2018 Seneca - more power needed - Page 3

Robbbyr · 02-28-2019, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outlawten5

There are quite a few performance modules available. AFE Scorcher looks like what I would be after. Plugs into the diagnostic port. Leaves no trace or footprint. 60hp and 90 ft lbs. That would be great for steep grades
https://www.dieselpowerproducts.com/...l-cummins.aspx

Unfortunately our Freightliner's chassis do not have a "standard" OBD port, it is unique to Freightliner and interfaces with many vehicle systems, including the engine and transmission. The aftermarket tuners out there for the ISB 6.7 are for installations in Dodge/Ram trucks which do have the standard OBD connection.

MD3 · 02-28-2019, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outlawten5

There are quite a few performance modules available. AFE Scorcher looks like what I would be after. Plugs into the diagnostic port. Leaves no trace or footprint. 60hp and 90 ft lbs. That would be great for steep grades
https://www.dieselpowerproducts.com/...l-cummins.aspx

Check out TS Performance link above maybe even shoot them an email.
TS also leaves no footprint AND it is adjustable on the fly.

They have said they have one that will plug in but have not tested it yet.... shoot them an email on their webpage. Maybe more interest in the programmer will motivate them to get to testing it.

You can look at the TS Performance programmers and not all of them go through OBD port. Super simple to see by looking at the pics available online.

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Robbbyr · 02-28-2019, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD3

I really doubt Freightliner or Allison are foolish enough to pair an engine/trans that was at the absolute max limit from the start. They might state it is the max limit on paper but I would bet my Allison 2500 it can and will handle more than 340/700. If we are already at the mechanical max on the 2500 we would be seeing failures in the 2500.
I'm not looking for big power but enough to hold 50-55mph in the hills around me would be great.

Everything I've ever seen in the automotive industry with max ratings is an engineered number with a cushion built into that number. The manufacturers do not want to see the failures so they underrate the numbers by a percentage to avoid the failures and try to ensure reliability.
_

I wish I knew an Allison "expert" from whom we could obtain an honest answer regarding the 2500's real capabilities. I do know the only way the 2500 is paired with our 340hp / 700 lb/ft engines is because Cummins and Allison incorporated what is known as "Shift Energy Management" (reducing power momentarily when shifting) and limiting engine torque in gears 1, 2, and 6. Full engine torque on our 340/700 engines is available only in gears 3, 4 and 5 to prevent transmission damage. I am not claiming to be an expert by any means, but what they did in the S2RV 360/800 application seems telling. They bumped the horsepower by only 20 and the torque by 100 lb/ft, but yet they upgraded to the 3000 transmission which has significantly higher maximum ratings. And I believe no SEM or torque limiting needed.

I would love more power too, but unless someone has better info on our "real" transmission capabilities I am hesitant to upgrade. And I wonder whether a performance tune would "override" the SEM and torque limiting functions, or if the tuner might only provide the performance boost when the Cummins is "allowed" to make full torque like they do now when not shifting and in gears 3-5. I suppose that is a question for the tuner manufacturers.

I wish I knew!

MD3 · 03-06-2019, 12:59 PM

Here are a couple more options I am exploring to add some power.
Anyone heard of these before ?

https://www.parleysdieselperformance...6-7l-isb-46502

https://www.magnumtuning.com/en/deta...40-hp---diesel

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MD3 · 03-06-2019, 01:34 PM

Just got a quick reply to share from the first link above :

The Bully Dog 46502 will work on your RV and it does give a 20% power increase on the top power level. It has a 10% power increase level for the "Fuel Economy" setting, a 15% power increase level for the "Power Plus Economy" setting and then the 20% power increase level on the top end for their "Power" setting. Here's a link back to the product page.

https://www.parleysdieselperformance...6-7l-isb-46502

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MD3 · 03-12-2019, 08:48 AM

Spoke with my local Allison service center yesterday.

It is their opinion the MH2500 will not have any problems handling a 20% increase in power.

