Can I back up with flat toad?

[DonBr]

Originally Posted by SloPoke

Look up the definition of "discovery" in a legal proceeding.

I am well aware of the nature of discovery. I'm also well aware of the extreme oddity of a single-vehicle accident without injury winding up in a lawsuit. There is something here we are not being told.

[Pfflyer]

Originally Posted by SloPoke

I can't count how many times we have been forced to back up... The reasons are endless, not really preventable with any type of advance preparation and most often with someone behind us waiting for us to go-forward into a worse situation than backing up safely. AND we have a trailer that is easy to back up!

Know that we have towed our TOAD on our trailer since 2013. It was not long after a friend flopped their Jeep TJ on Interstate 15 when flat towing it right in front of us... The Jeep suddenly started to sway back/forth and it went super-violent before it broke loose and took off on it's own. Yea, they were not backing up, but did about 2 hours earlier in Fillmore UT when getting fuel. Not only was the Jeep totaled, their insurance did not cover anything - as they did not follow the operating instructions.

Luckily, the only one who died in this incident, was the Jeep... oh, and the tow bar and a bunch of stuff with it.

My first tow bar failed the next trip we took after I backed up maybe 1 foot. One lever would fail to lock. At the time one of the manufacturers had a trade in deal so that is what I did. Dealer asked if backed up and then told me what I posted earlier about them not designed to handle the stress of backing up. My toad is only 1900 lbs.

[TaftCoach]

Originally Posted by DonBr

But is that not true of most vehicle operations/navigation? Should we all just stay home because every day someone has an accident? At some point we've all had some degree of education in how to operate a motor vehicle. Some are better at it than others, but there all sorts of situations one can/will find themselves in where you have to use best judgement and possibly not follow rigid rules.

Yes, it's very true. At some point, you personally, with your degree of education on driving a motor vehicle, are too fatigued to drive and should be told not to instead of offering advice on how to drive while heavily fatigued.

[DonBr]

Originally Posted by TaftCoach

Yes, it's very true. At some point, you personally, with your degree of education on driving a motor vehicle, are too fatigued to drive and should be told not to instead of offering advice on how to drive while heavily fatigued.

I love how you zeroed in on fatigue and ignored the other 4 of your original five: Terrain. Skill. Fatigue. Communication. Vehicle. Even those don't begin to cover the host of possible situations.

[RetiredAndFree]

Not endorsing this nor would I try it but Nomadic Fanatic has a video of this on YouTube. Seems he wraps a bungee cord around the steering wheel and to the seat belt. Makes sure the steering wheel and tires are straight. This allows him to back straight back and the tires can't turn. Only good for straight back. He also uses a very small smart car which I imagine would jackknife quickly. AGAIN, I am not endorsing this but maybe some brave soul is brave enough to test it.

[Ann-Marie]

Thanks everyone for great and doomsday advise.
Conclusions.
1. While the steering wheel camber will allow the toad to steer and follow, the camber works in reverse when going backwards and is unstable. *****
2. Use Google Maps to check out parking lot. *****
3. Confirm my suspicion - passenger in vehicle with power steering on can hold the wheel at least for a straight backup. I'm not sure if they could judge the amount of turn required for cornering. *****
4. I ran a 28 ft trailer for 20 years and backed it into impossible places so while I respect the doomsday advise I have extensive experience on backing up.
5. As for the tow bar system falling apart for pushing instead of pulling, male bovine excrement at least on ours.
6. I already knew that the overrun style braking system has to be disabled, very easy to do.
7. Harmonic instability in the toad is a scary prospect. You can see lots of videos of that on 2 wheel trailers. On our travel trailer we had a heavy duty sway bar brake that worked well. I've not seen them used on a 4 wheel vehicle, feedback on that is a subject for a new post.

[Stavman]

8. Don't overvthink everything
9. Don't over analyze everything
10. Just dont

[Pfflyer]

Originally Posted by Ann-Marie

Thanks everyone for great and doomsday advise.
Conclusions.
1. While the steering wheel camber will allow the toad to steer and follow, the camber works in reverse when going backwards and is unstable. *****
2. Use Google Maps to check out parking lot. *****
3. Confirm my suspicion - passenger in vehicle with power steering on can hold the wheel at least for a straight backup. I'm not sure if they could judge the amount of turn required for cornering. *****
4. I ran a 28 ft trailer for 20 years and backed it into impossible places so while I respect the doomsday advise I have extensive experience on backing up.
5. As for the tow bar system falling apart for pushing instead of pulling, male bovine excrement at least on ours.
6. I already knew that the overrun style braking system has to be disabled, very easy to do.
7. Harmonic instability in the toad is a scary prospect. You can see lots of videos of that on 2 wheel trailers. On our travel trailer we had a heavy duty sway bar brake that worked well. I've not seen them used on a 4 wheel vehicle, feedback on that is a subject for a new post.

Good luck. I hope you let us know if your tow bar fails.

[Vicr]

I can unhook our toad in less than 5 minutes and hooking up takes 10 and we always do a safety check with the lights and braking. So maybe 15 to 20 minutes and then have the piece of mind I haven't damaged anything.

