Looking for fifth wheel towing advice

[usmc616]

Hi all, I currently tow a TT but am looking to get a fifth wheel. My questions are about "pin weight". My current TV is a 2004.5 Ram 2500 with the HO 5.9 Cummins rated to tow 13,050lbs. GCWR is 20,000lbs ( I found this on several tow guides), GVWR is 9,000lbs ( from label on door) and curb weight is 6727 lbs ( from same label on door) but weighed 7540 on scale( full tank of diesel, 140lb driver, cap on bed and tool box in bed) . My truck is a 4x4 with a 6' 3" bed.
With the above info I am trying to find out what will be my limiting factor when looking at fifth wheel campers. If I understand it correctly I should estimate 15-20% of the fifth wheel GVWR to be my pin weight, is that correct??Iif so then I only have 1490lbs available of pin weight? ( GVWR- Curb weight) is that correct? Educate me please.

[mbwatson11]

You actually have less than that. You need to add the weight of the people, dogs, hitch and anything else in the truck to the curb weight. Then subtract that from the GVWR and that will leave you the available pin weight.

[Big1]

You are really limited by your payload, look on the door and find out the number.

[Cincinnati Kid]

The payload will get you. Even if you have a 10,000 pound GVWR 5th wheel, at 15% pin weight, you're over your payload. And 15% is bare minimum.

[usmc616]

Originally Posted by mbwatson11

You actually have less than that. You need to add the weight of the people, dogs, hitch and anything else in the truck to the curb weight. Then subtract that from the GVWR and that will leave you the available pin weight.

I do realize I need to subtract the items you mentioned from my available GVWR. I was using just the driver weight to keep the math simple.
Could you provide me with your vehicles GVWR? Incase I need to start looking at a new TV. Thanks, Joe

[usmc616]

Originally Posted by Cincinnati Kid

The payload will get you. Even if you have a 10,000 pound GVWR 5th wheel, at 15% pin weight, you're over your payload. And 15% is bare minimum.

OK, thanks for the info, what is the pin weight percentage I should aim for 18%,20% ?

[usmc616]

Originally Posted by Big1

You are really limited by your payload, look on the door and find out the number.

For the life of me I do not see anywhere the label on the door states " this is your available payload". Does subtracting the vehicle's actual weight from the GVWR give me the available payload??

[DonaandDon]

Adding Timbers or adding a leaf spring may get you to the local park, but if your towing long distances or looking for that 8-10 year period? It's time to up grade that truck. For me but a ford. The new trucks are now beast. The Dodge dually can handle 30,000 now.

[usmc616]

Originally Posted by DonaandDon

Adding Timbers or adding a leaf spring may get you to the local park, but if your towing long distances or looking for that 8-10 year period? It's time to up grade that truck. For me but a ford. The new trucks are now beast. The Dodge dually can handle 30,000 now.

Adding a leaf or Timbrens will probably help my TV squat less when hitched up but I don't think that will help me avoid being over my GVWR.

[RedHorse1]

Originally Posted by usmc616

Hi all, I currently tow a TT but am looking to get a fifth wheel. My questions are about "pin weight". My current TV is a 2004.5 Ram 2500 with the HO 5.9 Cummins rated to tow 13,050lbs. GCWR is 20,000lbs ( I found this on several tow guides), GVWR is 9,000lbs ( from label on door) and curb weight is 6727 lbs ( from same label on door) but weighed 7540 on scale( full tank of diesel, 140lb driver, cap on bed and tool box in bed) . My truck is a 4x4 with a 6' 3" bed.
With the above info I am trying to find out what will be my limiting factor when looking at fifth wheel campers. If I understand it correctly I should estimate 15-20% of the fifth wheel GVWR to be my pin weight, is that correct??Iif so then I only have 1490lbs available of pin weight? ( GVWR- Curb weight) is that correct? Educate me please.

My pin is 23% at my last weighing. 20-25% is what I’ve read is expected.

[Magnolia Tom]

Originally Posted by usmc616

For the life of me I do not see anywhere the label on the door states " this is your available payload". Does subtracting the vehicle's actual weight from the GVWR give me the available payload??

Not sure on dodge (ram) but on fords there’s a sticker that has the tire size/inflation info and it states “cargo should not exceed xxxx pounds”.

You are correct in subtracting the actual weight from the GVWR to get the available payload. I’m kinda surprised your 3/4 ton only has 9000 pounds GVWR. I thought it would have been 10k

[usmc616]

Originally Posted by RedHorse1

My pin is 23% at my last weighing. 20-25% is what I’ve read is expected.

RedHorse1 Thank you for your reply. I believe I need a much stouter TV or need to buy a very light fifth wheel.

