A/C

[russellmania01]

We have a 2020 Alante 29f and I had to replace the front ac. The unit that was in here was a Coleman Mach 1, 11,000 btu, I replaced it with a Mach 3, 13,500btu power saver. Now I’m having the ac breaker trip. It tripped a little while ago when I turned on the electric water heater. Never had any problems until I replaced the ac unit. Any suggestions.

[Route 66 Traveler]

Mine are on individual breakers, both 20 amps. What size breaker is tripping?

[russellmania01]

It’s a 30 amp

[Route 66 Traveler]

My AC is a 15k. When running it pulls 11-14 amps depending on outside temps. The electric water heater pulls about 14 amps, so both running together would be close to 30. Start up on either would put it over 30.

Stange that your water heater and AC are sharing the same breaker.

Do you have a space open for an additional breaker?

[russellmania01]

Looks like we have 5 open

[Route 66 Traveler]

I would suggest that you contact Jayco and tell them what you have stated here. Ask if it would be permissible to put the WH and the AC on separate 20 amp breakers.

I am not advising you to do it on you own, but I think going to a larger AC has created the problem because a single breaker can't handle the load.

[russellmania01]

Thanks for the replies it’s much appreciated. I will contact Jayco and see what they say.

[Foretm]

The 13.5K pulls about .3amps more than the 11K, so it should not be the issue. You said your water heater and your AC are on the same breaker? That makes no sense. Your entire motorhome should be a 30amp coach with an energy management system. Is the energy management system working properly? If you pull too much electricity, it should turn off the water heater, the fridge, the rear ac compressor, and the front AC compressor in that order until the overage is handled.



Can you confirm which breaker is tripping? The one outside on the pedestal or one inside? If inside which one the main? Can you confirm if you are a 30amp or 50am coach? Assuming 30amp, is the EMS functioning properly? How did you determine that the water heater and AC are on the same breaker? Who replaced the AC, you or a shop?

[russellmania01]

Apparently the main breaker has a 30 amp leg and a 15 amp leg and the 30 amp is the one that trips. According to the way it’s listed on the breaker box the water heater is not on the same breaker as the ac. Guess the EMS isn’t working and I’m not sure how to check it. I installed the ac myself.

[Route 66 Traveler]

Originally Posted by russellmania01

Apparently the main breaker has a 30 amp leg and a 15 amp leg and the 30 amp is the one that trips. According to the way it’s listed on the breaker box the water heater is not on the same breaker as the ac. Guess the EMS isn’t working and I’m not sure how to check it. I installed the ac myself.

That statement has me confused. Questions: Is your coach powered by 30 amps or 50 amps? Are you plugged into shore power at a campground or your house, or running off a generator? Is your EMS portable or hardwired?
Any chance you can post a photo of your breakers in the power center?

Was the AC you installed brand new or used?

[Foretm]

Originally Posted by russellmania01

Apparently the main breaker has a 30 amp leg and a 15 amp leg and the 30 amp is the one that trips. According to the way it’s listed on the breaker box the water heater is not on the same breaker as the ac. Guess the EMS isn’t working and I’m not sure how to check it. I installed the ac myself.

You should be a 30amp coach, in which case, you have a single 30amp leg. So based on your reply, still have some outstanding questions before we can help. See below the ones not answered.

Can you confirm which breaker is tripping? The one outside on the pedestal or one inside? No clear answer

If inside which one the main? No Clear answer

Can you confirm if you are a 30amp or 50amp coach? No clear answer

Assuming 30amp, is the EMS functioning properly? No clear answer


The 2020 Alante 29f should be a 30amp coach with an energy management system that disables specific loads (WH, Fridge, Rear AC, Front AC) if the amps being pulled by the RV is above 30. It will disable these loads in the order you see them above and it does so pretty quickly, preventing the pedestal breaker from tripping most times. This EMS is hardwired from the factory and you should have a panel in the coach that shows the status. This EMS is not to be confused with something like the progressive Industries EMS used to determine faulty wiring, low and high voltage, and other issues at the pedestal.


