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Old 10-03-2011, 01:20 PM   #31
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3'senough,
If you go to page 2 of this posting you can see the LKTS that was on their lot, hooked up to my tow truck. I had a concern at that time and the salesman and shopman told me I'd be fine. That's when they suggested maybe airbags or some of lift kit. They gave me the name of a local garage that they work with when someone requires tow modifications and that's the one I refer to in my post above. It was not until I got good information from this form that I became enlightened on all the different weight factor's that are involved with towing.
I too agree, that this venture is suppose to be fun and exciting and ever since I've been researching the towing factor, it's become dreadful. If I cannot find something that is lighter, I am not going forward.
Question? I did find an Eagle that has almost the identical layout but has a pin weight of 440 lbs. lighter and over all weight of 1,025 lbs. lighter. Do you think this would make a difference or just leave that one too as it is still over my total weight limits.
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Old 10-03-2011, 02:53 PM   #32
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Another Scenario

Here’s an alternative Fifth Wheel (Eagle instead of Pinnacle)

Unload Vehicle Weight = 11,175 lbs
Dry Hitch Weight = 2,225 lbs.

My towing rate per Dodge Dealership is 14,500 lbs (2011 Towing charts shows 12,700 lbs)

My GAWR (sticker) = 6,010
My GAWR actual = 3,180 (from scale this morning)
GAWR Left = 2,830
Let’s say I add 3,000 lbs cargo to F.W. I now take 20% of that which = 600 lbs added to pin weight for now a total of (2,225 dry pin weight) + (600 add’l weight) = 2,825. I have 2,830 to work with, according to my calculation above, leaving 5 lbs. to spare. Close but within limits.

I am now well within weights on my hitch limits. 15,000 lbs towing, 3,500 lbs pin.

The only question I have now is the tow rating of my truck. I cannot seem to get an affirmative answer on this question. My Truck Dealership says 14,500 lbs. I looked it up on the link in the previous posts here and found a 2011 Towing Guide which rates it at 12,700 based on the 4x4, short box with a 3.73 gear ratio. I cannot find a tow rating chart for the 2010. I don’t know if that was because it was the new design for that year and maybe it’s a 2010 and ˝. I have not idea there.

The bottom line is the Eagle seems to fit the bill better for my truck although I would still be over the 12,700 lb tow rating that the 2011 Towing Chart shows. The unloaded weight of the Eagle is 11,175 lbs and I am calculating 3,000 lbs of cargo, for a total now of 15,700 lbs. I would for sure plan on adding air bags if I went with this scenario. I did find out through this website that I have the “E” rated tires.
Any opinions on this one?
The Dealership emailed me back and said the Eagle would be a fantastic alternative although the 12 CU ft Refer is not available and it will only hold the combowasher/dryer.
Hey, I just have to say, thanks for putting up with all my questions!!
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Old 10-03-2011, 03:00 PM   #33
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Smitty,

Great effort on confirming your "actual" loaded TV weights..., it's amazing how many RV's are purchased under weight assumptions and/or mis-information that to many times creates a lot of disappointment when it's to late.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
snip.....Question? I did find an Eagle that has almost the identical layout but has a pin weight of 440 lbs. lighter and over all weight of 1,025 lbs. lighter. Do you think this would make a difference or just leave that one too as it is still over my total weight limits.
Well, it all comes down to if you believe in using manufacturer's weight limits. I use weight limits because I have found that in the majority of the cases the end result is a well matched TV/FW (TT, HTT, etc.) where the TV will perform as it is designed to do under towing conditions. Some folks will say that manufacturer's weight limits are conservative, but I have yet to get anyone to define by how much, and I don't want to be the one to find out.

As I mentioned in an earlier reply; "Not knowing your loading habits, it is very possible your actual loaded FW weight could be less, thus resulting in a lower pin weight"......., because not everybody loads their FW to GVWR. Many FW's come with a generous CCC, only you know if you will use all of it. Just something to think about as you review your different FW options.

It is refreshing to hear that your RV dealership responded with some degree of caution in their reply, to many would just say "you will be fine" even when TV weight certificates say otherwise.

Bob

On Edit: Smitty, I just noticed your most recent post, I have yet to read it through.
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Old 10-03-2011, 03:56 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
My GAWR (sticker) = 6,010
My GAWR actual = 3,180 (from scale this morning)
GAWR Left = 2,830
Let’s say I add 3,000 lbs cargo to F.W. I now take 20% of that which = 600 lbs added to pin weight for now a total of (2,225 dry pin weight) + (600 add’l weight) = 2,825. I have 2,830 to work with, according to my calculation above, leaving 5 lbs. to spare. Close but within limits.....snip
Smitty,

I believe you left out one weight limit, your TV's GVWR. In order to be within your TV's weight limits neither the GAWR or GVWR can be exceeded. This is your earlier GVWR findings: "As you can see the GVWR on my truck is 9600 LBS. I weighed the truck with a full tank of gas, the hitch and myself, it weighed 7960 LBS. That leaves only 1640 LBS for the pin weight of the trailer." It appears that your TV GVWR is your present hurdle, (2,825lbs - 1,640lbs) = 1,185lbs over the TV GVWR.

I don't tow FW's, so I don't know if using the low end of the 15% to 25% pin weight range would be recommended on the 36ft. Eagle 351MKTS ?? I know on the longer TT's we tend to push the loaded tongue weights toward the high end of 10%-15% range (TT recommendation) for better handling.

