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Old 08-05-2013, 05:47 PM   #21
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UPDATE

I did some research and Indiana's Lemon Law, it only covers cars and light trucks, not RV's. I am still looking into calling the RV Action Line to see what if any help they can offer.

I am now dealing with Dwayne Jordan at Jayco. Their official word is that everything is ok with my trailer and they can't find any problems. They measured the trailer today and told me there was a 3/16 of an inch variance from the tires to the tongue. I am not sure if that is 3/16" on each side for a total of 3/8" or what exactly that means. They have also determined that the temperature is even across the tire treads. I am not sure what that means either. I asked what the acceptable temperature range was, and Mr. Jordan didn't have an answer. They said they have towed the trailer 100 miles and everything is ok. That diagnosis was done with a 1 ton dually and didn't include any highway driving. The trailer could flip onto it's side and a 1 ton dually isn't going to feel it.

Needless to say, I fell Jayco has done as little as possible to try to resolve this issue. It seems as if they have danced around the issue so they don't have to actually admit there is a problem. So, I picked up the phone today and called Norco (a division of BAL) who manufactures the frame for Jayco. I spoke with Jason Collins (a very nice guy) who told me the tolerances on the frame are very tight. It is manufactured with laser cut, machine stamped materials. Norco is going to send a rep to Jayco tomorrow to meet me there to look at the frame. He was surprised when I told him you can see that one frame rail sticks out father than the other on the rear.

Tomorrow should be interesting. I have requested in writing from Jayco, a letter stating the trailer is free of defects. I also want the temperatures of the tires so I can contact the tire manufacturer and see what they say. More to come as it develops.
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Old 08-06-2013, 02:12 PM   #22
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Sorry. Didn't know about Indiana. (Understandable, as I'm sure the RV Lobby is quite strong in Indiana.)

Lemon Laws vary, but the Magnusson-Moss Federal Statute is still in place. All of my advice still stands. Document, document, document. Be nice. Don't threaten "legal" because all of your avenues of communication will be blocked. Get as much information as you can and if you need a lawyer, hand him or her the well-documented case in a nice 3 ring binder.

Ultimately, Patience is the key. This will take time. Decide what end result you want and move in that direction. Play their game while you gather information. Take notes, including the name of the person with whom you spoke and the time of the conversation. If they want to return the trailer to you, take it. If you see any problems, return it to them for repair over and over.

And remember, there is one very important fact that all retailers and manufacturers know. In the past, if you were dissatisfied, you told 10-20 people. In the days of the internet, you can tell tens of thousands of people when you press the enter key.

A very wise VP of sales once told me that it may be easier and smarter for a company to replace or refund the $$$ to a dissatisfied customer, rather than to let it play out in the forums and harm their reputation. If they replace your unit, the PR problem goes away, the customer is satisfied, and the manufacturer gets good internet press. Win-win-win. This VP also told me that other times it is easier and smarter to refund the money and let the person go to the competition to be their problem, not mine. (not saying that you are wrong, just paraphrasing the VP's comments)

Keep us posted.
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Old 08-06-2013, 07:08 PM   #23
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I'll be pullin' for you!!!

You've certainly have done your due diligence!
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Old 08-07-2013, 07:17 AM   #24
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UPDATE

Picked up the trailer yesterday from Jayco, who is still claiming there is nothing wrong with it.

So, they wanted me to bring my weight distribution system to "make sure I was hooking it up correctly." This was basically Jayco's attempt to shift any blame to me. They had about 4 people stand around and watch me hook everything up, and their engineer determined that there was nothing wrong with the way I was connecting the vehicle to the trailer. Then we headed off to the scales to check weights. With the weight distribution system connected, the weight on the trailer axle was 2800 lbs, (the axle is rated at 3300 lbs). With the weight distribution bars not connected the axle weight was 2700 lbs. The hitch adds 100 pounds to the trailer axle, but we are still way below the axle rating. At one point we even added 200 lbs of weight to the bed of my truck, 40 lbs to the tongue of the trailer (propane tanks) and put a 275 lbs man in the trailer to simulate the actual weight with everything loaded, and we were STILL under weight by about 200 lbs.