We're trying to help, but we need specific answers to our questions so we know which direction to go.

[russellmania01]

The coach is 30amp and the main breaker inside is the one that’s tripping. It has a Power Control System Panel that shows how much amp’s is being supplied to the coach and if the wh, frig, back ac and the front ac are being powered and I assume that is the energy management system. It didn’t manage very well because it shut the whole coach down. I put the water heater on propane so it’s been working that way. I will try to add a picture of the main breaker, I’m not real savvy about electricity but I think it’s kind of strange that the breaker would have a 30 and 15 amp together. I appreciate the help we’re trying to have a little vacation at Jellystone park in Burleson Tx and it’s pretty warm here.

[craigav]

Originally Posted by russellmania01

The coach is 30amp and the main breaker inside is the one that’s tripping. It has a Power Control System Panel that shows how much amp’s is being supplied to the coach and if the wh, frig, back ac and the front ac are being powered and I assume that is the energy management system. It didn’t manage very well because it shut the whole coach down. I put the water heater on propane so it’s been working that way. I will try to add a picture of the main breaker, I’m not real savvy about electricity but I think it’s kind of strange that the breaker would have a 30 and 15 amp together. I appreciate the help we’re trying to have a little vacation at Jellystone park in Burleson Tx and it’s pretty warm here.

From what I have read here, everything is working as it should. There isn't an issue with the type of breaker you have, and there isn't an unexpected issue that the A/C and the Water Heater together would trip a 30a breaker. Your plan to not run the A/C and WH together is the best plan. ~CA

[russellmania01]

We have had them run together ever since we have had the coach and never had a problem so for us it was unexpected. When the ac shuts down and it’s 102 or 103 outside it’s time to panic and I did. I have five kids and two dogs to worry about. When we leave the coach I turn everything off but the front ac.

[craigav]

Originally Posted by russellmania01

We have had them run together ever since we have had the coach and never had a problem so for us it was unexpected. When the ac shuts down and it’s 102 or 103 outside it’s time to panic and I did. I have five kids and two dogs to worry about. When we leave the coach I turn everything off but the front ac.

If I read your comments correctly, the setup you have now with a larger A/C is a recent change, in any case, you are pulling more power than the 30A breaker will allow for on a continuous basis which isn't unexpected. Previously with the slightly smaller A/C you were pulling a little less current.

To know for sure, you could purchase a clamp style voltage\amp meter, but in this case, having a meter would simply confirm what I am saying and wouldn't fix anything, however having such a meter can be very useful if you don't have one already. ~CA

[Foretm]

Originally Posted by craigav

From what I have read here, everything is working as it should. There isn't an issue with the type of breaker you have, and there isn't an unexpected issue that the A/C and the Water Heater together would trip a 30a breaker. Your plan to not run the A/C and WH together is the best plan. ~CA

Respectfully, I disagree here. I have a very similar 30amp coach with the energy management system and I run my water heater exclusively on electric and both ACs. I'm in the Florida Keys right now for the last few months and not once have I popped a breaker internally or externally. I would watch your EMS panel and see if any loads are being shed when both ACs are running. If not, then it may be that the wiring on the EMS is not right.



When you installed the AC in the front, did you do any wiring changes in the panel? Also, when you have the energy management system, it will turn off the compressor, but not the fan. I'm guessing at this point that there may be two hot legs going to the AC one for the fan and one for the compressor. It may be that they were hooked up backwards or somehow combined in such a way that the EMS can no longer shed the front AC load.


Also, what else are you running in the coach that may pull alot of amperage? Air Fryer, hair dryer, curling iron, etc...? I'm wondering if you have something else pulling alot of electric and the EMS is trying to shed everything and is unable to shed the front AC so the breaker trips.

[Foretm]

Originally Posted by russellmania01

We have had them run together ever since we have had the coach and never had a problem so for us it was unexpected. When the ac shuts down and it’s 102 or 103 outside it’s time to panic and I did. I have five kids and two dogs to worry about. When we leave the coach I turn everything off but the front ac.

