Loose steering, wandering & sway

[MikeUSNRet]

Originally Posted by Jopopsy

My rig came w/ airbags in the back. Which I loathed. My suspension modifications in order are as follows:

1. Replaced rear sway bar w/ Hellwig
2. Replaced front sway bar w/ Hellwig
3. Pulled Ride Rite Airbags off rig - had truck spring shop add 2 extra leafs on each side to my existing OEM leafpack.
4. Realigned w/ bushings for more caster.

My rig drives better then my prior Greyhawk did now. I suspect its b/c my truck shop was able to get 7+ degrees of caster on both front wheels after the added leafs were installed, though I will say the upgraded sway bars definitely can be felt when navigating turns. No more lean.

Just curious, why did you dislike the airbags so much?

[Jopopsy]

I didn't like that, per the manual and my observations, they lost ~4 pounds of air per week. So it was another two items I had to pay attention to when we were getting underway. Also since my rig is in storage most of the time, I couldn't just turn the key and drive off. I'd always have to pump those bags up before I got out on the road.

Then the whole 'how much is too much vs. how much is not enough' thing. Bah - its the suspension I just want it to work and I want to put my foot in the pedal and get on with it. Tire pressures and what not I can understand and handle - but I just can't be bothered screwing around w/ air bags.

To me they're just something else that will break, leak, or otherwise add to the ajada that comes w/ owning an RV. Give me something permanent and no touch like the helper springs or the added leafs.

[cabinetmaker]

Originally Posted by Jopopsy

I didn't like that, per the manual and my observations, they lost ~4 pounds of air per week. So it was another two items I had to pay attention to when we were getting underway. Also since my rig is in storage most of the time, I couldn't just turn the key and drive off. I'd always have to pump those bags up before I got out on the road.

Then the whole 'how much is too much vs. how much is not enough' thing. Bah - its the suspension I just want it to work and I want to put my foot in the pedal and get on with it. Tire pressures and what not I can understand and handle - but I just can't be bothered screwing around w/ air bags.

To me they're just something else that will break, leak, or otherwise add to the ajada that comes w/ owning an RV. Give me something permanent and no touch like the helper springs or the added leafs.

All air bag suspensions I have had on previous Class A had onboard compressors. You would set the ride height / pressure and forget it. I also don't remember them leaking down like that.

I notice you sold your Jayco and are currently in a Forrest River Class C. Did the Forrest River come with the airbags? Curious if others have that same problem?

One important reason we went Jayco was the JRide Plus system. Hellwig helper springs, rubber isolation mounts, bilstein shocks, front and rear stabilizer bars, computer balanced driveshaft.

No other Class C offers this (except Entegra which is made by Jayco) and our Prestige rides and drives great and no I haven't added any of those expensive gadgets to the steering. I mean really, don't you think Ford or Jayco would have added that if it was really that good and worth it?

[Jopopsy]

Yes my FR came w/ the Ride Rite air bags instead of the Hellwig helper springs. I much preferred the Hellwigs. I was going to put them on after market after pulling the air bags, but my truck shop gave me the leaf spring alternative which was only a couple hundred more then the Hellwigs so I went with that. FR and Winnie provide Ride Rites but do not provide the compressor. They are manual fill, one on each side of the coach. I wonder if the on-board compressor automatically topped your bags off based on the pressure you set?

I always wondered if the rubber isolation mounts in the J-Ride package were simply the isolation pucks that come standard on the Ford E-Series Motorhome Prep package:

MOTORHOME PREP PACKAGE
• High-Series Exterior Upgrade Package
• Power door locks and windows
• Manual pedestals
• Cruise control
• Frame pucks
• Cloth sun visors
• Class I Trailer Tow Prep Package

For the record I bought my 2015 Greyhawk b/c the 2016s had the vibration at 62mph problem at the time. My dealer sent that unit to Ford, which then pulled the driveshaft off and sent it to a shop that specializes in the balancing of them. At the time they didn't know about the shim/angle modification for the new transmission so they assumed it was the driveshaft. The 2016's shaft was *not* balanced. Nor was the shaft on the other 2016 that was sent alongside mine.

For the 2015s and 2016s Jayco also marketed the stabilizer bars, however only the rear was a Hellwig, the front was stock.

It always seemed to me that there were elements of that J-Ride package that were embellished. At least from my experience a few years ago.

[cabinetmaker]

Originally Posted by Camper_bob

You must be thinking about the steering damper. A sway bar cannot leak; it is a solid piece of steel.

