Safety issue I never thought of...

[shrpshtr]

Hey All,

Wanted to share an experience we had on our last softball trip/camping outing. We were staying in NMB and left for the morning for an early game. As often is the case with softball tourneys, your next game time/field depends on the results of your last game. So, we had a break and headed back for a good cast iron skillet-cooked homemade cheeseburger. After lunch, we headed back and ended up being at the park the remainder of the day. That's really not that big of a deal nor very uncommon. After a late supper, we arrived back to the campground around 10p. What we got back to was scary to say the least. As soon as we got out of the truck, we heard the beeping. Sure enough, it was coming from our TT. When I opened the door our 100lb Lab came barreling down the steps and waft of propane hit me like a wall. I couldn't believe how bad it smelled and how dense the air in the camper seemed. I made the ladies stay outside while I investigated. What I found was the middle knob on the stove had been turned to "lite" and was bellowing gas into the camper freely. (I later learned from our neighbor they noticed the alarm about 4p. So, it had to be free-flowing for at least 6 hours.) We quickly opened all of the windows and doors and it took about 15 minutes to get the air cleared enough that the alarm cut off. Surprisingly the propane smell didn't linger in the camper and by the morning there was, and has not been since, any sign of the smell in the camper. What appears to have happened is that my lab was interested in seeing if we left him a cheeseburger in the skillet so he put his paws up on the stove to visually inspect. Upon his inspection, his paw must have raked down on the knob cutting it on. That is the ONLY possible way that knob could have been turned on as the stove was definitely off. We ate lunch in the camper after cooking for at least 30 minutes and we would have definitely noticed the smell.

We are so thankful in so many ways. A million bad things could have happened: an explosion, fire, dog could have suffocated from the fumes, and countless others. What perplexed me is why we didn't get a call that our TT had an alarm going off for 6 hours. We leave an emergency contact # on the door because our dog often stays alone in the camper while we're out and about. As much gas as was in that camper, an explosion would have probably taken out every camper within 1 full site of ours so at least 4 or 5 others. To say we were lucky might be the understatement of the year. We made notes of how to prevent this in the future including not leaving pans on the stove, leaving a vent fan running at all times, making a point to speak to neighbors and ask to be contacted for loss of power, alarms, or barking dog, and many others. We feel comfortable and will continue to leave the dog alone as he is extremely well behaved and we believe this to be a fluke.

I know it's long winded, but I thought the details were applicable to help everyone understand how easily these types of scenarios can occur. For the sake of discussion, would you contact someone if you heard an alarm or other possible urgent situation in their RV? Or at least the front office to try and contact the owner? Anyone ever have to act in this type of situation?

shrp

[Midnightmoon]

First and foremost, I'm happy that nothing worse happened in this situation.

To specifically answer your question, I personally would attempt to contact the owner or assist in the situation as best that I could (contact the campground, police, fire department, etc). However, I feel that I'm in the minority in 2017. My wife will even say to me at times that I should "mind my own business" and "don't get involved" when I see something happening that is out of the ordinary or potentially dangerous. I believe that much of our population is so afraid of being sued or causing themselves trouble, that they choose to look the other way.

As I have mentioned in other threads concerning dogs and camping, I choose to leave our dog at a kennel or with his trainer when we travel instead of taking him with us. As a little side hobby, I have owned, and handled high end German Shepherd Dogs for the better part of the last 25 years. As much as I love my dogs and trust them in their training, I will not bring them anywhere where I have to leave them unattended. Please don't get me wrong, I would love to, but there are just too many things that can happen.

[SouthCo]

Maybe a good take away is if you leave a dog in a camper to shut the propane off at the tanks.

I don’t have animals but I can’t imagine leaving them in a camper for those lengths of time. But that’s another topic. Glad everyone and the dog were ok...

[bankr63]

Originally Posted by SouthCo

Maybe a good take away is if you leave a dog in a camper to shut the propane off at the tanks.

I don’t have animals but I can’t imagine leaving them in a camper for those lengths of time. But that’s another topic. Glad everyone and the dog were ok...

Or install a gas shutoff valve for the stove if you need the propane for the fridge.