Exactly, so the only change seems to be the AC replacement. The difference in amperage draw from the 11k to the 13.5k is .3amps. My money is on a wiring issue since the EMS can control the compressor, so you may have two wires going to the AC (one controled by the EMS and one not). If they were combined or wired backward, it would cause this.

[craigav]

Originally Posted by Foretm

Respectfully, I disagree here. I have a very similar 30amp coach with the energy management system and I run my water heater exclusively on electric and both ACs. I'm in the Florida Keys right now for the last few months and not once have I popped a breaker internally or externally. I would watch your EMS panel and see if any loads are being shed when both ACs are running. If not, then it may be that the wiring on the EMS is not right.



When you installed the AC in the front, did you do any wiring changes in the panel? Also, when you have the energy management system, it will turn off the compressor, but not the fan. I'm guessing at this point that there may be two hot legs going to the AC one for the fan and one for the compressor. It may be that they were hooked up backwards or somehow combined in such a way that the EMS can no longer shed the front AC load.


Also, what else are you running in the coach that may pull alot of amperage? Air Fryer, hair dryer, curling iron, etc...? I'm wondering if you have something else pulling alot of electric and the EMS is trying to shed everything and is unable to shed the front AC so the breaker trips.

I appreciate respectful disagreements, as that is what is important to obtain deeper understandings for all.

In this case, and as well a respectful disagreement, a 11k btu a/c of the same type and manufacture of a 13.5k a/c runs about 2.5~3 amps more current. For example take a look at the specs for the Coleman line Mach 1 (11k) vs Mach 10 (13.5k) and you will see that the running watts are 1080 (11k) and 1410 (13.5k), so 330 watts difference and at 115v that equates to 2.87 amp difference. This difference increases further though as the temperature and humidity rises, and also even more so if the voltage drops a few volts (or more).

With this in mind, and a quick check for my water heater indicates that a replacement element is 1440w, added to the 1410 a/c watts brings you to 2850w total. At 120v the 30a circuit breaker can support a continuous load of 2880w, however at 115v the breaker can only support a continuous load of 2760w. So in this case the wattage being used is just at or slightly higher than what a 30a breaker can continuously provide without tripping. Keep in mind that a common circuit breaker will trip with time if the current exceeds 80% of the breakers rating (30a breaker supports up to 24a continuous current).

Considering that there are likely other items running (lower wattage usage but none the less) such as the converter, fridge, tv, etc. it would be easy to determine that even if the A/C isn't pulling more watts due to higher ambient temps (which they can easily require another ~300w or more in very hot conditions), that there isn't enough overhead to support the A/C and the Water Heater Element together, especially with a few other items running, without tripping a 30a breaker.

The point you made about the EMS though is relevant and I don't have one on mine, if you are saying that the EMS should turn off the water heater or the A/C and isn't doing so, that certainly could be the case. My comment was and is more particular to running a 13.5k btu A/C and an Electric Water Heater at the same time which certainly wouldn't be unexpected that doing so would trip a 30a breaker which would be normal and should be expected, especially when the ambient temperature and humidity is high and other items are also using power. ~CA

[Foretm]

Originally Posted by craigav

I appreciate respectful disagreements, as that is what is important to obtain deeper understandings for all.

100%... respect is the only way.

Originally Posted by craigav

In this case, and as well a respectful disagreement, a 11k btu a/c of the same type and manufacture of a 13.5k a/c runs about 2.5~3 amps more current. For example take a look at the specs for the Coleman line Mach 1 (11k) vs Mach 10 (13.5k) and you will see that the running watts are 1080 (11k) and 1410 (13.5k), so 330 watts difference and at 115v that equates to 2.87 amp difference. This difference increases further though as the temperature (ambient temp) rises and also even more if the voltage drops a few volts (or more).

I disagree, see image below attached directly from airexcel website for the power saver series. Assumming the OP purchased and installed the 13.5K PS series as initially inicated, then the difference in amperage is .3 or 36w @120v. I've done extensive research on this as I have the same 11k ACs and i'm thinking of doing the same "upgrade" to the 13.5K PS.

