Driver's License for Large Fifth Wheel

[shadester]

UPDATE- I can now understand why many haven't pursued this issue. I was unsuccessful applying for the class d r endorsement today. My local dmv and who they called in albany both said the r endorsement does not include any rv in combo, but can not produce anything in writing. Also said pickups have commercial plates over 6,000lbs. So if you tow any rv with a pickup thats 40ft or over 26000lbs you have to get a class a cdl license. I refered the to the cdl-10 book that states-exceptions, Drivers of the following vehicles that otherwise meet the definition of a CMV are exempt from Cdl requirement *personal vehicles (including rental vehicles up to 26000lbs. Gvwr) when operated strictly and exclusively to transport personal possessions of family members for noncommercial purposes. So basically they say this don't apply because its a combo, plus a pickup has commercial plates so its not a personal vehicle. In their eyes I'm totally out of class and illegal. I'm filing a complaint with the Nys Dmv and if I hear any positive I will post.

[Mad Cow]

NY is like any other state.... it is all about revenue. They get substantially more revenue from issuing a CDL. So they will try to shoe horn anyone they can into that category

[Isaacs]

Originally Posted by shadester

UPDATE- I can now understand why many haven't pursued this issue. I was unsuccessful applying for the class d r endorsement today. My local dmv and who they called in albany both said the r endorsement does not include any rv in combo, but can not produce anything in writing. Also said pickups have commercial plates over 6,000lbs. So if you tow any rv with a pickup thats 40ft or over 26000lbs you have to get a class a cdl license. I refered the to the cdl-10 book that states-exceptions, Drivers of the following vehicles that otherwise meet the definition of a CMV are exempt from Cdl requirement *personal vehicles (including rental vehicles up to 26000lbs. Gvwr) when operated strictly and exclusively to transport personal possessions of family members for noncommercial purposes. So basically they say this don't apply because its a combo, plus a pickup has commercial plates so its not a personal vehicle. In their eyes I'm totally out of class and illegal. I'm filing a complaint with the Nys Dmv and if I hear any positive I will post.

Thanks for keeping us posted. You're going over and above the call of duty spending that much time with DMV!

[shadester]

Finally heard from the NYS DMV in writing:

My Question:

Depending on what DMV I've talked too, I've been told I need a Class D with a R endorsement, but some claim I need a class A Cdl. Under the CDL-10 manual it indicates Drivers of the following vehicles that otherwise meet the definition of a CMV are exempt from the CDL requirement: * personal vehicles (including rental vehicles up to 26000lbs GVWR) when operated strictly and exclusively to transport personal possessions or family members for non-commercial purposes.


So why would a pickup pulling a recreation vehicle for personal use not fall under the exemption? I see nothing in writing stating that a pickup and rv trailer is not considered a recreation vehicle. I would appreciate a explanation in the case I indeed need a CDL A. I know many RVer's and found only one with a class D with a R endorsement who took the test with his pickup and Rv trailer who has a GVWR over 26000lbs. The rest never even heard of the R endorsement and have the Class D.


Their response:


Response By Email (REP-1) (03/09/2018 12:01 PM)
Dear Bob

If the RV being towed does not add up to more than 26,000 GCWR together with the towing vehicle, an RV endorsement is not needed. Once the weight is exceeded then a road test is needed to add the RV endorsement to the class D license. This is not a CDL and is currently exempted as it is for personal use and not for commercial business. A further guide on the ruling can be found through the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration.

Thank you
bml




So basically I've been being forced to drive illegally since I've tried applying for the R endorsement. I went through the same thing when I got off Active Duty and they were trying to tax me on my vehicles. So next week I'll go try to apply again. If I get any resistance my next letter goes to the Commissioner.

Morale to this story when dealing with the DMV- "the customer is never right.

[Isaacs]

Originally Posted by shadester

Morale to this story when dealing with the DMV- "the customer is never right.

They're not happy 'till you're not happy!

[Isaacs]

Update:

I just went to DMV yesterday because my license needed to be renewed and they confirmed the following: You cannot get an "R" endorsement on a CDL. There is no such thing as a Non-CDL A, B, or C.