Yes, the Ford chassis (along with most if not all modern vehicles) comes equipped with a steering DAMPER. The Roadmaster Reflex (and similar other products) is actually a steering STABILIZER. A steering damper is just a shock absorber attached to the tie rod that takes some of the road shock out of the system and dampens lateral movement in the system. It is a shock absorber and works just like the ones on the suspension of the vehicle.

A steering STABILIZER is different. It will offer much more positive or negative pressure on the tie rod. It is generally purposed to allow the driver more control in the event of a front tire blowout by not allowing the steering wheel to pull as violently when that tire blows. It also has the affect of "tightening" up the front steering by disallowing some of the movement. The Roadmaster Reflex is basically a shock with a large spring around it. The shock dampens the steering (just like the OEM shock) and the spring tightens things up in both directions. Think of the difference like a shock versus a strut; the OEM damper is a shock, the stabilizer is more like a strut.

Bottom line to your question is "yes". We are talking about replacing the OEM damper with something better; a stabilizer.

Helper springs: The Greyhawk is equipped with Jayco's "J-Ride Plus" suspension enhancement "system". Part of that package is a product made by Hellwig that is basically a helper spring. This is a supplemental leaf spring pack that is attached ON TOP of the OEM leaf spring pack on the rear suspension. MorRyde (IIRC) modifies the Ford chassis for Jayco. When they build the chassis, they install the Hellwig product at its minimum adjustment specification of 4" above the OEM leaf pack. This kind of makes sense since they have no idea what "house" is going to be put on that chassis. The problem is that Jayco does not adjust anything after they add the house (note this is the same problem with the caster and other alignment adjustments). So the effect is that helper spring is basically doing nothing at that minimum adjustment AFTER the house is added to the chassis. The Hellwig instructions (P/N LP-35) state that the spring can be tightened to within 1/4" of the original leaf pack. If you call Hellwig, they will tell you to adjust down to 2"; I split the middle and went down to 1". Basically it's 4 bolts per side that you tighten, bringing that leaf DOWN closer to the OEM leaf pack thus adding more tension on that leaf and creating more "lift" or load support.

Front Sway Bar: The Ford chassis (along with all non-leaf-sprung vehicles) comes with a front sway bar from the factory. Hellwig makes a product that is an improvement to the OEM Ford front sway bar. In fact another part of the J-Ride Plus package is an upgraded REAR Hellwig sway bar.

I think all of these enhancements and adjustments are nice and somewhat necessary. Ford does not assume the vehicle will live and drive permanently at its GVWR, but our motorhomes most often do just that. So some improvement on the OEM Ford parts and adjustment to the enhancements is greatly beneficial.

Bob, I don't agree with the steering gadgets everyone spends hard earned money on. I have heard from Ford mechanics that will laugh at the sight of those things. I have heard form others who have tried them anyway and thinking they helped at first but then after a few months admitted they really didn't do much if anything.

Think about this. If Ford engineers thought this gadget or something like it would make all this difference don't you think they would include it so they could make the rig safer or easier to drive?

Then there is Jayco. They added a bunch of money in the JRide Plus with top named components but what is missing is this steering gadget. Why? I'll tell you why...it doesn't work!

I know I'll get flamed for this by the ones who bought in and swear by them but before you spend vacation gas money on one of these steering gadgets ask a few mechanics or people who don't sell or install them what they think.

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by cabinetmaker

...snip I mean really, don't you think Ford or Jayco would have added that if it was really that good and worth it?

No, no they wouldn't. At least not at first. From Ford's POV, they don't know what and how the chassis will be used ultimately, so they build for "middle of the road". As noted previously, our coaches live their entire life right at GVWR, so adjustments/enhancements to the system are desirable to cater to specific needs.

How long did they build rigs without the JRide and JRide plus packages? Knowing how beneficial those add-ons are? It wasn't until they could prove the value-added and cost effectiveness of adding those parts that they began to do so. Eventually they may begin adding beefed up stabilizers on their units, if and only if they can make money on that upgrade.

From Jayco's POV, that would cut into their margin. From what I've seen, if they can save even 1/2 a cent in a process, they will cut that corner. Post-fabrication adjustments and alignments are a perfect example. How long would it take for a tech to properly adjust the helper springs? Maybe 10 minutes per unit? Too expensive. How much would it cost for a QC team to go through the unit post-fabrication and check that everything works as it should and as designed? Nope, too expensive.

So, no, Ford and Jayco are not willing to spend even a little bit to make things better than the minimum they NEED to be for the rig to go down the road for 2 years (in Jayco's case) or 3/5 years (in Ford's case). OR, alternatively, until the corners they cut or minimums they meet begin to erode the brand and cost sales. Improvements and product enhancements are generally not made for their intrinsic benefit, they are ONLY made if they can create more profit (either directly or by reducing expense).