[usmc616]

Originally Posted by Magnolia Tom

Not sure on dodge (ram) but on fords there’s a sticker that has the tire size/inflation info and it states “cargo should not exceed xxxx pounds”.

You are correct in subtracting the actual weight from the GVWR to get the available payload. I’m kinda surprised your 3/4 ton only has 9000 pounds GVWR. I thought it would have been 10k

Magnolia Tom, Since my TV is 15 years old I figured the door labels back then did not state the available payload. I have been asking fifth wheel owners their numbers so I can get a better idea what TV I may need to purchase next. Thanks for the reply.

[Cincinnati Kid]

Originally Posted by usmc616

Magnolia Tom, Since my TV is 15 years old I figured the door labels back then did not state the available payload. I have been asking fifth wheel owners their numbers so I can get a better idea what TV I may need to purchase next. Thanks for the reply.

Our F250 is 10,000 GVWR. It weighs, on a scale, with a full tank of gas, us, miscellaneous stuff and our 5th wheel hitch, about 7500#. (It's a gas engine, but if it was diesel, it would weigh closer to 8000#, because diesels weigh more.)

So we have 10,000 minus 7500= 2500 payload to play with. Our small 5th wheel puts around 2000# on the hitch, lightly loaded. So the last time we weighed it, we had 400- 500 payload left. (We were at 19% pin weight at that time.) We've been keeping Amazon busy, because there's always something else we need, so our weight has gone up, I'm sure. Next trip we'll reweigh it.

We're retired, and this, our first rv, might be our last- we'll see. But if we ever went bigger, we would need a dually.

[usmc616]

Originally Posted by Cincinnati Kid

Our F250 is 10,000 GVWR. It weighs, on a scale, with a full tank of gas, us, miscellaneous stuff and our 5th wheel hitch, about 7500#. (It's a gas engine, but if it was diesel, it would weigh closer to 8000#, because diesels weigh more.)

So we have 10,000 minus 7500= 2500 payload to play with. Our small 5th wheel puts around 2000# on the hitch, lightly loaded. So the last time we weighed it, we had 400- 500 payload left. (We were at 19% pin weight at that time.) We've been keeping Amazon busy, because there's always something else we need, so our weight has gone up, I'm sure. Next trip we'll reweigh it.

We're retired, and this, our first rv, might be our last- we'll see. But if we ever went bigger, we would need a dually.

Thank you for the info. I am getting a better idea of what numbers I need to look at.

[CampNow]

Originally Posted by usmc616

Hi all, I currently tow a TT but am looking to get a fifth wheel. My questions are about "pin weight". My current TV is a 2004.5 Ram 2500 with the HO 5.9 Cummins rated to tow 13,050lbs. GCWR is 20,000lbs ( I found this on several tow guides), GVWR is 9,000lbs ( from label on door) and curb weight is 6727 lbs ( from same label on door) but weighed 7540 on scale( full tank of diesel, 140lb driver, cap on bed and tool box in bed) . My truck is a 4x4 with a 6' 3" bed.
With the above info I am trying to find out what will be my limiting factor when looking at fifth wheel campers. If I understand it correctly I should estimate 15-20% of the fifth wheel GVWR to be my pin weight, is that correct??Iif so then I only have 1490lbs available of pin weight? ( GVWR- Curb weight) is that correct? Educate me please.

IMO, you have three options.

#1. Based on your empty truck weight of ~7,500 lbs. (and your 9k GVWR) you only have ~1,500 lbs. of payload--slightly more if you removed the cap (camper shell). If you want to stay at or under all your ratings (especially your 9k GVWR), you're going to be limited to towing a very small 5th wheel with approx. 1,000 lbs. of pin weight (remember you also have to deduct the weight of the hitch, passengers and gear from your payload).

#2 Even the newer 3/4-tons (with a higher 10k GVWR) are at or over GVWR/payload towing many 5th wheels. Many of these owners elect to just stay at or just under the RAWR (typically 6,000 - 6,500 lbs.) while ignoring the GVWR/payload ratings and call it a day.

I believe your truck has a 6,000 lb. RAWR. Your empty rear axle weight is most likely less than 3,500 lbs. If you're comfortable ignoring GVWR/payload, that gives you at least 2,500 lbs. of remaining rear axle capacity to support payload and pin weight. That would enable you to support 1,500 - 2,000 lbs. of pin weight (plus hitch, passengers, and gear).

#3. However, if you're NOT comfortable ignoring the GVWR/payload (or towing a very small 5th wheel), then your only option is to 1) upgrade to a newer 3/4-ton diesel with a 10k GVWR (to gain approx. 1k lbs. more payload vs. your current truck), 2) upgrade to a newer 1-ton diesel SRW truck with a 11.5k-12k GVWR (to gain 2k-2.5k lbs. more payload vs. your current truck), or 3) upgrade to a newer 1-ton diesel DRW (dually) with a 14k GVWR (to gain 4k-4.5k lbs. more payload). A gas truck in each of scenarios will net you an additional 500 - 1,000 lbs. of payload due to the lighter engine.