This means that if you have a class C-CDL, you would either have to upgrade to a B or downgrade to a D + "R" in order to get past 26000 pounds.

My CDL-B would probably be just fine for me as long as I don't upgrade to a large fifth wheel in which case I would need a class A. I have no immediate plans, so I decided to save some money and downgrade to a D with an "R" endorsement in my future. Besides, having a CDL means you can get ticketed with a BAC over .04 instead of .08--don't need that.

Here's where the fun starts. I asked them why they couldn't immediately give me the "R" endorsement seeing as how I had already passed the road test when I got my B. Both Albany and North Tonawanda told me flat out "no". The people in Lockport, where I was actually doing my transfer, were more understanding. No one had ever done this before but two people thought I should be able to do it. Unfortunately, a third person on the phone said that it couldn't be added because there was no way to get the almighty computer to do it. A guy at the next window said he felt sorry for me having to take a road test to get a license that I already had! I got so close...

So for now I have no plans to get a larger trailer and will be content with my D. I will probably get the "R" endorsement in the future.

[ROC-REQS]

Originally Posted by Isaacs

Update:
...

Isaacs,

Thanks for the update and keeping us posted.

[shadester]

I had another unsuccessful attempt applying for the R endorsement:


Response By Email (REP-2) (03/14/2018 03:59 PM)
Dear Bob

We contacted the Testing office on this question and we were advised that a road test for an RV endorsement with a class D license is necessary as the GCWR exceeds 26,000 lbs total.

Thank you
bml


Customer By Service Web (03/12/2018 09:59 AM)
I've been to my local DMV office 3 times, I've called Albany 3 times and even emailed them. Albany indicated I need a Class D with a R endorsement. I have a pickup truck GVWR of 14000lbs. and a RV(house trailer) GVWR of 15900lbs. The local office (Kathy window 5) said I need a CDL A license. So today I went down with the previous email I recieved from you. I am now being told a pickup and rv trailer is not a RV. The class D is only for a single vehicle RV and the R is for like a Bus rv. I'm trying to be legal but I am really frustrated. Now the say all I need is a class D. They claim the pickup and house trailer is measured by the unloaded vehicle weight of both. I can't get the actual law. And if my local office is incorrect can someone straighten this issue out by calling them. My last resort is writing a certified letter to the commissioner of the DMV. Thank You! Bob P.

So I am waiting for a reply from the Commissioner of DMV via snail mail. The local office questioned the validity of my email contact. They couldn't provide the law on what they are telling me now either. I've never seen such a mess. When I get the response, I will update.

[norty1]

Sounds like my battle with medical insurance claims.

[Mad Cow]

Guess this is why I am at an advantage by having a CDL A with all endorsements. If it can be driven on a road, I can drive it. But I needed the CDL A for my business. And along with the more stringent BAC standard, it also includes random drug testing.

[Haul n it all]

in Pennsylvania if gvw of both added is over 26,000 or trailer is over 10,000 a non commercial class A is required it requires alearners permit a short question and answer with testing officer[study the commercial book] and a driving test plus paralle parking at the test lot. fee is 5 dollars .Only catch is you must show up with a licenced driver to take test just like a kid with a learners permit. Most 5th wheels exceed the 10.000 GVW so most drivers should have one but few do and the dealers are mostly unaware of the reg. when selling and don't mention it . I don't think it is inforced much but if stopped for some other reason it could complicate things . like parking until you find a licenced driver. Every state is different but I think if endorsement is required it is always NON commercial for personal use.

[Midnightmoon]

Originally Posted by Haul n it all

in Pennsylvania if gvw of both added is over 26,000 or trailer is over 10,000 a non commercial class A is required it requires alearners permit a short question and answer with testing officer[study the commercial book] and a driving test plus paralle parking at the test lot. fee is 5 dollars .Only catch is you must show up with a licenced driver to take test just like a kid with a learners permit. Most 5th wheels exceed the 10.000 GVW so most drivers should have one but few do and the dealers are mostly unaware of the reg. when selling and don't mention it . I don't think it is inforced much but if stopped for some other reason it could complicate things . like parking until you find a licenced driver. Every state is different but I think if endorsement is required it is always NON commercial for personal use.

