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Old 12-17-2020, 10:43 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Bullitt6283 View Post
I thought my timing was advanced too. I tried higher octane gas, but it didn't help.
When I heard the noise in the video, I thought EUREKA! It sounds exactly like my noise!
https://youtu.be/Oa6cr2dFkPE


.
Yup, that video could have been shot in MY Greyhawk. Sounds EXACTLY the same, same RPM range in occurrence and all.

IMO, we've positively identified the problem, and the potential fixes.

I ALMOST pulled the trigger on a belt yesterday since I was ordering supplies for oil changes on our daily drivers, but just couldn't see buying the Gates belt from O'Reilly (mobile order pickup) without doing any research or pricing.
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Old 12-17-2020, 12:04 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Camper_bob View Post
Yup, that video could have been shot in MY Greyhawk. Sounds EXACTLY the same, same RPM range in occurrence and all.

IMO, we've positively identified the problem, and the potential fixes.

I ALMOST pulled the trigger on a belt yesterday since I was ordering supplies for oil changes on our daily drivers, but just couldn't see buying the Gates belt from O'Reilly (mobile order pickup) without doing any research or pricing.
+2

It looks like the vibration shown in the OP's video is the belt hitting its resonant frequency. This is a pretty well documented issue for machinery drive belts, but I haven't found anything in regards to automotive use. That missing idler pulley would probably help. Here is some info from a Gates technical document:

Q. What causes belt-drive vibration and how can it be corrected?
A. Drive belts experience both vertical and lateral vibrations when their natural frequencies coincide with resonant
frequency of connected equipment.
Belt tension can affect the amplitude of this vibration. Therefore, to correct the problem, first check for proper
tension. A common method to control vertical vibration uses a restraining device (metal rod or idler pulley) placed
perpendicular to the belt span and close to or lightly touching the belt. This device should be positioned roughly
1/3 of the span distance from the larger pulley.
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Old 12-17-2020, 01:35 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by watchout View Post
+2

It looks like the vibration shown in the OP's video is the belt hitting its resonant frequency. This is a pretty well documented issue for machinery drive belts, but I haven't found anything in regards to automotive use. That missing idler pulley would probably help. Here is some info from a Gates technical document:

Q. What causes belt-drive vibration and how can it be corrected?
A. Drive belts experience both vertical and lateral vibrations when their natural frequencies coincide with resonant
frequency of connected equipment.
Belt tension can affect the amplitude of this vibration. Therefore, to correct the problem, first check for proper
tension. A common method to control vertical vibration uses a restraining device (metal rod or idler pulley) placed
perpendicular to the belt span and close to or lightly touching the belt. This device should be positioned roughly
1/3 of the span distance from the larger pulley.
Thank you!!

So basically what I'm getting out of this explanation is that this is not going to cause long-term harm to the equipment, other than potentially premature belt wear. And even that should be slight.

Now, that being said, it could cause premature hair loss, or increased graying of hair (as it seems to have in my case ). This has been an annoyance for FAR too long IMO... But I'm glad to know it's really little more than just an annoyance ... and I still intend to make efforts to fix it; I've lost enough hair...
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Old 12-17-2020, 08:39 PM   #44
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My curious mind wonders if that boss is threaded internally, so another idler could be bolted on?
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Old 12-17-2020, 08:54 PM   #45
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My curious mind wonders if that boss is threaded internally, so another idler could be bolted on?
I would bet that it is. Otherwise, that un-tapped part would be a different Ford part number, and increase the costs to manage sourcing and inventory.

I'm going to check mine tomorrow.
.
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Old 12-18-2020, 11:48 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by watchout View Post
+2

It looks like the vibration shown in the OP's video is the belt hitting its resonant frequency. This is a pretty well documented issue for machinery drive belts, but I haven't found anything in regards to automotive use. That missing idler pulley would probably help. Here is some info from a Gates technical document:

Q. What causes belt-drive vibration and how can it be corrected?
A. Drive belts experience both vertical and lateral vibrations when their natural frequencies coincide with resonant
frequency of connected equipment.
Belt tension can affect the amplitude of this vibration. Therefore, to correct the problem, first check for proper
tension. A common method to control vertical vibration uses a restraining device (metal rod or idler pulley) placed
perpendicular to the belt span and close to or lightly touching the belt. This device should be positioned roughly
1/3 of the span distance from the larger pulley.
Thoughts to share (:>) I agree that the sound is due to the resonant frequency from the belt which relates to how tight it is and the open length between pulleys. Think of this as the same thing that occurs with a guitar string. With that in mind, I looked to see if I could obtain a Goodyear gatorback belt as I had used on another vehicle and from my personal experience, it was the quietest belt I have ever used, in fact I thought something was wrong it was so quiet.

