Thinking of getting first TT, need advice between 2 Jayco's

[sennister]

Originally Posted by SOMBATFAMILY

~snip
We are over the GVWR on the Sequoia but not over the Gross Combine Weigh Rating. We definitely like the 28BHBE over the SLX.

It is your family and you can do what you want but I wouldn't want to be over the numbers. If you are over on GVWR that means you are also blowing past the cargo limits of your vehicle. Can you transfer some cargo from the Sequoia to the camper. Maybe carry less in the vehicle that you don't really need because while weight in the Sequoia counts 100% toward the cargo limits, by moving it to the camper you may only carry 10-15% of it on the truck through the tongue.

Looking at the numbers on my Yukon I can pull 8100lbs because that is the tow rating. After researching it, I wouldn't dream of trying to pull anything near that because I know that my frame can't take the necessary 13%+ tongue weight as my hitch maxes out at 1000 even with WD. Then there is the cargo limits I would hit and blowing past the GVWR as you are. How about the load limits on the truck's axles? You just have to keep in mind that some of the numbers that they use in the sales brochures for trucks is largely there as marketing fluff to compete with other trucks in the class. When you really look at the numbers to be safe for you, your family and everyone else on the road, that is when it becomes apparent. Should something happen and someone is killed or seriously injured to where an investigation is done, someone could be held accountable for running past the limits.

[SOMBATFAMILY]

Toyota Sequoia we have is based on Tunda truck. Same engine and transmission, frame axle. Cargo capacity is 1,230lbs. It have seating for 8 people. If we have 8 Japaneses in the SUV we would have 30lbs left over for cargo. Front axle is rated for 4,000lbs and 4,250lbs rear axle. GVWR is only 7,300. Standard tires is rated for 2,600lbs each. Trailer have its own brake and I am not driving it like a sports car so I think I will be alright towing my 8,000lb trailer.

[kampfirekid]

Originally Posted by SOMBATFAMILY

When we first pick up trailer I had accidentally trip the breakaway brakes on trailer and the Sequoia didn't feel the difference and I didn't even know until I was flagged down by another car.

You might want to reconfigure your brake controller settings. If you had the brakes set properly, you would have undoubtedly noticed the drag before those waving in the car next to you. In breakaway mode, the trailer brakes are in full, not slightly braking. While some really heavy trailers are difficult to lock up on full brake, your trailer model should not have had issues there. I only bring it to your attention in case you NEED to use the braking in an emergency. Also check the brakes if you haven't. I've seen heated up brake pads separate from the shoes.



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[SOMBATFAMILY]

Yes, after that incident I had no brakes on trailer. Breakaway switch melted and brake wires also melted and broken off. I didn't know the extend of my trailer brakes until I drove 250 miles home and did full inspection. My first TT. My brake controller is set with enough power to stop the trailer and truck without locking trailer tires. Not sure if there is a way to set power setting for breakaway switch.

[kampfirekid]

Originally Posted by SOMBATFAMILY

Yes, after that incident I had no brakes on trailer. Breakaway switch melted and brake wires also melted and broken off. I didn't know the extend of my trailer brakes until I drove 250 miles home and did full inspection. My first TT. My brake controller is set with enough power to stop the trailer and truck without locking trailer tires. Not sure if there is a way to set power setting for breakaway switch.

Breakaway is FULL voltage, and FULL brakes. No adjustments other than ensuring your brakes are maintained and in full working order to "lock up" if needed... as in trailer unhook from ball, WDH comes undone, safety chains break, and the breakaway switch pin pulls out sending full voltage to activate brakes. Check your tow vehicles Manual on setting controller for normal braking. It's likely to provide directions on setting to work with your anti-locks on the tow vehicle. If you fully activate the controller at about 35mph when brakes are warm, the trailer brakes should lock up, but confirm with your manual.