[norty1]

Thanks for the heads up. We leave our dogs inside for no more than a few hours but they are to small to reach the stove. They do like to shred the trash though.
We have had a propane alarm that was caused by one of us bumping one of the gas valves on the stove. We were there and smelled it about the same time the alarm went off.

These things are good to make others aware of. We now always look at the gas range valves as we close the door.

It would not be a bad idea to install a gas valve on the stove input somewhere that would be easy to access.

[ROC-REQS]

Originally Posted by shrpshtr

... For the sake of discussion, would you contact someone if you heard an alarm or other possible urgent situation in their RV? Or at least the front office to try and contact the owner? Anyone ever have to act in this type of situation?

shrp.

Thanks for sharing your story. After reading it I think I'm more likely to investigate someone's trailer if an urgent situation arises.

Never thought about putting an emergency contact # on the trailer, that's a good idea.

I know when we leave for any length of time I always turn off the water and roll up the awning. Now I'm wondering does it also make sense to turn off the LP tanks.

[need-a-vacation]

Glad everything worked out ok and the dog is fine!!!

As for a “rig filled with propane”, it actually needs to have about 2-10% propane for anything to happen. Less than 2% and it’s not enough, more than 10% and it’s to concentrated with not enough O2. But like anyone else, I’d rather not find out the hard way!!!

If there is ever another situation like this for anyone that you suspect a gas leak inside the rig, shut the tanks off and unhook the power (110v and 12v) before ever going inside!!! It will help eliminate an ignition source, and the leak. By opening the door and allowing fresh air in, it could bring you back down into the range of explosion for propane.

As mentioned, a shut off for the stove only, or shutting the tanks off may not be a bad idea. And possibly having a hidden key that a neighbor/ park manager/ ranger you trust could get to.

[Bassdogs]

Unfortunately we experienced a different but similar situation just a month ago. I had finished several maintanence and repairs on the W Hawk parked behind my house where it lives when we are not traveling. When I finished DW did her thing and gave everything a good cleaning including the fridge, stove, kitchen island etc.. When she finished she closed up and went on to other chores. The next day [almost 24 hours after she closed the TT door] I was working by the barn and got a wiff of propane and the only source was the TT parked about 50 feet away. After checking at the tanks [nothing] I went to the door and before I opened, it was obvious. Immediately closed the valves on the tanks. Forgot about cutting off the shore power and entered. That's when I heard the propane alarm. Opened several windows and the fantastic fan in the bathroom and turned it on exhaust [probably not a good idea]. Long story short, DW had dinged one of the knobs when she was cleaning and the main burner was open on HI and had been that way for almost 24 hours. It cleared in about 45 minutes and that is when I discovered the open gas on the stove. I turned of the gas at the tank earlier so the problem didn't get worse during the venting process.

An eye opener for sure and I realized unlike modern home gas ranges, rv ranges to not have a safety when the flame blows out or a problem caused by the dog or DW or whatever. We just bought a new gas range for our house and if the flame goes out after a given short duration the gas to that burner goes off. We have been TT camping for 12 years and in a pup before that and was never aware that something like this could happen. Surprising that 2 of us have had a similar problem recently.

[crumgater]

We did this ourselves - didn't even have to blame our dog (she's a mastiff, and can EASILY reach the stove). Just standing in front of the stove, one of us must have leaned against the knob and caused it to turn... we didn't know until we started sniffing and wondering what was on. Found the knob was turned on. Those knobs turn WAY too easy!!! I'm glad we were standing right there and got it all turned off and vented quickly.

I'd love to have an extra shutoff valve up above the stove for use when traveling or leaving the RV - especially when we need the gas on for fridge operation.

When we leave our dog in the RV alone, we like to notify a neighbor and leave our phone numbers, just in case. We have also left notes in the window with our phone number if there's no neighbor available.

Good tip to FIRST shut off the propane at the tank before going in... but, I'm sure you had other things on your mind in the moment. So glad your dog was OK!!