Quick question for clarification. I have been told here in Western PA at 2 separate driver's license centers, Uniontown and Greensburg, that the requirement for a non-commercial class a are that the combination GVWR of the truck and tow vehicle exceeds 26000. Are you stating that it also comes in to effect with any trailer over 10K? My understanding is that when the trailer is over 10K, the truck must be registered for the combination weight of truck and trailer. But that doesn't effects the license, only the vehicle registration unless that combination exceeds the 26000 Class A requirement mentioned above.

By the way, I've been trying to convert my Class A CDL to a non-commercial class A in Pa. Neither of the centers I visited can give me a straight answer on how to do it. Any insight or information you may have would be greatly appreciated.

[Bassdogs]

About 14 years ago the Coast Guard [yet the Coast Guard] started requiring fishing guides on our lake to get a Merchant Marine "6 pack" license. Their logic was that we took people on our boats for a fee so they put us in the same classification for a small ferry or barge. We usually have 1 or 2 customers at a time and take them small mouth fishing. The coast guard has jurisdiction because the lake spans 2 States and is considered navigatable water. Must have forgot the dam that created the lake but after passing a written test, a commercial secure drug test, we were then sworn in as merchant marine officers at a Coast Guard facility right there with kids actually going into the service. We played their game and paid the $150 for the drug test etc but after 5 years we had to renew and they tightened the requirements and the cost rose to over a grand because you had to go to Nashille and spend the night on 2 different occasions and submitted to ongoing random drug tests.

Since I was only a part time guide, I joined the majority of guides and just ignored the renewal since in 5 years no one had been checked for the license. I kind of think this CDL thing for heavy campers is in the same category. Maybe required in some states but no one can find out why or how to become compliant. Time to move on.

[Haul n it all]

to answer midnightmoon in regard to pa reg. I cannot find anything about combination registration for non commercial use . I would not do it . . I guess you could take the non commercial A test then surrender your CDL. . I assume you are trying to just transfer from CDL to non commercial without testing which you would think would be a no brainer but this is gov.
I took my test in Greensburg and you can go during closed hours to practice parallel parking your trailer in the painted sq. since it is something fairly uncommon to rving.

[Midnightmoon]

Originally Posted by Haul n it all

to answer midnightmoon in regard to pa reg. I cannot find anything about combination registration for non commercial use . I would not do it . . I guess you could take the non commercial A test then surrender your CDL. . I assume you are trying to just transfer from CDL to non commercial without testing which you would think would be a no brainer but this is gov.
I took my test in Greensburg and you can go during closed hours to practice parallel parking your trailer in the painted sq. since it is something fairly uncommon to rving.

When I went to Uniontown, they told me that I didn't need to retest. I would only need to submit an application but that they didn't know what the form was or where they would get it. They told me to go to Greensburg and ask there (for some reason they couldn't call Greensburg for me, I had to physically go).

When I arrived in Greensburg, the nice lady at the Greensburg Center told me that yes I would have to take the test that you did. I would take the written test for the permit and then I would have to schedule a test with the examiner. I would simply have to come with a class A driver to the testing site. I then asked if I could just come on my own since I already have my Class A CDL. She then asked one of the examiners. He said that there was no reason to have to go through the testing process. Just fill out the form to convert from Commercial to Non-Commercial class A.

Well as you can imagine, Greensburg has no Idea how to process that request. I tried to contact PenDot directly and that didn't work out. I put in a request for help through my local state senator's office to see if he could get anywhere. I haven't heard anything back yet.

Does any of this shock you living in PA?

[RAurand]

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

Guess this is why I am at an advantage by having a CDL A with all endorsements. If it can be driven on a road, I can drive it. But I needed the CDL A for my business. And along with the more stringent BAC standard, it also includes random drug testing.

That is why I keep my Pennsylvania Class A CDL. Like you, if it's on the road, I am licensed to drive it. Up to combined weight of 80,000 pounds.

As for the BAC, I have NEVER been pulled over to have a random test.

Midnightmoon,
Please let us know what the State Senator comes up with.