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Old 07-20-2020, 02:56 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Eagle View Post
In my post I mentioned: "........loaded tongue weight on a Toyhauler can very (more than a TT) depending on how it's used (with/without toys). With TH's load placement is critical."

Yes, "empty" TH will have a heavier tongue weight than a "loaded" one.., but axle locations, TH length, and toy weight/placement influence the empty to loaded tongue weight delta.

In both of my "hypothetical" examples with the "500lb cargo" only, and the "500lb cargo with the added 1,000lb golf cart", both loads would have to be located resulting in a loaded tongue weight within the 13% to 15% range.

TH's require a little more forethought in "load" placement than TT's & FW's when it comes to addressing tongue or pin weights. Another weight consideration with TH's is the size/location of the fuel tank, if one uses it.

Hope this addresses your question.

Bob
Yep, thanks. Not using the fuel tank, will also not load fresh water. Have seen some folks say they add weight to the front when hauling toys, I think they said water in the fresh water tank but not sure. My plan is IF I do buy this I will buy a Sherline scale so I know exactly where to place my golf cart or what the TW is without a toy and adjust as necessary.
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Old 07-20-2020, 03:00 PM   #42
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Maybe we will cross paths in Texas with your new Toyhauler...., I spend time in the Kerrville, TX. area during the winter months.

Bob
Forgot to ask, do you ever get over to Fredricksburg? Great town and has a couple RV parks nearby, we stay at one just on the south edge of town. I like it better than Kerrville but haven't really spent much there.
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Old 07-20-2020, 03:01 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Texdan25 View Post
Yep, thanks. Not using the fuel tank, will also not load fresh water. Have seen some folks say they add weight to the front when hauling toys, I think they said water in the fresh water tank but not sure. My plan is IF I do buy this I will buy a Sherline scale so I know exactly where to place my golf cart or what the TW is without a toy and adjust as necessary.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the fresh water tank sits over the axles usually...yes? The unit I'm looking to buy has a 100gal fresh water tank (and 10gal heater tank). That's 110 x 8.2lbs = 900lbs of water. That's a hella lot of weight. How do people boondock?
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Old 07-20-2020, 03:20 PM   #44
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Texdan,

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snip...... My plan is IF I do buy this I will buy a Sherline scale so I know exactly where to place my golf cart or what the TW is without a toy and adjust as necessary.
I have one as well..., great product.

Quote:
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Forgot to ask, do you ever get over to Fredricksburg.....snip
Yes, couple times each winter..., and camped at a couple of the CG's in Fredricksbug over the years prior to arriving at my destination of Johnson Creek RV Resort in Ingram.

Bob
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Old 07-20-2020, 03:31 PM   #45
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blakei,

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So what I think I'll do (today !):
* See if I can shift some cargo (there's not much) to get 100-200 lbs off the tongue and be around 13%
* Adjust the WDH to get another 200-300 lbs back to the steer axle and off the drive axle. Maybe, possibly replace it with a 1200lber.
* Reweigh at CAT scale (about 30 mi away)
* Give it a few tows and see how it is. I apologize for being the guy going 45-55mph on the freeway!
* If it's still sketchy, either downsize trailer or upsize truck (prob can sell 1/2 ton to my father in law).

..........snip.......

(Lastly, I'll post some new CAT certs and updates so others can learn too.)
Do let us know your towing results based on your to-do list. As always, CAT Certs are great for open discussion.

I apologize for the thread highjacking, can happen from time-to-time when discussing towing "weights"

Bob
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Old 07-20-2020, 03:52 PM   #46
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blakei,



Do let us know your towing results based on your to-do list. As always, CAT Certs are great for open discussion.

I apologize for the thread highjacking, can happen from time-to-time when discussing towing "weights"

Bob
Oh crap, me too about the hijacking. I was thinking I was the OP!
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Old 08-07-2020, 06:06 PM   #47
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Hi all-

Thanks again for the advice and comments on this thread. We just returned from a 3500 mile, 3 week road-trip, and everything worked out fine! Thatís why I hadnít seen some of the comments or replied. Thought Iíd share a (long) update. Breaking this into 3 posts for length.