Just thinking out load......

I'm curious what ideas forum members that tow FW's can offer to work through the TV GVWR weight delta of 1,185lbs?

Smitty, please check my logic/math because I may have overlooked something.

Bob
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Old 10-03-2011, 04:18 PM   #35
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Remember, weight you add to the trailer dosn't all go to the hitch. Weight behind the wheels remove weight from the hitch. Weight ahead of the wheels are shared by the wheels and hitch.

Wheel placement also affects hitch weight. Our Montana (32') had a dry hitch weight of 2200#. Longer Montana's had a lighter hitch weight because of over hang behind the wheels.

Slides behind the axles make the hitch lighter also.
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Old 10-03-2011, 04:50 PM   #36
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I think Rustic Eagle has nailed the weight factor that is still hanging. We went throught the same calculations when ordering a 2011 Jayco 5th wheel. Even though our truck has the 10,000lb GVWR we found that the largest unit we could handle (by the numbers) was a Jayco SuperLite 5th wheel. Settled for a 31.5 RLTS and even with that we are right at the max numbers.
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Old 10-03-2011, 07:21 PM   #37
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Here's what I found based on 2011 models which I do not think changed much. I thought the major change was from 2009-10. But based on the towing guide in dodge.com you have a 20,000 GCVW rating and 2300 payload for your rear ratio and Cummins package. Unlike some other manufaturer guides it does not differentiate between 5th vs conventional trailer ratings. Dodge just wants a 5th wheel hitch for any trailer over 10K according to their guide.

However, if you take the SRW 3500 tow ratings they jump to 3020# in your config with a 21,000 GCVW and 13,750 on the trailer max. So if truly the only difference is a spring package then I would say do the spring package and get your capacities up. Maybe even try and call Dodge direct and talk to an engineer to confirm any differences. Jayco offers talking to them so maybe Dodge would extend the same service to an owner.

Then you open up a few more options in your search and it gets you safely within your limits. If you did that mod I think you would still be at the limit for the current model but if you dropped to a 1800-2200 pin weight it would give you room to add the hitch and then load the trailer. Figure a trailer in 10,500-11,500 dry would give you 1500-2K of room to load it up.

Here's the link:http://www.ramtrucks.com/shared/pdf/..._Tow_Chart.pdf
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Old 10-03-2011, 09:11 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3'senough View Post
snip......However, if you take the SRW 3500 tow ratings they jump to 3020# in your config with a 21,000 GCVW and 13,750 on the trailer max. So if truly the only difference is a spring package then I would say do the spring package and get your capacities up.....snip
3'senough,

Question.., according to Smitty his TV as it sits has a GVWR of 9,600lbs, what is the specified GVWR of the particular SRW 3500 your referencing?

Please correct if I'm wrong, but are you thinking that if Smitty up-graded to the SRW 3500 spring package the GVWR of the SRW 3500 comes along with it (assuming it's higher than 9,600lbs)?

Willing to learn something here.....

Bob
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Old 10-04-2011, 08:08 AM   #39
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Eagle,

I am in no way an expert on this nor do I have half the knowledge you posess in this department. I was mearly making an observation just purely based on the information provided. As for the laws and regulations pertaining to a change like this one should consult the local officials who oversee this. Maybe a good heavy truck mechanic shop in his local area can provide smitty with more direction on that.

My numbers were simply to assume that all factors between the 3500 and 2500 are equal with the exception of the springs. The referenced chart has the listed 3500 SRW GVWR at 10,100, but the payload @2950 and overall GCWR at 21,000. Again this assumes all factors are equal with the exception of the spring package. Drivetrain, rear, frame, tires and brakes.

Your thinking is correct from a vehicle rating standpoint, that without properly documenting a change it may not increase the total GCWR on the vehicle which becomes a DOT question. It may be worth looking into though.
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Old 10-04-2011, 08:29 AM   #40
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Thanks Guys,
I stopped by my Truck Dealership this morning and had them review the figures that I worked up on the Jayco Eagle. Rustic Eagle was right, I forgot to put in the figures for the GVWR. If I use the 9600 GVWR on my truck and subtract the total pin weight that I worked up (adding 600 lbs. (20% for an estimated 3,000 lbs extra cargo weight) to the dry hitch weight of 2,225 lbs that totals 2,825 lbs for an adjusted pin weight. I then subtract that from the 9,600 plus the actual weight of my truck (at scales yesterday) of 7,960 that only leaves me 1,640 for additional weight to carry in my truck. Although I'm OK with the GAWR, I still have the GVWR to work with, which I would now be over by 1,640 lbs. It's hard to believe by the size of my truck that it can only handle an additional 1,640 lbs. The engine is so big, they had to raise the hood to accomadate it. That's the part that stumps me, but it is what it is. I'm now trying to come up with a solution to increase the GVWR ratio safely. Two person's have already told me that air bags would be my solution. At this point, I don't really know what to think. Do I just add the air bags and say, "oh well, other Rver's tow this way" and just hang it up. I know one thing for sure, the first thing a salesman should do at a RV Dealership is ask, "what are you going to tow with?" Then go out and look at the tags on the vehicle and workup all three figures that affect your towing abilities. GVWR, GAWR and the actual tow rating. My heads swimming from all of the abbreviations but it is all very, very interesting. My wife is even getting in on it. We are going up on Saturday to visit the Dealership. I let them know that the Pinnacle is out of the question for sure. There's no way I will tow that monster with my truck.
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