Further, the transmissions are computer controlled and are designed to keep it from tearing itself up. The way it sounds you would have to be a very special kinda stupid to tear up one of these Allison transmissions.

IF you were to increase the power so much the transmission did have a problem it would throw a check transmission code/fault and could go into a limp mode (worst case scenario). The transmission limp mode is easily reset simply by shutting down the engine and restarting it. It will clear the check transmission code/fault and restart without it being in the limp mode. It will store that it did have a code thrown.

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Gunfighter · 03-12-2019, 01:48 PM

I know this thread has turned to hauling around the Gross limit behind a Seneca. I have a 2018.5 with the higher horsepower and Allison 3000. I pull a toad at around 3 to 4K and I pull hills with no problems. I did find out that the Allison manual kept talking about performance mode and showing a lighted area on the shift "pad" with performance or economy. The 2018.5 doesn't have it. I finally figured out (since there was nothing in the manual) that pushing the "Mode" button put you into performance mode, but it only shows "Mode." Trial and error and felt a little foolish. What a difference. In regular economy mode the trans at less than WOT would shift up and you would "dog" along. In performance the shifts hold longer and stay in the torque band longer. I find the economy mode annoying in all but flat cruising. I guess it is one of those "get what you pay for" as I looked at the Valencia and DynaMax DX3 on the M2 chassis with the 8.9L, both of which cost considerably more $$. We are happy with our Seneca, and despite many of the annoying “fixits” and “I wish they would have . . . “ with all RV’s find it a pleasure to drive, and it may not run 70 all day with a 10K trailer load, but it will with a car toad if you want to go that fast!

MD3 · 03-13-2019, 07:20 AM

I called my closest Freightliner and explained my situation and how the Allison transmission was already tuned from economy to a performance setting. The transmission change had a positive effect but still not as effective as what I was looking for.

I spoke with them about tuning the engine and to see if it had adjustable settings like the transmission and could be changed from an economy type setting to a performance mode. The first guy I spoke with said they dial up the power all the time on the Detroit engines but he wasn't sure about the Cummins. He suggested I call back during the dayshift to talk to someone more familiar with the Cummins. I called the next day and had the same conversation with someone who was familiar with Cummins engines. They said it can absolutely be changed but I should reach out to Cummins to see where the engines are set at from the start. This would save me from making the long drive and paying Freightliner tech to tell me it is already at the max settings. I emailed Cummins and we will see what they say about where the engines are set from the factory.....

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Robbbyr · 03-13-2019, 08:44 AM

Please let us know!

**Midnightmoon** · 03-13-2019, 11:34 AM

Lots of talk in this thread related to transmission capabilities and potential increased power. Please don't forget that increased power also can equate to higher EGT's (exhaust gas temperature). For those if you considering increased power, you are going to need to have a way to monitor those temps, especially at the GVW of your units. You may find that you can't safely use that increased power depending on conditions and load. Make sure that this is discussed with whoever is tuning your engine before you make a decision.

FYIB · 03-13-2019, 02:41 PM

When I took my 2017 Seneca in for yearly service at the freightliner/cummins service center at Transwest in Denver, I asked them to plug in to the ecm and see if they could up the horsepower. It comes programmed @340hp and the engine will support @360hp under warranty. He said he could do it no problem but it was $175 for the ecm update and another $600 (cummins service charge to keep the engine under warranty) to do the update. I didn't think the almost $800 was worth the @20hp upgrade. But is fully supported and still under warranty. He said once your 5 year cummins warranty was up, bring it back and they would do it for the $175 fee.

MD3 · 03-15-2019, 08:28 PM

Well ....Cummins says we are topped out at 340hp..... so I guess aftermarket programmer is the way to go unless you can find a service center that knows something Cummins doesn't.