[rdlouks]

I, like others am glad nothing more tragic happened. Karma was definitely on your side. If there is a convenient location to install a shut off that would eliminate the problem. If not I would switch you water heater to electric, confirm your fridge is set to Auto and shut the tanks off if you find yourself in that situation again. Coming back to a refrigerator full of warm food is much better than coming back to find it impaled in the trailer in the next campsite.
Two other points to think about:
1. Propane is heavier than air so it will settle to the lowest points so by the time it reaches a vent fan the concentration could be quite heavy on the floor.
2. Vent fans are powered by small DC Brushed motors, an ignition point if the level goes over the 2% concentration level.

Like the old saying; "An ounce of prevention, is better than a pound of cure"
JMHO

[Bassdogs]

Originally Posted by rdlouks

I, like others am glad nothing more tragic happened. Karma was definitely on your side. If there is a convenient location to install a shut off that would eliminate the problem. If not I would switch you water heater to electric, confirm your fridge is set to Auto and shut the tanks off if you find yourself in that situation again. Coming back to a refrigerator full of warm food is much better than coming back to find it impaled in the trailer in the next campsite.
Two other points to think about:
1. Propane is heavier than air so it will settle to the lowest points so by the time it reaches a vent fan the concentration could be quite heavy on the floor.
2. Vent fans are powered by small DC Brushed motors, an ignition point if the level goes over the 2% concentration level.

Like the old saying; "An ounce of prevention, is better than a pound of cure"
JMHO

Like I said, this just happened to me BUT lets be real here. Lots of RV's out there, probably millions, and I haven't researched the subject, but I've never heard of anyone blowing up their RV because of this problem. Kind of amazing since it obviously is pretty easy to bump on one of these burners. After a few decades of camping, and most with a stove of some kind, this has only happened to me once. Agree that was one to many, but I'm not going to shut off my gas everytime I leave the site for a few hours. Think about it, do full timers shut everything off each day when they go off to do what ever they do??

Raising this issue I hope will get everyone's attention and we will all be more careful.

[rdlouks]

Originally Posted by Bassdogs

Like I said, this just happened to me BUT lets be real here. Lots of RV's out there, probably millions, and I haven't researched the subject, but I've never heard of anyone blowing up their RV because of this problem. Kind of amazing since it obviously is pretty easy to bump on one of these burners. After a few decades of camping, and most with a stove of some kind, this has only happened to me once. Agree that was one to many, but I'm not going to shut off my gas everytime I leave the site for a few hours. Think about it, do full timers shut everything off each day when they go off to do what ever they do??

Raising this issue I hope will get everyone's attention and we will all be more careful.

I do not know if it is on all new RV's but on our 2018 Pinnacle's stove you have to push & hold the knob in until the burner warms up. If the flame goes out the gas flow stops.

[Les7h]

I love that people wouldn't consider leaving the pet alone in the RV but leave the same pet alone in the " sticks and bricks " house every day - people are funny

[Tunce the traveler]

Thanks for that heads-up on the alarm. As you know every once in a while you hear an alarm in the campground but you never ever think about a gas leak when the unit is not occupied. For everyone's safety as well as the animals & myself encluded a heads up is in order.

[SouthCo]

Originally Posted by Les7h

I love that people wouldn't consider leaving the pet alone in the RV but leave the same pet alone in the " sticks and bricks " house every day - people are funny

I don’t know about you but my house is way different than my camper lol... if both lost power my house will hold heat or keep cool a lot longer than a camper. My much larger house would provide room for an animal to move around and not be cooped up. Not judging anybody just pointing out obvious reasons there is a difference between leaving an animal in either environment... I don’t have animals so I just see it from the outside without any real emotions either way.

[suzieshome]

Our dog has a bad habit of jumping up on the stove at home to see if there is anything there he can get. After he accidentally turned on the gas, without the burner igniting,we decided to remove the knobs when not using the stove

[Bassdogs]

Originally Posted by SouthCo

I don’t know about you but my house is way different than my camper lol... if both lost power my house will hold heat or keep cool a lot longer than a camper. My much larger house would provide room for an animal to move around and not be cooped up. Not judging anybody just pointing out obvious reasons there is a difference between leaving an animal in either environment... I don’t have animals so I just see it from the outside without any real emotions either way.