I did point out there is some uneven tire wear (this is the 3rd set of tires), and nobody really paid attention to that. I had requested to measure the trailer while I was there and I wanted to see the specs that say what is allowable in the frame NOT being square. Those 2 things did NOT happen. I had also requested that the black tank indicator be checked out, it has been reading 2/3 FULL almost the entire time I have owned the trailer. When I got home and checked out the indicator it is now reading FULL. So, that wasn't fixed either.

When I got home I took a closer look at the tires, there is noticeable cupping in the tread. This weekend I am taking the trailer to Madison, WI and that should put about another 700 miles on the unit and make the tire cupping much more obvious.

As I was leaving Jayco, Dwayne Jordan told me that he wants to hear from me next Monday when I return from Madison. I can guarantee he is going to hear from me. The blank tank indicator is an issue, but the tire wear is a HUGE problem. I want an answer as to why after three axles and three sets of tires I am still having the exact same issue, and Jayco's engineer's can't find a problem.

My honest opinion is Jayco danced around actually dealing with the frame not being square. If they went over the trailer with a fine tooth comb and gave it a clean bill of health, I would be good with that. They didn't do that, they did a few test with tire temps, but not with how hot they are getting but with regards to the temps being even over the tread.

The entire time my trailer was a Jayco was a waste. Right now, my opinion is they don't stand behind their products and are sending customers (me) down the road with units that have very noticeable problems. They have treated me as if I have no idea what I am talking about and because they are the factory they know better than I. This might be the case on a lot of things, but it doesn't take a degree in rocket science to see the premature tread wear, and realize a trailer should not have burned through 2 other sets of tires. Next Monday, my conversation with include a replacement because of an issue that cannot be diagnosed or will I have to seek legal means. I have had patience and given everybody a chance to resolve this issue, I have played the game and even taken time off from work to deal with this. I am NOT going to be sitting here next summer still dealing with this issue as I get jerked around. If Indiana's lemon law applied to RV's in the same manner it applies to automobiles, I would have already qualified for it.
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:05 AM   #25
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I sense your frustration.

You keep saying you want to get a lawyer. I keep telling you that you don’t need one yet and I keep telling you not to threaten ‘legal’. You keep insisting.

As soon as that word leaves your lips, Jayco stops working with you. Your trailer will sit in your back yard for the next 5+ years. You can’t use it – because if you can use it, there isn’t anything wrong with it.


It’s time for a Reality Check.

Lawyer Fees A good product liability/warranty lawyer is going to cost you a lot of money. They aren’t “going to work for free unless they win.” Let’s say you find one that charges $250 per hour. You will probably pay him $10,000 before it gets to court. Do you really think your lawyer can write a letter and Jayco will hand you a check or a new TT?

Expert Witnesses You will need to get expert witnesses. You will have to find an expert witness who is willing to CERTIFY that something is wrong. The lawyer will probably want a Professional Engineer who is knowledgeable AND has experience in the TT industry. This will cost you for the engineer’s time to inspect, the driving time to and from your house, the time to write a report, time for the deposition and time for court. Count on at least another $5,000 or more by the time it is all said and done. Jayco’s attorneys will tear your witness apart and try to discredit his experience and knowledge. Jayco will present their expert witnesses, one after another, to say how safe this product is. Your Expert will have to prove that there is something wrong - speculation doesn’t count. He will have to determine why you have excess tire wear and prove it.

Time Nothing is going to come to court in less than 5 years. You won’t even have depositions taken for 4 years, while your TT sits in the backyard.

Corporate Attorneys All businesses have corporate attorneys. They get paid a lot of money to protect the business. They will draw this out for years. Even if the court decides in your favor, the company can appeal the decision. Another 5 years.

One Tiny Mistake Are you good at keeping records and details? Can you make a reasonable presentation without making a single tiny mistake, because I can tell you that many valid cases have been taken apart by a skilled corporate attorney. One little slip of the tongue, one lapse of memory, and it’s all over. You lose.