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[sennister]

Originally Posted by SOMBATFAMILY

Toyota Sequoia we have is based on Tunda truck. Same engine and transmission, frame axle. Cargo capacity is 1,230lbs. It have seating for 8 people. If we have 8 Japaneses in the SUV we would have 30lbs left over for cargo. Front axle is rated for 4,000lbs and 4,250lbs rear axle. GVWR is only 7,300. Standard tires is rated for 2,600lbs each. Trailer have its own brake and I am not driving it like a sports car so I think I will be alright towing my 8,000lb trailer.

I know what a Sequoia is and that it is built off a Tundra. Engine, transmission and frame doesn't mean much in terms of safe towing. They are factors but not the only ones to consider. In the GM world a 3/4 ton and 1 ton are build with the same frame, engine and transmission. One can take more weight than the other. Just saying..

8000 x .13 gives you a tongue weight of 1040 + lets say 80lbs for a WD hitch. A lot of people like running closer to 15% but I am trying to help out your numbers. That is 1120 lbs that counts against your 1230lbs of cargo capacity. Now most manufactures give you 150lbs for the driver. Not sure if Toyota does that but lets say it does I will assume you weigh 150lbs but I sure don't but lets pretend as it really doesn't matter, you are are way over your limits. That means you have 110lbs for all your remaining cargo, aftermarket items like running boards and your remaining 5 passengers. My guess is your 5 passengers weigh a heck of a lot more than a combined 110lbs. I haven't even gotten to any cargo. I have kids and know they love to bring all kinds of stuff to keep them entertained. That makes the numbers even worse. Are you planning on running this combo for a few years? 4 kids grow fast. More and more over the limits. So as I mentioned not only are you over GVWR which you admitted to but you are way past cargo limits. Some people add air bags to the rear and improve these numbers in their heads but if something happens and an investigation happens it doesn't matter. They are going to use the manufacturer specs.

Again. It is your vehicle, camper and family. Do what you want but just be aware that you are not only blowing past GVWR but cargo limits as well and who knows what else. Sure your camper has trailer brakes. Great, glad for you. Trailer brakes are not designed to stop the truck. You even proved this point when you said your brake away switch tripped and you didn't notice it. Sure rip out the OEM truck brakes and go with a fancy set of Brembos or some other performance brake, that still doesn't help the liability issue. It also doesn't help stability of the combo.

I will say what you are doing is nothing new. People do it all the time. Just know your risks and take it into account. I hope you don't plan a trip in the mountains. My tow vehicle numbers are pretty close to yours but I only have 2 kids. I specifically looked for a camper with a GVWR of 6750 or less. That is me though. I used the GVWR on the camper because I know I will be less than that and a max safe load in the camper is putting me right at the limits of my truck when I look at all the different areas.

Also I will admit that I personally do blow past these limits in one case. The only vehicle I do that on is my long distance motorcycle. I have a couple motorcycles and one is set up for long distance Iron Butt rides. The Japanese must not realize how big we are because me riding solo on my bike leaves me about 50 lbs of cargo to hit cargo limits. I am way past that. The difference is that this bike is set up for solo riding only. So it is just me at risk.

[sennister]

Originally Posted by SOMBATFAMILY

Yes, after that incident I had no brakes on trailer. Breakaway switch melted and brake wires also melted and broken off. I didn't know the extend of my trailer brakes until I drove 250 miles home and did full inspection. My first TT. My brake controller is set with enough power to stop the trailer and truck without locking trailer tires. Not sure if there is a way to set power setting for breakaway switch.

As mentioned. It is like a light switch with no dimmer. It is on or off.

[Khans Keeper]

Originally Posted by kayakterp

I stand corrected, I finally found the information on the jayco.com website. Have to go to "brochures" and pages 11-13 gives the stats file:///C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/JAY%205116-01%20Jay%20Flight%20Reprint_01.06.16%20v2%20(1).pd f

Thanks for getting back to me Kayak. Yes I have seen this printout on the website. That list is what I was referencing when I said the flooring was the same components between the two. As you see they both use 5/8 tongue and groove plywood for the deck. As for them both using the magnum truss, both lines list the magnum truss on their main pages. The only structural difference I am aware of is the axles and frame which is why when you see the same floor plan in both models, the SLX models have slightly lower GVWR than their regular Jayflight counterparts.