Hereís what I ended up doing about tongue weight:
  • Bought a Sherline tongue scale so I could learn at home. First weigh showed ~1200 lbs which was in line with CAT scales. (jhaan we think alike)
  • Although we didnít have ďmuchĒ in the pass through storage, I removed most of it and added it all up. Ended up weighing about 200 lbs. I left some behind, and then we bought some plastic storage bins for the things we wanted to take, and I loaded those over the axles in the aisle of the trailer (a bit of a pain butÖ). Itís amazing how fast the weight adds up. An empty bin is 7 lbs, a sack of charcoal is 15, etc. Without thinking about it you can really add weight.
  • I put the generator in the under-bunk storage in the back of the trailer. It weighs about 100 lbs.
  • Biggest learning: 100 lb removed from pass through comes equally off the tongue weight. 100 lb ďballastĒ weight at the back of the trailer also takes 100 lb off the tongue weight. So basically 1-1, which makes it easier to balance things out.
  • I was able to get to about 1000 lbs tongue weight. Honestly, the scale would be +/- 25 lbs each time, and given how easy it is to add weight, I called that close enough. I also realized that the truck wasnít going to break with an extra accidental 50 lbs of tongue weight. I probably ended up closer to 1050 or 1100 by throwing in random things toward the end (wheel chocks, cheater bar, etc.)
  • I did consider removing a propane tank to save about 55 pounds of weight on the tongue. However, I wasnít sure how much propane weíd need -- ends up we didnít even use a single full tank so maybe I'll do that in the future. I also thought about removing one battery but decided I didnít want to muck with the electrical just before the trip.
  • I did remove my tonneau cover to save about 85 lbs of payload weight on the truck.
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Old 08-07-2020, 06:13 PM   #48
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What I did about the hitch:
  • I readjusted the hitch myself. Had to buy some big new wrenches, aw, shucks. :-)
  • I put in two more washers (grade 8 from Home Despot). I measured the hitch head angle and got it to about 7 degrees from horizontal. The additional washer moved it closer to 9 degrees and it looked pretty tilted, so I stayed with 2 washers.
  • The L brackets had been installed with 3 holes open at the bottom of the bracket. I moved them up to have only 1 hole at the bottom.
  • Went to the CAT scale and measured with the +2 washers and 1 hole open. Weights were steer=3480, drive=3040, trailer=7100. It was almost impossible to get the truck up high enough to put the spring bars on at the first setting, so while at the CAT scale, I lowered the L bracket by another hole, and re-weighed, and got to steer=3360, drive=3180, trailer=7040. I was happy with those numbers and so thatís what I stayed with.
  • Lastly, after adjusting the WDH, I installed Timber Grove airbags, which sit next to the coil spring in place of the bump stock. Inflated to 15 PSI they remove the 1-2Ē of sag I was still getting. As a bonus, I can inflate them to 30-40 PSI while hitching / attaching weight bars, and that lifts the truck up 5-6Ē which is easier on the jack.
One of the gas stations along our road trip had a CAT scale, so I had a chance to weigh the whole rig fully loaded. We were carrying about 200 lbs of water (1/3 tank) along with the final packed stuff. My weights were steer=3440, drive=3640, trailer=7540. I didnít disconnect and weigh, but back-of-envelope math based on the prior weighs gives me loaded trailer=8300, tongue=1250, GVWR=7080, and payload=1950. Iím 11% less than the axle ratings, right at GVWR, but about 200 pounds over payload.

I do think the Fastway e2 1000 / 10000 hitch is undersized. The arms are pretty sprung, the truck has to get up high to get hitched, and the L brackets are showing a lot of wear already. I think I will change to the Equalizer 4-point trunnion bar 1200/12000 hitch in the coming weeks. Any comments on this welcome!
Attached Thumbnails
washers_IMG-6257.jpg   hitch_head_tilt_IMG-6262.jpg   hitched_1hole_IMG-6269.jpg   CAT Scale_20200705_wdh_connected_1hole_IMG-6971.jpg   CAT Scale_20200705_wdh_connected_2holes_IMG-6972.jpg  

