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Old 10-18-2017, 09:26 AM   #1
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Safe to decrease tongue weight from 14.5% to 12.5%?

I'm towing a 2007 213 Exp behind a 2014 Grand Cherokee with the 5.7L V8. It tows fine for the most part. I feel the vacuum feeling sucking me to the side when cars pass which I assume would be lessened with a longer wheel base on the tow vehicle but I've never towed with anything else.

I would like to re-balance my trailer because the tongue weight I'm measuring is 695 lbs when the trailer is loaded to 4800 pounds. That comes out to 14.5% of the trailers weight on the tongue.

I know it is generally not a good idea to start making changes to trailer balance but since my trailer is near the extreme end of acceptable tongue weight (10-15% rule of thumb) would I be causing issues by moving weight back to reduce tongue weight to something more suited for my Jeep? I'm thinking about shooting for 13%. I would just move gear towards the back but the storage in this trailer is all right at the front under the bunks.

Another member pointed out that putting in mass way in the rear of the trailer has an effect on swaying separate from the effect on reduction on tongue weight. To eliminate that scenario when I move weight from the front of the trailer back I would place it over the axles. That said I know some trailers have the storage in the back and start out with overly heavy tongues that balance out when the gear is the back of the trailer.

I don't think balancing your trailer properly with gear placement is anything new but I think I raised a red flag when I said what I would like to do is move my battery and spare tire from the tongue to the back of the trailer permanently. If I moved them to the axle that would take 75 lbs off the tongue. If I moved it to the far rear that would maybe take 100 lbs off the tongue. This would still leave me around 600 lbs on the tongue which would be about 12.5% on the tongue.

My goal is to leave a little margin on my jeep's max tongue weight of 720 lbs and leave some room for driving with waste tanks full when there is not a dump station available. With full waste tanks I'm probably over the 15% rule of thumb which doesn't seem safe to me.My fresh water is over the axles and both waste tanks are forward of the axles.

Am I overlooking something or is this safe to do and basically the same thing as moving gear around to balance my trailer?
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Old 10-18-2017, 10:37 AM   #2
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You state "I feel the vacuum feeling sucking me to the side when cars pass"


If you feel it when cars pass it must drive you nuts when a semi passes you


I did not notice if you are using sway bars or not. If not I suggest you use them.


Something that I do and you may want to try When a vehicle is passing me and I feel like I am being sucked over I will increase my speed about 2-3 MPH This will not interfere with the vehicle that is passing you but it will help to decrease the vacuum between the two vehicles


Also keeping as far to the right of your lane as safely possible will help.
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Old 10-18-2017, 10:51 AM   #3
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It's good you're concerned about safety and checking the actual weights and capacities of your TT and TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pitchlynn View Post
I'm towing a 2007 213 Exp behind a 2014 Grand Cherokee with the 5.7L V8. It tows fine for the most part. I feel the vacuum feeling sucking me to the side when cars pass which I assume would be lessened with a longer wheel base on the tow vehicle but I've never towed with anything else.
** In a previous post your sway sounded more serious than the above 'sucking'. Yes, a longer wheelbase would help, but so would an anti-sway component (built in or added on) as part of the hitch and increasing TT and TV tire pressures.

I would like to re-balance my trailer because the tongue weight I'm measuring is 695 lbs when the trailer is loaded to 4800 pounds. That comes out to 14.5% of the trailers weight on the tongue.

I know it is generally not a good idea to start making changes to trailer balance but since my trailer is near the extreme end of acceptable tongue weight (10-15% rule of thumb) would I be causing issues by moving weight back to reduce tongue weight to something more suited for my Jeep? I'm thinking about shooting for 13%. I would just move gear towards the back but the storage in this trailer is all right at the front under the bunks.
** Do you have a dinette in your TT and is there storage under those seats?