If you saw a printout showing OSB decking, my guess would be that it was the 7 foot SLX models.

[SOMBATFAMILY]

Originally Posted by sennister

I know what a Sequoia is and that it is built off a Tundra. Engine, transmission and frame doesn't mean much in terms of safe towing. They are factors but not the only ones to consider. In the GM world a 3/4 ton and 1 ton are build with the same frame, engine and transmission. One can take more weight than the other. Just saying..

What I don't get is how can 3/4 ton with same fame, engine, transmission as 1 ton not be able to carry same weight. I know that SUV curb weigh takes away from carrying capacity and air bag doesn't increase carry capacity.
When all system are working correctly in a towing rig, trailer have enough brake to stop itself. So if that is the case then the TV braking system is only stopping the TV and the trailer brake is stopping the trailer.

[sennister]

Originally Posted by SOMBATFAMILY

What I don't get is how can 3/4 ton with same fame, engine, transmission as 1 ton not be able to carry same weight. I know that SUV curb weigh takes away from carrying capacity and air bag doesn't increase carry capacity.
When all system are working correctly in a towing rig, trailer have enough brake to stop itself. So if that is the case then the TV braking system is only stopping the TV and the trailer brake is stopping the trailer.

Keep in mind it is the engineers the design the trucks that come up with the ratings. Just because engine, transmission and frame are the same doesn't mean the suspension is the same. That is where some argue that well I added air bags to my truck or added additional leaves to the springs if a leaf spring setup, so now I can carry more. Ok in your eye you can but unless the manufacturer (GM, Toyota, Ford, Dodge or whoever) reassessed the change and updated the spec then it doesn't matter in terms of an investigation. It is an aftermarket part that while I don't disagree that it might add some capacity the question is how much? It might be a super dooper air bag and adds 1000lbs or a child's balloon that adds nothing in real world terms. The manufacturer (of the suspension component) might claim a certain amount of capacity being added. However they may not be in the loop to certain design changes from year to year that Toyota's engineers might have made.

As far as brakes that is another area that comes into play with capacity. You are completely right that the trailer brakes are there to stop the trailer and the tow vehicle is stopping the tow vehicle. However as I pointed out that using the 8,000 trailer weight and a 13% tongue weight + WD hitch + and giving you a credit of 150# for driver (if Toyota even does that). This left 110# for the remaining 5 passengers, all cargo and aftermarket accessories added to the truck. You have to pretend that all of this weight is in the TV and dependent on the TV brakes not the trailer because it is part of the capacity. Even if 1000# of that is physically in the camper the weight is being transferred to the trough through that WD hitch to the truck when it is leveling out the load to keep your front wheels on the ground. You admitted that you are over GVWR on the TV which again is directly applied to the TV brakes and the numbers that the engineers designed your truck to stop. This is why I mentioned I would avoid mountains. If you live in flat areas where you are just stopping you may fine and never have an issue. Your stopping distance will be greater but as you pointed out you don't drive it like a race car and it can be expected. Brakes work by converting kinetic energy motion to heat which is then dissipated through the rotor. Rotors do a better job of heat dissipation than drums which is why you don't see them used very much in vehicles. If you are heading down a mountain pass and riding the brakes because you didn't downshift, you are heating up your brakes. As they heat up they will slowly lose braking force as temps go up the friction goes down. To prove this point look at where you were talking about your breakaway switch tripping. Your brakes were smoking on the trailer but as you mentioned you were still pulling it fine. Once those brakes became saturated with heat, they lost stopping power which is why you didn't notice it. The same happens to rotors in the truck. As you are braking they heat up and eventually start to fade. You might have seen the term brake fade and that is what they are talking about. Once hot you step on the brake and it doesn't slow down as quick as if the brakes were completely cold. If they get hot enough you will boil the brake fluid and this forms bubbles in your brake lines. Hydraulic brake systems in TVs are designed to work under hydraulic pressure. If there are bubbles in the line it will compress the bubbles and not give you brake pressure to the caliper to squeeze the brake pads. Now you are in trouble because your brake pedal will go to the floor. At this point you better start looking for one of those run-away truck ramps that they often build in the mountain passes. If you even boil your brake fluid you have to completely replace the fluid because it will boil again at a lower temp. Depending on how hot the rotors got you will likely be replacing them as well as the pads. The trailer is using electric brakes so you don't have the issue there as much there. This is also why I mentioned the big brake kits like Brembo make. Sure a bigger rotor can cool better and take more abuse but again unless it is reassessed by the manufacturer (Toyota in your case) then it doesn't really matter because you don't know what it added. Ever drive up Pike's Peak in CO? About halfway down the mountain there is a ranger station with a gift shop. A ranger stops every vehicle on the way down the hill and is standing there with an IR Temp gun. He walks up to your vehicle and takes a reading of your brake rotors. If over a certain temp they tell you to pull off and visit the gift shop for 10-15 min. I was in a rental car a few years ago coming down the hill pretty quick following another car. That car got the wave off to park it. The ranger checked my car, then checked it again. His comment was "Hmm you know how to drive, we don't say this very often but you can keep going if you want." They are not waving people off because they want to sell stuff in their gift shop. They are tired of people losing their brakes and sailing off the road.