During my search I found that Goodyear and Continental belts are now the same company and made at the same location along with the knowledge that Goodyear belt name is going away. In addition, I looked up the correct belt on RockAuto and under the "info" tab I read that the "special" design of the gatorback belts "helical" is being phased out now and if you order, you may receive the "helical" design or the oem standard design. In any case, I wanted the original design as that design was specifically made for quietness and long durability. The only place I could find that still sells them (I am sure there are other places as well though) is through Ebay.

I also determined that for Continental belts (as well as similar for other mfgs), that the belt length is in the part number. So the part number that mini4mw listed being the Continental Part #4060998 means that the belt length is 99.8" long. If you reference the original belt mini4mw referenced it is the Ford/Motorcraft Part #: JK61004B (8620) which my research tells me that belt is 100.4" long. In any case, I suspect with such a long belt that an inch +or- doesn't matter, my research though listed for my 2010 V10 to use the Continental (or Goodyear) belt #4061000 which is 100.0" long.

In any case, you can still find the quiet design and I am not sure if I can share an ebay link, but check this out and look at the pictures of the belt to get a better idea of what I am talking about along with a chart showing this belt to be much quieter than the competitors (which I take as a grain of salt seeing how they don't show the name of the competing belts mfg). This is the belt I purchased last night, however from a slightly less cost seller, I shared this one though as the pictures are informative.

Also, I found that this is the same size belt for almost all E450 V10's starting from at least 09 to 2019, likely as early as 2003 up to 2020 (assuming the same V10 engine) but I didn't confirm that so do you due diligence, but I suspect it is the same. Check out this link, I am not trying to sell you on this, but will tell you that getting this same belt in the future may be challenging as they phase these out, likely to make more money with the standard belts. Notice how this belt has diagonal cross cuts which is why it is quieter (imo) as the helical cuts change the resonance of the belt.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/4061000-Goo...gAAOSwLq1ftFzt
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Old 12-18-2020, 11:58 AM   #47
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Thoughts to share (:>) I agree that the sound is due to the resonant frequency from the belt which relates to how tight it is and the open length between pulleys. Think of this as the same thing that occurs with a guitar string. With that in mind, I looked to see if I could obtain a Goodyear gatorback belt as I had used on another vehicle and from my personal experience, it was the quietest belt I have ever used, in fact I thought something was wrong it was so quiet.

During my search I found that Goodyear and Continental belts are now the same company and made at the same location along with the knowledge that Goodyear belt name is going away. In addition, I looked up the correct belt on RockAuto and under the "info" tab I read that the "special" design of the gatorback belts "helical" is being phased out now and if you order, you may receive the "helical" design or the oem standard design. In any case, I wanted the original design as that design was specifically made for quietness and long durability. The only place I could find that still sells them (I am sure there are other places as well though) is through Ebay.

I also determined that for Continental belts (as well as similar for other mfgs), that the belt length is in the part number. So the part number that mini4mw listed being the Continental Part #4060998 means that the belt length is 99.8" long. If you reference the original belt mini4mw referenced it is the Ford/Motorcraft Part #: JK61004B (8620) which my research tells me that belt is 100.4" long. In any case, I suspect with such a long belt that an inch +or- doesn't matter, my research though listed for my 2010 V10 to use the Continental (or Goodyear) belt #4061000 which is 100.0" long.

In any case, you can still find the quiet design and I am not sure if I can share an ebay link, but check this out and look at the pictures of the belt to get a better idea of what I am talking about along with a chart showing this belt to be much quieter than the competitors (which I take as a grain of salt seeing how they don't show the name of the competing belts mfg). This is the belt I purchased last night, however from a slightly less cost seller, I shared this one though as the pictures are informative.

Also, I found that this is the same size belt for almost all E450 V10's starting from at least 09 to 2019, likely as early as 2003 up to 2020 (assuming the same V10 engine) but I didn't confirm that so do you due diligence, but I suspect it is the same. Check out this link, I am not trying to sell you on this, but will tell you that getting this same belt in the future may be challenging as they phase these out, likely to make more money with the standard belts. Notice how this belt has diagonal cross cuts which is why it is quieter (imo) as the helical cuts change the resonance of the belt.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/4061000-Goo...gAAOSwLq1ftFzt
Great info! Thanks. What would be the easiest way I can find out if my 2018 V10 is a match?
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Old 12-18-2020, 12:28 PM   #48
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I would suggest to go to Continental and in the links down further in the page find the one listed as "partfinder" (http://www.partfinderelite.com) in the applet from that link you can enter in your VIN number and find the correct belt similar to the ford vin tool that mini4mw listed earlier from Ford (see link #15).