Another member pointed out that putting in mass way in the rear of the trailer has an effect on swaying separate from the effect on reduction on tongue weight. To eliminate that scenario when I move weight from the front of the trailer back I would place it over the axles. That said I know some trailers have the storage in the back and start out with overly heavy tongues that balance out when the gear is the back of the trailer.

I don't think balancing your trailer properly with gear placement is anything new but I think I raised a red flag when I said what I would like to do is move my battery and spare tire from the tongue to the back of the trailer permanently. If I moved them to the axle that would take 75 lbs off the tongue. If I moved it to the far rear that would maybe take 100 lbs off the tongue. This would still leave me around 600 lbs on the tongue which would be about 12.5% on the tongue.
** My concern was moving mass to the rear of your TT when it seemed sway was already an issue for you.

My goal is to leave a little margin on my jeep's max tongue weight of 720 lbs and leave some room for driving with waste tanks full when there is not a dump station available. With full waste tanks I'm probably over the 15% rule of thumb which doesn't seem safe to me.My fresh water is over the axles and both waste tanks are forward of the axles.
** As long as other weight limits (hitch, receiver, TV) are not exceeded, going over %15 tongue weight is not moving into an 'unsafe' realm; generally the greater % of tongue weight the less tendency for sway. It sounds like most of your camping is boondocking and you need a dump station when you are in route home or to your next site, not long stretches with full waste tanks. Is that true? BTW, when boondocking, there are places where dumping gray water is permitted and I believe your gray tank is larger than your black tank.


Am I overlooking something or is this safe to do and basically the same thing as moving gear around to balance my trailer?
** IMO, you are being cautious and methodical and haven't overlooked things.
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Old 10-18-2017, 10:52 AM   #4
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My opinion is you are playing with Fire. You can find several TT accidents on YouTube and many of them have stuff mounted on the rear bumper. I tend to believe that you are compounding the issue of a marginal tow vehicle by moving this weight around . If you were towing this with a dually, you could probably get away with moving the weight(ignoring the fact that you wouldn't need to). But with your vehicle, your margin of error is significantly less.

You seem to want to do this because of the weights you are seeing. If it is sagging, a wdh and airbags might help a little with that. The short wheelbase is also a big negative to stability.
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Old 10-18-2017, 11:21 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bedrck46 View Post
You state "I feel the vacuum feeling sucking me to the side when cars pass"


If you feel it when cars pass it must drive you nuts when a semi passes you


I did not notice if you are using sway bars or not. If not I suggest you use them.


Something that I do and you may want to try When a vehicle is passing me and I feel like I am being sucked over I will increase my speed about 2-3 MPH This will not interfere with the vehicle that is passing you but it will help to decrease the vacuum between the two vehicles


Also keeping as far to the right of your lane as safely possible will help.
The feeling of being sucked over isn't drastic or scary but I do feel it and sometimes slightly correct for it. I had the same thought as you that if a car/suv sucked me over that a semi would be worse but the few that have passed me wasn't any worse.

I'm using a EAZ-Lift WDH with no friction brake so I don't think there is any anti sway built in. I've thought about adding a friction brake to avoid sway in an emergency maneuver and to reduce that feeling when cars pass but haven't felt the need for it and one more thing to hassle with.

Thanks!
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Old 10-18-2017, 11:34 AM   #6
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Thank you for your replies. I pulled out your questions to make my response shorter.

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** Do you have a dinette in your TT and is there storage under those seats?
Yes. The dinette is just behind the axles. There is storage under half of each bench. I have light items under there plus a 29 lb generator which I put back there on purpose.
** My concern was moving mass to the rear of your TT when it seemed sway was already an issue for you.
Right, I don't have any issues with sway or handling beyond the sucking feeling which doesn't seem alarming to me.