Don't take any of this personally. I am not trying to call out anyone on any personal decisions they have made. Just a discussion to help maybe you or others on what the numbers mean and how they may apply so each person can do their own risk assessment as to what they consider an acceptable level of risk for them and their family. Someone might look at it and say well I am a little over GVWR but not even think to look at cargo capacity because they didn't realize that the tongue weight of the trailer and the WD hitch directly eat into that number. I predicted that you were probably blowing through your cargo limit not only because it is pretty common but simply because you stated you were over GVWR. Normally the engineers come up with the design of the components and assign it a GVWR. The cargo number is normally calculated by weighing the vehicle as it rolls off the production line with all factory options. Take that weight plus credit for a driver (150# is used a by a lot of them) + maybe some fuel weight. When they take the GVWR and subtract this number, the number left over is called Cargo weight. So if someone is over GVWR you pretty much have to be over on Cargo. The same goes if over on Cargo means you are over on GVWR as they are directly related unlike towing capacity with is some number that I don't get how they come up with and is normally astronomically high. You may have been fine for a while now and you may never have an issue in the future. All it takes is something unexpected, maybe a deer running out in front of you causing you to instinctively swerve, maybe a tire failure because you ran over a bolt left in the road. The bolt in the road happened to me in my WRX last month. Never even saw it but I lost a tire. Something little like that can change everything. Now being over the limits in one category might (not will) change everything to where you are now regretting things.

EDIT: I don't know the details on what happened here and it was a 3/4 to 1 ton but this is the stuff that happens every day.

http://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f7...son-45032.html

[Woodworker]

Ramameber not all 3/4 ton or 1 ton have same capacities. My Dodge Ram 2500 with 6.7 does not have the same capacity as a Dodge Ram 2500 with a Cummins. Gear ratio also affects capacity. My truck with a 373 gear has less capacity than the identical truck with 411 gears. 2 trucks side by side look identical but can be sooooo far apart

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[SOMBATFAMILY]

Yeah the number don't add up for me when I was looking for SUV for towing. I get that bigger engine with more torque and lower gears will tow more. If same chassis and axles then should be able to carry same weight without breaking the frame or axles.
I get it that accident happen and it would be better to be in a tank towing 8,000lbs trailer than in a Honda civic. I always tell myself that if deer or a chipmunk or tractor trailer jump in front of me, I would hit it straight on vs swerving and chance flipping over.