Originally Posted by craigav

With this in mind, and a quick check for my water heater indicates that a replacement element is 1440w, added to the 1410 a/c watts brings you to 2850w total. At 120v the 30a circuit breaker can support a continuous load of 2880w, however at 115v the breaker can only support a continuous load of 2760w. So in this case the wattage being used is just at or slightly higher than what a 30a breaker can continuously provide without tripping. Keep in mind that a common circuit breaker will trip with time if the current exceeds 80% of the breakers rating (30a breaker supports up to 24a continuous current).

I completely agree, if all these items are running at once, you will pop the breaker. Where I disagree, is that these coaches have a Precision Circuits Power Control System Energy Management System (EMS) which will automatically shed loads when the amperage is over the rated amperage for the coach. In doing so, it will shed the Water Heater, Refrigerator, Rear AC Compressor, and front AC Compressor in that order in < 2 seconds. Its important to note that the AC fans continue to run when these loads are shed so as to minimize disruption as the loads that typically put you over are transient in nature, like the microwave. The link above is a demo of the unit and you can choose the input electrical and start adding loads and you'll see it shed as needed. Feel free to play around with it to get familiar.

Originally Posted by craigav

The point you made about the EMS though is relevant and I don't have one on mine, if you are saying that the EMS should turn off the water heater or the A/C and isn't doing so, that certainly could be the case. My comment was and is more particular to running a 13.5k btu A/C and an Electric Water Heater at the same time which certainly wouldn't be unexpected that doing so would trip a 30a breaker which would be normal and should be expected, especially when the ambient temperature is high. ~CA

I believe this is the key distinction. *IF* the power control center is working properly, even if the front AC is pulling more than normal, what you would find is that the EMS would shed the water heater, the fridge, the rear AC, and if necessary the front AC to keep the amps below 30. So.... my contention is that it cant be working properly, because it would shed the front AC as well before the breaker trips if needed. Unless, its not wired properly during the replacement, then it may not be able to shed it, which would cause it to trip. I don't know how the EMS cuts power to the compressors and keeps the fans going, but my assumption is that there may be two lines from the panel to the AC, one that is "managed" (through the EMS) and one that is not. If these lines were combined or swapped you could be in a situation where the front AC can't be shed (combined) or worse where the compressor is running when the fan is not (swapped).

One other option is that the main breaker is weak is tripping before it should, but since this is new after the AC replacement, my money is on the EMS not wired right/not working properly.

[craigav]

Keep in mind that certainly some air conditioners are more efficient than others, I suspect everyone would agree with that, but also keep in mind that what you shared is what I call "High Level" specs and are likely listed for the power consumption under ideal conditions.

If you notice here with what I shared, the wattage for the exact air conditioner (earlier I compared a Mach 10 instead of Mach 3 PS), that the running wattage would *(should) be 1320 watts at 100 degrees and low humidity (Desert conditions). However, the OP is not in Desert Conditions as the temp reported was higher than 100 and while not mentioned, the humidity was likely a lot higher than what would be expected in Desert conditions. With this in mind, the true wattage draw would likely be higher than what is listed here >(~1320w).

It is less important to compare previous conditions other than to note that the previous A/C likely pulled less current under the same conditions, how much less is a moving target, what is more important is how much current draw exists at the time the breaker breaks, and in this case the answer is that a high level calculation reveals that there is more current being drawn than what the breaker can support. Even one amp (~120w) can make all the difference between a breaker breaking or not. To be precise though an amp\voltage meter would be needed.

In any case, I don't suggest that an EMS that is supposed to turn off the Water Heater or A/C and isn't doing so is functioning as designed, however I am saying that powering a water heater along with even the exact A/C that the OP purchased, especially along with even a few lower wattage appliances, will exceed the capacity of a 30a breaker especially in high heat and likely lower voltage scenarios. Something will need to be turned off either by the OP or the EMS... or the main breaker will turn everything off for you.

In any case, it do agree that if the EMS is supposed to shed the load and isn't doing so, that should be checked into.

~CA