Here is the email back I received from Cummins :

Your engine's CPL allows you to configure for four different Fuel Ratings.
340 HP
300 HP
325 HP
280 HP
It looks like 340 HP is the highest you can get through ECM changes.
Thank you for contacting Cummins.
Steve
Cummins Care Representative

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McGintys924 · 03-16-2019, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunfighter

I know this thread has turned to hauling around the Gross limit behind a Seneca. I have a 2018.5 with the higher horsepower and Allison 3000. I pull a toad at around 3 to 4K and I pull hills with no problems. I did find out that the Allison manual kept talking about performance mode and showing a lighted area on the shift "pad" with performance or economy. The 2018.5 doesn't have it. I finally figured out (since there was nothing in the manual) that pushing the "Mode" button put you into performance mode, but it only shows "Mode." Trial and error and felt a little foolish. What a difference. In regular economy mode the trans at less than WOT would shift up and you would "dog" along. In performance the shifts hold longer and stay in the torque band longer. I find the economy mode annoying in all but flat cruising. I guess it is one of those "get what you pay for" as I looked at the Valencia and DynaMax DX3 on the M2 chassis with the 8.9L, both of which cost considerably more $$. We are happy with our Seneca, and despite many of the annoying “fixits” and “I wish they would have . . . “ with all RV’s find it a pleasure to drive, and it may not run 70 all day with a 10K trailer load, but it will with a car toad if you want to go that fast!

The dynamax DX3 and Renegade are also on an M2 112 chassis rather than that of the M2 106 we have. I know they can tow a lot, but also think they had an Allison 3500 to go along with the larger engine. Of course all that costs money.

SloPoke · 03-17-2019, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McGintys924

The dynamax DX3 and Renegade are also on an M2 112 chassis rather than that of the M2 106 we have. I know they can tow a lot, but also think they had an Allison 3500 to go along with the larger engine. Of course all that costs money.

Dynamax DX3 spec's are: Cummins® 8.9L 350 HP engine and the Allison® 3200 TRV automatic transmission, resulting in torque (1,000 lb.-ft.) and towing capacity (20,000 lbs.) GVWR of 33k and GCWR of 54k

The big difference is the torque input, not the 10HP difference.

We looked at them before we bought our Seneca... If the DX3 had a decent floor plan back then... we probably would be on the DoF, not the JoF!

Rustynuts · 03-17-2019, 03:36 PM

The DX3 is still on the M2 106 chassis. I would bet that the Seneca with S2RV 6.7 chassis and the DX3 with the 8.9, towing would be very similar as the UVW on the Seneca is around 25k and while I can’t find a UVW on the DX3, I bet it is much higher than the Seneca, based on power to weight ratio. Like SloPoke said, the torque makes the difference

McGintys924 · 03-17-2019, 06:35 PM

Rusty and all, I apologize for the incorrect information but indeed you are correct! The Valencia is on an SRV2 and the DX3 is on an M2 106 (how do they get so much more towing capacity on the same frame???). I don’t usually screw that stuff up, so either it did utilize that chassis in the past, or it’s just me!!

Interestingly the DX3 (that I remember from 2015 when we thought about a Seneca the first time), and the Valencia (in Charlotte last year) had 8.9 Cummins (or at least I was told it did; there is my problem, I believed a salesman along the way and didn’t verify!!! Or maybe it’s still just me!) and they had the cab floor level with the living quarters.

Rustynuts · 03-17-2019, 08:15 PM

No apologies needed. I just remember cause before we bought the Seneca we looked into them. The higher rating basically comes from the bigger front and rear axles and the motor/trans combination and the frame is more that enough to handle it. I searches all over for UVW on the DX3 and just couldn’t come up with it. They talk about it in the brochure but don’t say the weight

Jopopsy · 03-21-2019, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SloPoke

We also use the CAT scale app so that we don't have to go into the office at all. They give me our weight right on the scale and send a PDF document of the Scale ticket via E-mail in about 20 seconds. Same price and the line at the fuel desk I don't have to wait in.

https://catscale.com/

Cool tip about the app !! I just downloaded it and will set up my account before I get underway next month.

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