Also, I completely agree with Jopopsy regarding the air bags. That's why I didn't install them on my truck back in the day. I like systems to be as "passive" as possible. The more constant or repeated input required from me, the more opportunity for error. I'd rather just set it and completely forget it and keep any system as simple as possible.

Also, I'm going to have to look at my front sway bar again. It seems that people are claiming the JRide Plus includes an upgraded front sway bar? I'm pretty sure mine is OEM. Granted I only briefly looked at it when I was installing my stabilizer, but I could swear it was Ford OEM parts...

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by cabinetmaker

Bob, I don't agree with the steering gadgets everyone spends hard earned money on. I have heard from Ford mechanics that will laugh at the sight of those things. I have heard form others who have tried them anyway and thinking they helped at first but then after a few months admitted they really didn't do much if anything.

Think about this. If Ford engineers thought this gadget or something like it would make all this difference don't you think they would include it so they could make the rig safer or easier to drive?

Then there is Jayco. They added a bunch of money in the JRide Plus with top named components but what is missing is this steering gadget. Why? I'll tell you why...it doesn't work!

I know I'll get flamed for this by the ones who bought in and swear by them but before you spend vacation gas money on one of these steering gadgets ask a few mechanics or people who don't sell or install them what they think.

You are absolutely incorrect. No offense, but you are flat wrong.

I put a Roadmaster Reflex on my chassis, and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that it made a SIGNIFICANT difference. Verifiable, observable FACT, not supposition or interpretation, FACT.

Will it work in ALL situations? Probably not. Do I know why? Nope, I'm an accountant, not an engineer. Your rig and mine are perfect examples; yours drives fine while mine wanders all over the place and if I don't make a sudden and significant correction, I end up on the shoulder when a minivan passes me on the freeway, let alone a big rig. But the stabilizer mitigated that problem and my rig is much easier to control because of it.

And you're wrong about Ford adding a part or making an enhancement to "make the rig safer or easier to drive". That doesn't necessarily directly translate into higher profits for the company. Until it can be proven that it does, it does not get introduced into the system. Furthermore, in many applications the stabilizer would not be necessary or provide any benefit. That's why it's up to the aftermarket to provide the enhancement. Like SO many other vehicles; it's the natural condition of the OEM and the aftermarket.

[cabinetmaker]

Here you go Bob!

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by cabinetmaker

Here you go Bob!

Yup! It clearly states Front AND Rear! Definitely going to have to take another look.

[Jopopsy]

Eh - if we're being particular here it does state front and rear sway bars. It does not state stock or Hellwig.

The same for the rubber isolation mounts. Did they pull the frame pucks that Ford gave for an upgraded part? Or are they using what Ford already put on the chassis w/ the MH prep package?

And as stated earlier, the 2 2016s that I had exposure to did not have balanced drive shafts.

[cabinetmaker]

Bob, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the steering gadgets. They are at best a bandaid covering other problems. And I do think Ford would put them on if it enhanced the suspension which it does not. It just makes the steering work harder.

[Camper_bob]

We don't totally disagree there. I DO agree that it is somewhat of a band-aid. I believe it's true that if the caster is adjusted properly (etc), the wandering problem will be fixed. And in fact, I will test this very theory in the near future. I intend to have my caster adjusted to around +5.5. After that adjustment I will temporarily disable the stabilizer and see what happens. Of course I will report back with whatever I find here on the forum...

But where we will have to disagree is that the steering stabilizer is some kind of "snake oil". Maybe it's just treating the symptoms of another problem, but it works at minimum as a stop gap. I have read HUNDREDS of reviews and user accounts that describe the same experience I have had with these products. I have also read many reviews just like the one you posted above; that it does nothing and is a waste of money.

I think one of the biggest advantages is that these products are purported to allow more control in the event of a front-tire blowout. Assuming that is true, it is money and time well spent. Also, in my case, it's a SIGNIFICANT burden to get my rig to an alignment shop; I was able to bolt on the stabilizer in my driveway in less than an hour with common hand tools. So until I can get that caster adjusted, I will just have to be content with my band-aid...

YMMV, right?

[cabinetmaker]

Originally Posted by Camper_bob

We don't totally disagree there. I DO agree that it is somewhat of a band-aid. I believe it's true that if the caster is adjusted properly (etc), the wandering problem will be fixed. And in fact, I will test this very theory in the near future. I intend to have my caster adjusted to around +5.5. After that adjustment I will temporarily disable the stabilizer and see what happens. Of course I will report back with whatever I find here on the forum...