CAT Scale_20200705_wdh_disconnected_IMG-6973.jpg   CAT Scale_20200705_truck_only_IMG-6974.jpg   timber_grove_bags_IMG-6960.jpg   l_bracket_wear_IMG-6977.jpg  
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Old 08-07-2020, 06:16 PM   #49
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Driving Experience

We had a reasonable enough driving experience. Going up Sierra Nevada grades at 6%+ at 7000+ feet of elevation tasked the truck. Was doing 50 in 5th if lucky, often dropped down to 4th at 45 and even 3rd a couple of times (8 speed tranny, 3.92 rear end). I pulled out to let traffic by. Going down grades was better; the truck did really well with compression braking and shifting automatically in tow/haul mode, and I used the gear limiter. Never felt out of control and was able to burn off 10mph at a time with brakes as needed, but honestly I was able to stay off the brakes for almost the entire grade. (I did start out very slow, around 45 MPH, so I wasnít trying to brake down from high speeds ever).

I did encounter pretty good ďpushing.Ē Iím not sure if itís ďsway.Ē If a cross-wind gusted, Iíd definitely feel the trailer move, and then the truck, but it corrected easily and didnít start going back-and-forth. Semiís that passed me on I-15 going 80MPH (unreal speed limit on I15), when I was going 65 MPH, definitely sucked the trailer over and I had to steer out of it. Iím not sure if this is normal, or if this is the kind of thing that is lessened by a 2500/3500 truck.

Choppy pavement is horrible. Unfortunately, thereís a lot of it in California. Leads to not fun driving/riding sensations such as porpoising, wallowing, hammering etc. Worst is old concrete segmented highways that have height differences between segments, plus potholes, because then you get stuck in a pattern of bumps.

Itís no fun to pull in windy conditions -- and it is always windy. :-) Worst is a strong headwind -- at times Iíd be in 5th gear doing no more than 55 MPH. At one point I was going down a slight grade (3%?) and just coasted, and the wind slowed the truck to about 35MPH!!

At the moment, Iím comfortable enough with this setup. We have a few destination trips planned the rest of the year, and I think this will work for us for 6-8 trips a year. I do somewhat wish weíd gotten the 24BHS (like jhaan) but the DW likes this floorplan. I suspect after a couple of years weíll learn more and up or downsize either the TT or TV.

Thanks again for the advice!
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Old 08-07-2020, 06:18 PM   #50
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Summary:

To reduce tongue weight:
  • Donít put stuff in pass through
  • Heavy stuff over axles
  • Counter weight in back of trailer
  • Remove propane / battery

But donít remove too much weight!

Next time: buy a smaller trailer or a bigger truck. :-)
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Old 08-07-2020, 08:37 PM   #51
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blakei,

Quote:
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snip...... Next time: buy a smaller trailer or a bigger truck. :-)
I would tend to agree.

I'm impressed with your time investment and effort on evaluating your TV/TT combination.... a wealth of information

Just a couple initial thoughts from your review......

* I agree, the 4-point Equal-i-zer WDH rated at 1,200lbs "minimum" would be a much better choice.

* The premature wear on the "L" bracket may be due to the fact that the spring bar isn't moving "flat" across the "L" bracket leg surface (adjustment issue). This condition can compromise effective integrated sway control if not addressed.

* I agree, a 3/4 ton TV would notably enhance TT handling.

* Target a 13% to 15% loaded tongue weight range, very important with your present TV/TT combo.

Again, a lot of great information for others to reference as well!

Bob
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Old 08-07-2020, 08:44 PM   #52
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Bob,

You are a wealth of information on this forum!
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Old 08-07-2020, 09:56 PM   #53
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Thanks, Bob! I actually would prefer to downsize the trailer as it was hard to get into camping spots at some campgrounds due to the length and maneuverability. That said, I saw a LOT of smaller trailers pulled with a 3/4 truck.