[sennister]

Originally Posted by Woodworker

Ramameber not all 3/4 ton or 1 ton have same capacities. My Dodge Ram 2500 with 6.7 does not have the same capacity as a Dodge Ram 2500 with a Cummins. Gear ratio also affects capacity. My truck with a 373 gear has less capacity than the identical truck with 411 gears. 2 trucks side by side look identical but can be sooooo far apart

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Yes, very true. Some model years in a given make a model the frame on a 3/4 and 1 ton may be the same. The very next year they may change something and this isn't the case. Or it might apply to a standard cab short box but not with a crew cab long box. The point is that it is best to go by the numbers and don't assume.

You will see the towing capacity change quite a bit with gearing which also impacts MPG numbers. Also a gas engine is a lot of times lighter than a diesel and may mean the cargo capacity of a gasser could in theory be higher if they share the same GVWR. Though some times they put a bigger gas engine in to offset the lower torque. Like with Ford having V8 PowerStrokes and V10 gassers or at least they did. Not sure if they still do. This is why it is best left to the engineers that designed the truck rather than some shade tree mechanic bolting on accessories.

[kayakterp]

Originally Posted by Khans Keeper

Thanks for getting back to me Kayak. Yes I have seen this printout on the website. That list is what I was referencing when I said the flooring was the same components between the two. As you see they both use 5/8 tongue and groove plywood for the deck. As for them both using the magnum truss, both lines list the magnum truss on their main pages. The only structural difference I am aware of is the axles and frame which is why when you see the same floor plan in both models, the SLX models have slightly lower GVWR than their regular Jayflight counterparts.

If you saw a printout showing OSB decking, my guess would be that it was the 7 foot SLX models.

Yah, I could not find the original paperwork & folder I got before I bought the trailer. I know I did read it on a piece of paper the salesman gave me.
If I do find the folder I will take a picture of it and post it...it does make sense that it would be from the 7' trailer. I think the salesman was rather new and may have said "you can use this as a comparison as it's close enough" or something to that aspect, but not for sure as it was over a year ago!
Thanks for reply

[sennister]

Originally Posted by SOMBATFAMILY

Yeah the number don't add up for me when I was looking for SUV for towing. I get that bigger engine with more torque and lower gears will tow more. If same chassis and axles then should be able to carry same weight without breaking the frame or axles.
I get it that accident happen and it would be better to be in a tank towing 8,000lbs trailer than in a Honda civic. I always tell myself that if deer or a chipmunk or tractor trailer jump in front of me, I would hit it straight on vs swerving and chance flipping over.

Yeah it is best to hit them and we can tell ourselves that but sometimes out of instinct you forget the load is there and swerve.

Here is another difference. One of my past vehicles was a Chevy Avalanche. Back when Chevy first built this as a prototype they were planning on building it on a pickup frame. They did this and were testing the prototypes and had an issue. They found the sheet metal on the body kept wrinkling. Eventually an engineer figured it out. If you ever look at the bed of a pickup going down the road the bed and cab are separate. As they hit bumps the frame flexes a bit but because they are separate they can move and no damage happens. However the Avalanche was all one piece more like a Suburban. So they built a new prototype on the Suburban frame with additional bracing under the skin. This fixed the problem and they eventually went to production in 2002.

The point is that just because a pickup and SUV are built on the same frame. Doesn't mean it is the "same frame" the latter meaning not fully interchangeable. There really needs to be differences in stiffness. At least this is what GM found out. That isn't saying Toyota had the same issue but just something to keep in mind. Maybe they start with the same frame and add reinforcement to them. If that is the case for marketing they can claim it is the same frame. However reinforcement adds weight. Also the body of a pickup is a lot lighter than a SUV. They don't have seating capacity, carpet, glass and roof for 8 people. Maybe you have rear air conditioning like my Yukon. All this adds weight which counts against cargo which is why pickups can haul more weight when comparing cargo capacity. It doesn't have anything to do with engine, transmission or chassis. Simply a weight game. Of course 6 people in a pickup would be tight unless optioned with front and rear bench seats. Not sure if that is an option in a Toyota.