Google will unearth hundreds of debates about the pros and cons of ignoring GVWR/payload and using the RAWR to determine payload (with 3/4-ton trucks). I'd suggest Googling a few of these debates to help you make your best, informed decision.

Last, but not least, keep in mind the manufacturer's empty pin weight specs for their 5th wheels are low-ball numbers designed to sell trailers. An empty pin weight rating of 1,500 lbs. can easily balloon to 2,000 - 2,250 lbs. (or more) once the 5th wheel is loaded.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

[RedHorse1]

Below is a screen shot of my weight spreadsheet.
The TV is a '13 F350 2WD, SB, CC, Diesel
The factory weight of the 5th is 11402#

[usmc616]

Originally Posted by RedHorse1

Below is a screen shot of my weight spreadsheet.
The TV is a '13 F350 2WD, SB, CC, Diesel
The factory weight of the 5th is 11402#
Attachment 53155

Very helpful information. Thank you for sharing.

[usmc616]

Originally Posted by CampNow

IMO, you have three options.

#1. Based on your empty truck weight of ~7,500 lbs. (and your 9k GVWR) you only have ~1,500 lbs. of payload--slightly more if you removed the cap (camper shell). If you want to stay at or under all your ratings (especially your 9k GVWR), you're going to be limited to towing a very small 5th wheel with approx. 1,000 lbs. of pin weight (remember you also have to deduct the weight of the hitch, passengers and gear from your payload).

#2 Even the newer 3/4-tons (with a higher 10k GVWR) are at or over GVWR/payload towing many 5th wheels. Many of these owners elect to just stay at or just under the RAWR (typically 6,000 - 6,500 lbs.) while ignoring the GVWR/payload ratings and call it a day.

I believe your truck has a 6,000 lb. RAWR. Your empty rear axle weight is most likely less than 3,500 lbs. If you're comfortable ignoring GVWR/payload, that gives you at least 2,500 lbs. of remaining rear axle capacity to support payload and pin weight. That would enable you to support 1,500 - 2,000 lbs. of pin weight (plus hitch, passengers, and gear).

#3. However, if you're NOT comfortable ignoring the GVWR/payload (or towing a very small 5th wheel), then your only option is to 1) upgrade to a newer 3/4-ton diesel with a 10k GVWR (to gain approx. 1k lbs. more payload vs. your current truck), 2) upgrade to a newer 1-ton diesel SRW truck with a 11.5k-12k GVWR (to gain 2k-2.5k lbs. more payload vs. your current truck), or 3) upgrade to a newer 1-ton diesel DRW (dually) with a 14k GVWR (to gain 4k-4.5k lbs. more payload). A gas truck in each of scenarios will net you an additional 500 - 1,000 lbs. of payload due to the lighter engine.

Google will unearth hundreds of debates about the pros and cons of ignoring GVWR/payload and using the RAWR to determine payload (with 3/4-ton trucks). I'd suggest Googling a few of these debates to help you make your best, informed decision.

Last, but not least, keep in mind the manufacturer's empty pin weight specs for their 5th wheels are low-ball numbers designed to sell trailers. An empty pin weight rating of 1,500 lbs. can easily balloon to 2,000 - 2,250 lbs. (or more) once the 5th wheel is loaded.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

So it looks like for me to do this right, and not settle on getting a smaller than desired fifth wheel, I will need to upgrade my TV. What I really like about my current TV is it is a non DEF diesel.
My plan of action probably will to get a 1 ton SRW and then purchase the fifth wheel we want.
Thank you for the time you put into gathering this information, it has helped me immensely.

[Packerbacker_TX]

You're off to a good start and I'm sure it'll be reiterated several times here. You'll get some opinion from people towing anything they like and some opinion from the weight police too. The sensible thing is to stay within margin for legal liability and safety reasons. If you know your max payload is 1,500 lbs - allowing 20% tongue weight for a 5th wheel means you're limited to a 7,500 lbs 5th wheel - which is small by most standards. There are some considerations that can help a bit.
* Buy a "half ton towable" model as they're lighter than standard 5th wheels.
* Keep the 5th wheel light and don't load it down with stuff.
* Use the front of the 5th wheel storage for lighter items.
* Use a lighter 5th wheel hitch like an Andersen Ultimate Hitch (40 lbs vs. 200 lbs)
* Try not to tow your 5'r with water in the tanks. Each gallon weighs about 8 lbs.

Do the math a few times before you commit to a purchase. Good Luck!