Life Stress There is one other thing that you haven’t taken into consideration – the stress a lawsuit puts on your life. A lawsuit consumes you, as you seek what is right and just. The law is not fair. The fact is that it is not that simple.

What If You Win? After all of this, all Jayco has to do is buy back your trailer. You have spent tens of thousands in legal fees – for what? You won’t win a million in damages because you haven’t been “damaged.” You won’t get paid for the vacations you didn’t get to take, it doesn’t work that way. You’re right, so they bought back the trailer.

What If You Lose? You have spent all of this money – for what? You will have lost out on all of the vacations and fun times. You will have life stress.

I have recommendations for you in my next post.
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:43 AM   #26
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First decide on your goals.

I want to go camping with my family.
or
I don’t care what it costs or how long it takes, I want to be right.

Come on. You want to camp and put this behind you ASAP. So, what do you want Jayco to do? What would make you happy? Do you want your money back or do you want a new TT? Work towards that end, without threatening “legal.”

Next, try to think objectively. What would you do if you were Jayco? How would you proceed if you honestly couldn’t find something wrong with a trailer?

I think that Jayco is trying to work with you, but they have no idea what is wrong. They are asking you to do the research on your next trip.

Did it happen again?
How many miles on a set of tires?
Did your door pop open again?
Could it be your TV or your hitch?

I think this is reasonable for Jayco to ask you to work with them. It seems like you are pushing to make this adversarial when it doesn’t have to be.

If you really believe that this is not safe to tow, you shouldn’t do it. See if you can find the expert and ask for his opinion. Take this report to Jayco and work with them.

And if all else fails, you can sell it on Craigslist. (I don’t like this suggestion, but do what you want) It will always be a bad memory to you. Just get rid of it and move on.
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Old 08-07-2013, 03:37 PM   #27
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@ski2moro are you an attorney? Why are you so persistent about NOT getting an attorney? Do you have issues with attorneys? Something has to be up with you, because your advise is not great, lets be honest.

I know what the problem is, the frame is not square. As a result the trailer is not tracking correctly and I am actually dragging it down the highway. The tires are designed to roll either forward or backwards, they are not designed to be pulled down the highway at a slight angle. This angle is causing the cupping and premature wear on the tires. Again, it am not an automotive engineer, but I have been working on cars, trucks and motorcycles my entire life. I understand the basic principles on how this works.

Please explain to me why Jayco did not measure the frame while I was there? Why couldn't Jayco produce something in writing that states what the allowable tolerances on the frame are? Why did we do a song and dance about everything except for the frame yesterday? The answer is simple, the frame on a trailer cannot simply be replaced. The camper is built on top of the frame and in order to replace it you need to disassemble the entire camper, roll in a new frame, then reassemble everything. That process is not easy and very expensive. Jayco is hoping I will take their word as the gospel and go away. Unfortunately, that is not going to happen.

So ski2moro, you explain to me why after 3 axles and 3 sets of tires why I am still having the same problem? Why should I continue to let Jayco jerk me around? Again if the Lemon Law in Indiana applied to RV's the way it does to cars and light trucks, I would have easily qualified. It has been at the dealer for the same problem 3 times and at Jayco once (that 4 if you are keeping track at home). The total amount of days at either the dealer or Jayco is 60. I have only owned if for 7 months. Come on man lets get real here.

Explain to me why the dealership who has torn it apart 3 times won't take it in on a trade? (Hint, they know there is a serious problem and don't want to have to deal with the next owner having issues)

Your suggestions offer me no new advice. I am not trying to call you out here (even though I did), but I have tried everything going through the proper channels.

When I return from this trip, my discussion of the continuing problem and solutions will be an indicator of my next step. Either Jayco is will to replace it, buy it back or we take the next step, getting my ducks in a row for potential legal action. At what point do you draw a line in the sand?
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Old 08-07-2013, 04:23 PM   #28
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I'm not taking stands here but ski2moro does have some valid points.

Have you ever been involved in any litigation? If so, you know it takes a looong time just to get a court date, definately something to consider. Either way, you are in a tough spot and I hope you get good resolution.