** As long as other weight limits (hitch, receiver, TV) are not exceeded, going over %15 tongue weight is not moving into an 'unsafe' realm; generally the greater % of tongue weight the less tendency for sway. It sounds like most of your camping is boondocking and you need a dump station when you are in route home or to your next site, not long stretches with full waste tanks. Is that true? BTW, when boondocking, there are places where dumping gray water is permitted and I believe your gray tank is larger than your black tank.
I boondock 2-3 times a summer. If I can find a dump close by I make a point to stop but my last trip was in the middle of no where on a dry lake. Interesting that you can dump gray water some places. I'll have to research as that would help a lot to get rid of.

Good to know going over 15% isn't a stability issue but I would be over my jeep's max tongue weight and rear axle at that point for sure.

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Old 10-18-2017, 11:45 AM   #7
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I've watched those videos! That's why I'm on here asking for advice and not just jumping into this. Thank you. I agree that with my TV any change is more drastic and could quickly become unsafe.

I'm using a WDH and the Jeep is air ride so there is no sagging or anything that concerns me other than the Jeep's loading numbers. My intent is just to add a little margin to the numbers while being careful not to end up unsafely balanced. But I hear you. It would be definitely be the safer choice to stay on the heavier side with the tongue weight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dee View Post
My opinion is you are playing with Fire. You can find several TT accidents on YouTube and many of them have stuff mounted on the rear bumper. I tend to believe that you are compounding the issue of a marginal tow vehicle by moving this weight around . If you were towing this with a dually, you could probably get away with moving the weight(ignoring the fact that you wouldn't need to). But with your vehicle, your margin of error is significantly less.

You seem to want to do this because of the weights you are seeing. If it is sagging, a wdh and airbags might help a little with that. The short wheelbase is also a big negative to stability.
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Old 10-18-2017, 11:49 AM   #8
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snip..... I've thought about adding a friction brake to avoid sway in an emergency maneuver and to reduce that feeling when cars pass but haven't felt the need for it and one more thing to hassle with. Thanks!
IMO it's worth the hassle...., it's a cheap one-time insurance investment. As you stated, it's a pro-active and reactive sway control device.

Bob
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Old 10-18-2017, 12:14 PM   #9
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Definitely sway control. And TW is always an spectacle never ending debate. In Europe and Australia they recommend 7 to 8% in North America 10 to 15%, just wonder who are the experts. A short wheel base doesn't help either and also the weight and stability of the TV vehicle. When you feel comfortable pulling that's what counts. Pulling a trailer always feels different than going solo. Know your equipment and drive it accordingly.
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Old 10-18-2017, 01:47 PM   #10
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snip...... And TW is always an spectacle never ending debate. In Europe and Australia they recommend 7 to 8% in North America 10 to 15%, just wonder who are the experts.....snip
One would find the RV industry in Europe and Australia typically produce lighter/shorter trailers due to the vast amount of smaller TV's. IMO travel trailer tongue weights in those countries are in the ballpark of boat trailer tongue weights here. Safety and/or rating standards very...., plus trailer design configurations very in other countries (i.e.; axles placed further forward, etc.).

Just thinking out load here....

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Old 10-18-2017, 02:55 PM   #11
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Just focusing on the percentage of GVW that is on the tongue: I think 12.5% is fine in most cases for a shorter trailer. My trailer is over 33 ft coupler to bumper, so I keep mine up closer to 15% for a more stable tow. I've had it lower than that plenty of times, and while I can feel the difference, it's far from "unsafe", and still definitely over 10%.

The bottom line is that you're going to have to try it and see how it feels. How are you measuring your tongue weight? Do you have a Sherline? If so, it's easy in your case. Just use your waste tanks to adjust the tongue weight for "testing" purposes. Try towing at around 12.5% tongue weight and see how it feels. If it doesn't feel right, bump it up a point and try again. There is a decent chance you won't even be able to feel the difference.

You could also just try it next time you're out. We're not talking about drastic things here (except for moving the battery and spare), so you could load the trailer with more heavy gear toward the rear or over the axles, and if it gets a little too squirrely for your comfort, just take a few minutes and move the gear back toward the front.