Do you think a 14K hitch is better than the 12K? Iím pretty sure the wear on the e2 is due to not-flat bars, as itís over adjusted to distribute enough weight and the bars arenít level. Itís a 10K hitch.
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Old 08-08-2020, 01:09 AM   #54
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Here I shared some observations related to TW on 28DSBH

https://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f...ger-44430.html
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Old 08-08-2020, 08:04 AM   #55
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Thanks for the post, bono. Super interesting how the weight on the truck decreases at the stringer relative to the jack and ball. Maybe I should weld on a 2' extension. ;-)
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Old 08-08-2020, 08:29 AM   #56
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blakei,

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snip..... I actually would prefer to downsize the trailer as it was hard to get into camping spots at some campgrounds due to the length and maneuverability.....snip
I was considering 'going bigger' than my retired 278FBS Eagle, but knew I would have issues at some of my favorite National and State forest campgrounds, decided to go 'smaller' with my 2018 24RBS...., glad I did.

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snip.......Do you think a 14K hitch is better than the 12K?........snip
A 1,400lb rated WDH (14K) wouldn't be overkill and would be the way I would go. A 1,200lb rated WDH (minimum) would work based on your loading habits, present TV weight limits, etc....., but a 1,400lb WDH would cover all the weight possibilities of your TT.

Your TT has a 8,750lb GVWR......., so under worst case loaded at 8,750lbs = 1,1375lbs to 1,312lbs (13% to 15%) recommended loaded tongue weight range, thus a 1,400lb rated WDH would be recommended.

I still use my 14 year old Reese Dual Cam HP WDH rated at 1,500lbs...., my prior Eagle had a 1,300lb loaded tongue weight and my present Jay Flight has a 1,100lb loaded tongue weight....., the WDH works great. I tend to load on the heavy side.

The key with any WDH is proper adjustment.

Bob
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Old 08-09-2020, 08:03 AM   #57
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This post answered my question whether to get a 28BH or not. Looks like ill be going to a jayfeather 24BH.
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Old 08-28-2020, 12:04 AM   #58
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Hi all, minor update here. I took Rustic Eagle's advice and switched over to a 1400/14000 Equalizer 4-point WDH (rather than 12/12k). Set it up last weekend and went back through the CAT scales to check adjustment.

We'd just come back from a week long trip and hadn't unloaded and had empty tanks, so was a pretty good representation of a normal trip weight. My Sherline tongue scale indicated 1000 lbs, but the CAT scale calcs tell me 1140. Horseshoes, I guess. TT weighed 8140 lbs, so that puts me at 14% tongue weight.

It was a pretty windy day when I went to the scales and was a short tow (60 mi round trip), but I do think the Equalizer improved the sway control. Will have to take a longer trip to evaluate (October maybe...).

I'm still at/slightly above the payload/GVWR for my 1/2 ton but well below axle ratings and GCWR. We came home down highway 168 from Shaver Lake, which is a 10 mile 6% grade and had absolutely no issues.

Scale reading attached for those interested. Thanks again for the comments and hope this is helpful to others!
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Old 08-28-2020, 02:48 AM   #59
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blakei,

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snip....... My Sherline tongue scale indicated 1000 lbs, but the CAT scale calcs tell me 1140. Horseshoes, I guess. TT weighed 8140 lbs, so that puts me at 14% tongue weight......snip
Sherline and CAT delta shouldn't be that great...., was the TT level and slide(s) closed with the Sherline reading?

Great job reducing your loaded tongue weight from 1,220lbs down to 1,140lbs (14% is ideal)......, worked in your TV's favor.

Quote:
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snip....... It was a pretty windy day when I went to the scales and was a short tow (60 mi round trip), but I do think the Equalizer improved the sway control......snip
Not surprised that the Equalizer 1,400 would enhance TV handling. It will also maintain reliable weight distribution, and provide better support with the Ram 1/2 ton rear coil suspension (minimize porpoising) than your prior Fastway e2 1,000.

Bob
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Old 08-28-2020, 11:40 PM   #60
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was the TT level and slide(s) closed with the Sherline reading?

Good question... the slide was closed, but the TT was not quite level L-R as I was on the side of the street in front of our house and it is crowned. Perhaps that was it...


I looked up a couple of used 3/4 ton trucks and found that their payload is not that much better than mine, perhaps 100-300 lbs more. So for now, sticking with the 1/2 ton!
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