But where we will have to disagree is that the steering stabilizer is some kind of "snake oil". Maybe it's just treating the symptoms of another problem, but it works at minimum as a stop gap. I have read HUNDREDS of reviews and user accounts that describe the same experience I have had with these products. I have also read many reviews just like the one you posted above; that it does nothing and is a waste of money.

I think one of the biggest advantages is that these products are purported to allow more control in the event of a front-tire blowout. Assuming that is true, it is money and time well spent. Also, in my case, it's a SIGNIFICANT burden to get my rig to an alignment shop; I was able to bolt on the stabilizer in my driveway in less than an hour with common hand tools. So until I can get that caster adjusted, I will just have to be content with my band-aid...

YMMV, right?

Ha! Yep...YMMV is correct Bob. Have a good one and stay safe out there! Always enjoy and appreciate your feedback.

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by cabinetmaker

Ha! Yep...YMMV is correct Bob. Have a good one and stay safe out there! Always enjoy and appreciate your feedback.

Right back at ya buddy!

[Bullitt6283]

Yeah, my 2016 Greyhawk MV had an anti-roll bar in the front. But I measured it, and it's not even 1" diameter. Probably the stock bar for the van body.

My Mustang has a front bar about that size.



I just now finished putting a Helwig front bar on the 29MV. Comparing side by side with the stock bar, the Helwig bar looks monstrous. I haven't driven it yet. We'll see if it helps.


.

[cabinetmaker]

Originally Posted by Bullitt6283

Yeah, my 2016 Greyhawk MV had an anti-roll bar in the front. But I measured it, and it's not even 1" diameter. Probably the stock bar for the van body.

My Mustang has a front bar about that size.



I just now finished putting a Helwig front bar on the 29MV. Comparing side by side with the stock bar, the Helwig bar looks monstrous. I haven't driven it yet. We'll see if it helps.


.

The information I have seems to verify your finding. Jayco website says the JRide Plus comes with a standard front sway bar and a heavy duty rear sway bar.

I would spend the money on the heavy front like you before I would add a steering gadget beyond the factory provided.

[cabinetmaker]

Originally Posted by Jopopsy

Yes my FR came w/ the Ride Rite air bags instead of the Hellwig helper springs. I much preferred the Hellwigs. I was going to put them on after market after pulling the air bags, but my truck shop gave me the leaf spring alternative which was only a couple hundred more then the Hellwigs so I went with that. FR and Winnie provide Ride Rites but do not provide the compressor. They are manual fill, one on each side of the coach. I wonder if the on-board compressor automatically topped your bags off based on the pressure you set?

I always wondered if the rubber isolation mounts in the J-Ride package were simply the isolation pucks that come standard on the Ford E-Series Motorhome Prep package:

MOTORHOME PREP PACKAGE
• High-Series Exterior Upgrade Package
• Power door locks and windows
• Manual pedestals
• Cruise control
• Frame pucks
• Cloth sun visors
• Class I Trailer Tow Prep Package

For the record I bought my 2015 Greyhawk b/c the 2016s had the vibration at 62mph problem at the time. My dealer sent that unit to Ford, which then pulled the driveshaft off and sent it to a shop that specializes in the balancing of them. At the time they didn't know about the shim/angle modification for the new transmission so they assumed it was the driveshaft. The 2016's shaft was *not* balanced. Nor was the shaft on the other 2016 that was sent alongside mine.

For the 2015s and 2016s Jayco also marketed the stabilizer bars, however only the rear was a Hellwig, the front was stock.

It always seemed to me that there were elements of that J-Ride package that were embellished. At least from my experience a few years ago.

I don’t think the frame pucks you mention are the same as the ones Jayco adds on the JRide. Got this from the Jayco website.

[Jimmyd]

I love this forum. A group that debates and actually reads the manuals.
Bob and Cabinetmaker keep up the good fun!!
This has been great reading over my first cup of coffee.
You Texans are good guys. Have fun and keep the info coming.
Also Bob we are finding a little wandering in our steering but nothing that severe as you have had. Tractor Trailers don’t move us but small box trucks do? Strange but after driving many rigs over the years I guess it’s a good ride. I may need to get the alignment done after this trip.
Keep um coming. All good stuff. Jimmyd

[Bama Fan]

I recently installed the Safe-T-Plus steering stabilizer system to my 2017 Jayco Precept 35S. It’s a little pricey, but MAN, WHAT A DIFFERENCE! I can actually let go of the steering wheel, on a straight flat road, and it will steer perfectly straight. The issue with being pushed off the road by passing semis is now minimal.

[Bama Fan]

Yeah, until you blow a steering tire and then you might wish you had one. New and Good tires blow out too. It’s called road debris. Good luck to you!