I do agree the shorter wheel base is not helping matters, but lots of people tow with Jeep GC, and that's not something you can readily or easily change right now. I will also second the motion for a sway control device. That's one of those things you don't need until you do, and by then it's too late.
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Old 10-18-2017, 03:03 PM   #12
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Don't find a North American excuse now........lol. A Trailer is a Trailer no matter how big or small. TW is TW and yes TT are much heavier in North America (the bigger the better) and the sweet balance is usual in the design where the axles and accessories will be. Speed is also a factor for sway, how higher the speed how bigger the chance on sway. The UK started with the TW test versus loading. (I wish they would have done a test with tandem axles, because they have a tendency to go straight))
A truck pulling it with no comparable weight ratio brings things off balance. That's why people who buy a 3/4 ton notice right o way the difference between a 1/2 ton.
You buy a one ton and don't need a WDH at all with the biggest TT they built.
In Austrailia or Europe they have winds like North America too, which is a very big factor of sway also. The same is for proper loading. When I was around my 20's I drove a truck and trailer, the trailer had also a front axle and the tandem axle was more towards the back. The truck was shorter than the TT by 2 1/2 yards, but the weight loaded was close to balance. Now speed has always been at 80 km(50 mi)/hour in Europe so sway would be zero, because sway usual start past the 80km(50 mi)/hour.
It was the sweetest combo I ever drove. High speed and wind displacement are the biggest causes of sway, next is improper loading, and also weight distribution of the TW. To light the front end of a TV will cause quicker sway, also if you lift the rear axle of the TV. Another factor if you would bring the hitch point to the TV rear axle center of close enough, sway will be eliminated. Think about gooseneck and fifth wheel hookups.
You'll never hear from anyone who drove under 100 km (62 miles)/hour and the TT proper loaded that they had sway. You only hear from people who drive over this speed.
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Old 10-18-2017, 03:34 PM   #13
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I've thought about adding a friction brake to avoid sway in an emergency maneuver and to reduce that feeling when cars pass but haven't felt the need for it and one more thing to hassle with.

Thanks!
Just my opinion It is much better to have sway control and not need it rather than not have it than really needed it

Also once you have the sway bar installed iy only takea a minute or two to connect or disconnect the sway bar.
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Old 10-18-2017, 11:07 PM   #14
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Thanks for all the input everyone!

On the sway control, if I stick with my exiting eaz lift WDH, would adding a friction brake be what I would want to add for sway control? Any recommendations on the preferred one to go with?

I know some WDH hitches have sway control built into the geometry but those are the only 2 options I've come across. The consensus to add sway control convinced me to add it!
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Old 10-18-2017, 11:43 PM   #15
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snip.....if I stick with my exiting eaz lift WDH, would adding a friction brake be what I would want to add for sway control? Any recommendations on the preferred one to go with?....snip
EAZ-Lift makes a couple different style WDH's, so I assume that you have the conventional EAZ-Lift Elite WDH, not the "Recurve" or "Trekker" models.

EAZ-Lift, Reese, Draw Tite, etc., all offer very similar friction sway control bars that would work with the conventional EAZ-Lift WDH.



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Old 10-19-2017, 08:55 AM   #16
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Yes, mine is the conventional model and the style of brake in your image is what I was picturing as an add on to mine.

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EAZ-Lift makes a couple different style WDH's, so I assume that you have the conventional EAZ-Lift Elite WDH, not the "Recurve" or "Trekker" models.

EAZ-Lift, Reese, Draw Tite, etc., all offer very similar friction sway control bars that would work with the conventional EAZ-Lift WDH.



Bob
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Old 10-19-2017, 01:16 PM   #17
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I am keeping around 10% TW with my 28DSBH, ProPride hitch and (regarded by many) inadequate TV. I am towing max 60 mph. No problem with stability, braking, no correction needed for passing semis.
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