[DonBr]

For what it's worth, I towed for 5 years with an original Roadmaster Sterling, then traded it in at Quartzsite for the non-binding model when those came out. 15 years on that one, and it is still going strong for the next owner. I only backed it up a half-dozen times or so, but I would do it again in those circumstances. I even pulled a 36,000 lb bus backwards about 100 yards with my Grand Cherokee because there was no way for the tow truck driver to do the job. He steered the dead bus without power steering while I churned away in 4-wheel low. They make modern tow bars strong!

[Insist on live music]

Walkie-talkies more reliable than cell phones which can go into "sleep" mode and so on. I purchased some $30 set that work fine.

[LCBOYER]

I have backed my Jeep a few times. I start engine and use a bungee cord to keep wheels going straight.

[Johnynorthland]

I only back on to my leveling ramps when at an overnight and I don’t unhook. I keep the wheels straight and only move about 2-3’ max, neve an issue.

I do know there are people out there with smart cars that bungee the steering wheel so the wheels don’t turn but those cars are very light. Like others have said you can cause major damage. But someone also bought up the fact that you can have your spouse or friend get in the toad and steer the wheel but that sounds tricky. I wouldn’t trust my wife! (Sorry hun!)

[gymracer]

I'm not saying this to in courage people to backup with a flat tow. But in the 60s we flat towed racecars with homemade tow bars and we would back them up as needed often having a buddy keep wheels from locking. Now I haul my vehicle behind the motorhome on a trailer, safer and less stress and I can back the trailer.

[Ann-Marie]

Originally Posted by gymracer

I'm not saying this to in courage people to backup with a flat tow. But in the 60s we flat towed racecars with homemade tow bars and we would back them up as needed often having a buddy keep wheels from locking. Now I haul my vehicle behind the motorhome on a trailer, safer and less stress and I can back the trailer.

It seems to me that the wheel camber and tow-in on the toad are organized so that the wheels follow the tow with the steering wheel turning to follow.

When pushing in reverse, you have positive feedback instead of negative so the wheel will tend to do the opposite, as soon as it gets off center it will rapidly turn in the wrong direction.

So rather than a bungee cord and tying it straight, allowing only for straight backup, a driver sitting in the seat could hold the wheel and resist motion by forcing it the opposite direction to which it is trending. As you fight it back there will be a pivot point sweet spot where it you go any further it now is assisting you so you always fight it back to the sweet spot. The sweet spot position will change with the angle to the toad but you find it by always resisting rotation until it balances.

The driver backing up the rig would steer like you do when backing up a trailer while the passenger in the toad keeps the front wheels on target.

We would have to disable the over-run braking system so the toad can be pushed.

[Stavman]

Or..

Maybe....

Just don't do it

[SloPoke]

Originally Posted by Ann-Marie

It seems to me that the wheel camber and tow-in on the toad are organized so that the wheels follow the tow with the steering wheel turning to follow.

When pushing in reverse, you have positive feedback instead of negative so the wheel will tend to do the opposite, as soon as it gets off center it will rapidly turn in the wrong direction.

So rather than a bungee cord and tying it straight, allowing only for straight backup, a driver sitting in the seat could hold the wheel and resist motion by forcing it the opposite direction to which it is trending. As you fight it back there will be a pivot point sweet spot where it you go any further it now is assisting you so you always fight it back to the sweet spot. The sweet spot position will change with the angle to the toad but you find it by always resisting rotation until it balances.

The driver backing up the rig would steer like you do when backing up a trailer while the passenger in the toad keeps the front wheels on target.

We would have to disable the over-run braking system so the toad can be pushed.

I gave up on estimating the risk of doing something that the manufacturer of the towing equipment says NOT TO DO.

If the tow bar is intended for towing, but not designed for pushing - then it makes more sense to follow the guidelines, instructions and warnings of the manufacturer of the equipment. If they say you can "Tow" with it... follow the instructions that go with the equipment. Know the limitations, if it says don't back up- there must be a good reason why.

Originally Posted by Stavman

Or..

Maybe....

Just don't do it

Yep... if lives are at risk - WHY risk it at all?

[Ann-Marie]

Originally Posted by SloPoke

I gave up on estimating the risk of doing something that the manufacturer of the towing equipment says NOT TO DO.

If the tow bar is intended for towing, but not designed for pushing - then it makes more sense to follow the guidelines, instructions and warnings of the manufacturer of the equipment. If they say you can "Tow" with it... follow the instructions that go with the equipment. Know the limitations, if it says don't back up- there must be a good reason why.


Yep... if lives are at risk - WHY risk it at all?

Yes there is a good reason why, of course they say not to do it, the steering is unstable as I indicated. But if you understand the nature of the instability it can be overcome in an emergency.

The risk to life backing up at a few mph is not serious.

If a tow bar is designed to pull it is also designed to push otherwise any time you put on the brakes and the toad brakes were not working the tow bar would be destroyed.
It can push just as much as it can pull.

[OnTheGo]

Originally Posted by Vicr

I can unhook our toad in less than 5 minutes and hooking up takes 10 and we always do a safety check with the lights and braking. So maybe 15 to 20 minutes and then have the piece of mind I haven't damaged anything.

This has my vote for the best answer.

[Onyrlef]

Originally Posted by OnTheGo

This has my vote for the best answer.

Two votes now.