Point made but many many more pets have died in home fires and accidents than by being left alone in an RV for a few hours. Short of a site without shade in the 100+ temps pf TX summers, our TT will stay well within livable temps for a very long time. On the cold side?? Not an issue with any dog we have ever owned. Even though they are inside dogs, give them shelter from the wind and rain and they are good to go even in freezing temps.

Pets are a whole lot safer and more comfortable in the RV with out AC than in your car even for short periods of time. Pet owners are pet lovers so we take that responsibility seriously.

[SouthCo]

Originally Posted by Bassdogs

Point made but many many more pets have died in home fires and accidents than by being left alone in an RV for a few hours.

Of course and you’d expect that statistic because there are vastly more animals left in homes than RVs. So that’s not really a comparison that means much. Again didn’t want to derail OPs intent to alert us of the danger he experienced.

For the record I would alert the campground if I heard an alarm in a camper. I would not if I heard a dog barking inside a camper unless it was so loud that it was annoying me. I’ve had a few experiences where people left their dogs in the camper for hours and the dog barked and barked. They come back and the dog quiets down. I guess the dog in each case wasn’t happy about being left. I wouldn’t be either....

[Midnightmoon]

Originally Posted by Les7h

I love that people wouldn't consider leaving the pet alone in the RV but leave the same pet alone in the " sticks and bricks " house every day - people are funny

Unfortunately, it appears that there may be some disconnect in understand of animal/dog behavior behind this comment.

Since dogs are trained (formally or informally) by either Classic or Operant Conditioning, they react with a learned response to a stimuli. When they are in their natural environment, ie the home, the stimuli is known and common for that animal. Even a non-professionally trained dog learns that a behavior follows a constant stimuli, this is the reason why a dog will greet their owner at the door when they hear the car pulling in a driveway.

Keeping in mind that a dog relies primarily on their sense of smell and hearing, taking that dog to a new environment such as a campground, public park, etc. with all of the new smells and sounds, creates an entirely new and unfamiliar experience for the animal. They may or may not be capable of processing their reaction to a given stimuli in the way that you may come to expect. Owners must be extra vigilant in these situations since there is no way to predict the reaction.

Getting back to your comments, a dog learns their home environment and will develop somewhat predictable behaviors (anyone who has ever let a dog out to do their business knows that they generally go in the same spot all the time). Your have much less of an opportunity for an incorrect behavioral response in that known environment than one that is unfamiliar or new.

As I mentioned in my previous post on this topic, I choose not to take my dog with me when I cannot monitor him. I choose to kennel him or leave him with his trainer.

By the way, my esperience is in handling GSD's primarily in Schutzhund events. My dog is also trained in Scent Detection/Tracking and Protection.

[Bassdogs]

Originally Posted by Midnightmoon

Unfortunately, it appears that there may be some disconnect in understand of animal/dog behavior behind this comment.

Since dogs are trained (formally or informally) by either Classic or Operant Conditioning, they react with a learned response to a stimuli. When they are in their natural environment, ie the home, the stimuli is known and common for that animal. Even a non-professionally trained dog learns that a behavior follows a constant stimuli, this is the reason why a dog will greet their owner at the door when they hear the car pulling in a driveway.


By the way, my esperience is in handling GSD's primarily in Schutzhund events. My dog is also trained in Scent Detection/Tracking and Protection.

Just to clarify, Dogs do acclimate to their normal "home" environment. My disagreement is that dogs can and do acclimate to multipule environments as our past and current dogs have done. Home is home, but the houseboat and the camper are also home to them. Just like at home, both of our dogs have their spots to rest in their mobile homes. My experience is in owning dogs as pets from the time I was 3 years old. There have been many and ALL have lived long and healthy lives. As an adult they have camped with us in pop ups and now TT's and are totally content in their mobile homes just as they are in the big house.

We are pet lovers and they are members of our family. They become upset if they are left behind when we leave for more than a day. I think this thread has wandered and maybe I have contributed to that somewhat, but I will take issue with anyone who in even the slightest fashion implies that leaving a pet in an RV is abusive or unwise.