 13.6-14.4

Gooooooood Morning Griswald One,

Let's look at your post one item at a time. Yes, if you can leave your inverter on to watch your battery that is great, but what you are interpreting as "Numbers have always been good from my understanding" may be a little off. We need to raise your understanding a little bit. 11.4 once or twice would be acceptable, more than that you are KILLING your battery(s). Most people think a DEAD 12Volt battery is "0"VDC. Well, yes that is a "TOTALY" dead battery and will probably never hold a decent charge again. A 12VDC battery is "ELECTRICALLY DEAD" at 10.5VDC. This is when the Specific Gravity of the battery fluid equals "0". So at 11.5Volts your battery has been drained over 90% of its FULL charge.

The problem with discharging to this level is that each time you discharge to this level your batteries Ah's are reduced and its life is shortened. Let's say your battery new has an Ah rating of 85Ah (of which you can only use about 40 Ah without ruining your battery = 12.0VDC). Brand new you may get 6hrs (depending on your loads) of use. If you continually discharge to below 12.0 VDC your batteries total Ah's will drop. My 5 year old Interstate 85Ah batteries (not in the TT) only have a total of 40Ah's of which I can only use 50% or 20Ah. They look good, charged stay at 12.8 VDC (without charge connected) but as soon as I put a load on them, you can watch the voltage start dropping. Under load they do not last very long.

So, I would recommend that if you already do not adhere to a "LOW VOLTAGE" plan you sit down with the family and come up with one. Something like: When your battery hits the 12.0VDC level, you either start a generator to recharge the battery(s) or if that is not possible, you start to shut down 12Volt items in the RV... such as charging your laptops, cell phones, notebooks, Tv, radio, lights (only have one or 2 LED's on. No main heater system.

If you are not comfortable with a plan like that, I would suggest you double your battery power, just remember that it will take about 2x as long to recharge them. You may encounter a problem of doubling your batteries, but not implementing a plan to conserve energy and end up in the same place with 2x the Ah of your original battery.

Also with the voltages bouncing around like that and a deeper charge needed you will want to constantly check your batteries water level, and maintain the level with only distilled water.

There are some name brand Digital Voltage Displays that give you the battery status (Volts, Ah used, Ah replaced, Amps) that may help, and you would not have to leave the inverter on.

Good Luck,

Don

My Registry

RVing with SOLAR

**Mustang65** · 05-23-2017, 08:17 AM

One additional thing to watch is that MOST inverters have a LOW VOLTAGE cutoff voltage. In most that I have seen, that voltage is 10.5 or 11.0 volts. Which means if you have a load on the battery (laptop..) and turn on another load and the surge drops the batteries voltage below the inverters low voltage point it will trigger an error code, and in most cases if the voltage does not go above the set point will shut the inverter down until the battery voltage hits a set voltage point somewhere between 10.5 and 12.0.

Also, the closer to 12.0 battery voltage will drop in voltage will be greater. One additional point, inverters are designed to produce 115VAC @ 13.2Volts. Why, your guess is as good as mine. So, the lower the batteries voltage the lower the AV voltage will be. On my 1500 watt inverter, at 13.0Volts, my inverter puts out 119VAC... at 12.2 Volts my inverter is only putting out 100VAC. I have a Digital Voltage Meter in one of my AC outlets that lets me know the AC voltage, just in case. At the 100VAC level I turn of the Tv.

So in the middle of the night should the battery be close to 12.0 VDC and the furnace kicks on dropping the battery voltage to below 10.5 for a moment the inverter will give you an error code.

HEAT: can also be an issue to the inverter. Does the inverter have a cooling fan? I would take a digital thermometer with a memory that records high/low/current temperatures and put it by the inverter to see if it is over heating.

You can add an inexpensive 12VDC thermostat (Amazon) and a 3 or 4" 12VDC computer fan (Amazon) to cool the inverter, or maybe as a vent to the under bed storage area.

Griswald One · 05-25-2017, 08:39 PM

Thanks for the advice, you are correct that there is much to learn. When I say the lowest I think I have seen is 11.4, that is not under regular use. I am relying on poor memory, at best, of the numbers seen during my once every 5 week visits in the winter. On those visits I reconnect the batteries and run the engine and generator for an hour to make sure everything is topped up. Perhaps next winter I will record the Voltage each visit to ensure I have a record of the batteries state. With your advice, I will certainly be more cognizant of ensuring it stays above 12.

During regular use, the batteries have never actually experienced an extended load without an alternate power source. We always camp with full hookups so the only time the battery is doing all the work is between trips with the Master Power turned off so there is only a very limited parasitic draws and I never allow it to go more then two weeks without either running the Genny or hooking up to Shore Power.

Appreciate your thoughts!

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