I don't know if I've missed it or not, but where did you purchase your Jayco from, what state? Reason I ask is because my daughter and her husband bought a brand new TT (not Jayco), from Ohio. Ohio does have a lemon law for RVs.
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Old 08-07-2013, 08:53 PM   #29
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No, I’m not an attorney, I’m an engineer. I’m sharing my experience with the court system in the United States with you.

To everyone else, please don't worry about taking sides. If he wants to threaten legal, he most certainly can. I am only offering my opinion based on my experiences.

Snapypics, I cannot explain away the problems you are having with the tires and frame and what has occurred to you. I feel for you. I believe and respect your automotive experience and knowledge. I don’t disagree with your conclusions.

My advice is and has always been: Be Patient. Don’t put yourself in danger by driving an unsafe trailer, but be Jayco’s guinea pig this weekend. Take your trailer out and enjoy if you can. Contact them when you get home and tell them what you experienced. Don’t even hint that you want to go legal, because all progress will stop. Document everything. This is probably your final trip with that trailer, one way or another.

Be patient. Catching more flies with honey and all that. It doesn’t mean you are to be taken advantage of, it means that you are a reasonable person.

I believe that Jayco will stand behind their product based on the following.
1. Your dealer won’t buy it back or take it on trade.
2. Jayco is still working with you.
3. I have never known Jayco NOT to support someone when there is a real problem. If you come back from this trip with worn tires, they have to address that.
4. You have the email of the frame expert who says the frame is not perfect.
5. You have already had 3 axles and tires.

If I were Jayco, I would ask you to use another tow vehicle, but you can point out that you borrowed the dealer’s loaner with no damage to the tires.

As for your dealer…I agree with you. They know you have a problem and if they buy it back, they will eat the whole amount. They cannot resell it. They are also waiting for Jayco to step up. They don’t want to lose you as a customer.

I think you are in a hurry to get this settled and quick to assign blame. Neither is a good way to handle a warranty problem. Let cooler heads prevail.

I’m not your adversary. I'm with you. I am just telling you things you don’t want to hear.



Let me ask you this. If you proceed as you wish and ‘threaten legal’ what do you envision as the result?





*My experience in suing someone: I suffered through a lawsuit on my house that lasted longer than World War II and the lawsuit alone cost more than $40,000. Three weeks after I moved in, I had 5 inches of water in my basement. Builder error. I was hospitalized for CO poisoning due to a bad installation on the water heater. I had a propane leak that didn’t blow us up, only by the grace of God. My builder used SPF2 lumber for the floor joists when the plans called for Douglas fir or better. The floor was so bouncy that my Golden Retriever could walk across the floor and bounce ornaments off the Christmas tree. One night, a floor joist snapped and then 10 followed in close succession. We had to pay $7000 for temporary, emergency repairs and the basement looked like a mineshaft. The builder never built on the screened porch, which was in the contract to be completed in the Spring and paid for. The plumbing leaked. I have brick bind. Insulation that was never installed – no wonder the temperature in the bathtub was 44 degrees when it was 20 outside. Pipes froze. And it went on and on. Builder’s excuses: “Nobody has ever complained before.” Or “That’s the way we always do it.” Or "I built it to code." Everyone told me I had the perfect case against him. I paid for the engineers and the attorneys and depositions. In the end, the repairs cost more than the original house. As for the lawsuit, the builder got off due to a clerical error. And he continues to build half million dollar plus houses, backed by a powerful socially- and politically-connected Realtor. It is what it is. Breathe in, breathe out, move on.
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Old 08-08-2013, 12:59 AM   #30
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OK guys keep in mind forum rule #9 if this goes to an attorney, etc:

9. Posts are not allowed in which a local, state, or federal consumer action board and/or legal counsel is/have been involved.
This includes posts related to future, ongoing, or past lawsuits.

Sorry to hear about the ongoing problems. One thing I can add on the black tank sensor issue, mine has NEVER been accurate, also usually reads 2/3 full, and from what I understand they are generally accepted as unreliable at best.
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