Interestingly I just entered my VIN and it came back suggesting the 4060995 belt. That would be 99.5" long, however during my search last night, I cross-referenced the motocraft oem belt (mine is the same as mini4mw listed) Ford/Motorcraft Part #: JK61004B (8620) and that belt is 100.4 and the cross reference to it was the belt I ordered 40601000 (100"). Keep in mind the belt mini4mw listed that he purchased was the 4060998 belt (99.8") so I am of the belief that anywhere between 99.5" and 100.4" would work fine and the slack taken up easily by the tensioner.

I would suggest the vin lookup, and if your belt is listed anywhere near the 100" you should be good with the belt number I listed, or the number from the tool I shared, or with the part number the OP shared in post #15. Also, the other belts possible are way outside of the 100" range, so if you get a number that is around 80" or 120"+ then that is likely the wrong belt.

I would also suggest to use the ford link mini4mw shared where you can enter in the vin# and see if it comes back with the belt number Ford/Motorcraft Part #: JK61004B (8620) which is a 100.4" belt. This is why I am of the belief that you could easily use a belt from 99.5" to 100.5" (assuming the ridges and width match). One other point, the other numbers in the part number refer to the number of ridges and belt width, so all 4060#### belts are the same in that regard with the last 4 numbers referencing the length.

I went with the 100" as that is in the middle and was cross referenced from the oem motocraft belt, although I don't remember where I got that cross reference, and again, I am confident that a fraction of an inch +or- on such a long belt doesn't matter, but do check your vin to be sure. ~CA
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Old 12-18-2020, 12:31 PM   #49
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I just use the part finder in the eBay link. I’m too lazy. I like to have spare parts for that “just in case” moment!
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Old 12-18-2020, 12:39 PM   #50
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To ramble a bit more... lol, I suspect that the Ebay price is low now (~15$) due to this design being discontinued, when I purchased the same design belt a few years back it was in the ~$40 range. Being discontinued is the reason I went ahead and purchased the belt at this time. (I saw a reference to this design belt being discontinued on rockauto). I will hang on to the one I ordered for a spare for now and install it during my next maintenance cycle where I plan to change the oil and service the entire unit likely in the spring time. I will verify the belt when it comes in though, it should have the part number I ordered and I suspect I can measure the half length (~50") as confirmation I have the correct belt. My oem belt has low mileage still as mine only has ~14000 miles now and it all looks like new, including the belt but it is 10 years old now so the oem will become the spare.
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Old 12-18-2020, 12:52 PM   #51
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I just use the part finder in the eBay link. I’m too lazy. I like to have spare parts for that “just in case” moment!
FYI, the ebay parts finder for the belt I shared a link to doesn't show this belt is the correct belt for the "E"450 however I determined it is the correct belt. The ebay link does show this is correct for the "F"450's however with the single overhead cam as our "E" series motorhomes have. "6.8L 415Cu. In. V10 GAS SOHC Naturally Aspirated"

FYI, there are many parts no longer listed for the "E" series after around 2014 as Ford quit selling them as a true van, and only sell them as a cut-away version available for special markets such as RV's and ambulances, and a few other similar uses.
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Old 12-18-2020, 01:16 PM   #52
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One last comment to share at this time, the link I shared (I purchased mine from another seller for a 1$ less) states the following, so if you order from that link be sure to ask for the "elite", "gatorback" design to get the quiet belt.

Continental Elite Now Continental OE Technology:
Please note, Continental has begone to discontinue the Continental Elite Series (Formally known as the Goodyear Gatorback design) They will continue with the new Continental OE Technology Series. We will Continue to ship Continental Elite Series until supplies remain. If you have a preference in Design please contact us prior to order.
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Old 12-18-2020, 04:06 PM   #53
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My curious mind wonders if that boss is threaded internally, so another idler could be bolted on?
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Originally Posted by Bullitt6283 View Post
I would bet that it is. Otherwise, that un-tapped part would be a different Ford part number, and increase the costs to manage sourcing and inventory.
I'm going to check mine tomorrow.
.

The boss is threaded. Adding an idler should be easy.
.
Attached Thumbnails
IMG_2933.JPG  
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Old 12-18-2020, 06:14 PM   #54
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The boss is threaded. Adding an idler should be easy.
.
Thanks for the pic.

Adding an idler there would eliminate the longer distance to pulleys, and should keep those belts from flailing. If I owned an E450, I'd install one there.

Our F150 3.5L has two belts, and at least one is a stretch belt. There's one idler for the second one, but I'm not sure it's sprung. That one may be a stretch belt also. More investigating when it gets warm again.
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Old 12-19-2020, 02:36 PM   #55
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I called my local Ford dealer, and the parts guy was able to identify the idler pulley and the bolt from 1999 V10.

See attached.

I should have these parts in-hand Monday afternoon.


.
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File Type: pdf Idler Pulley and Bolt V10.pdf (133.3 KB, 84 views)
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Old 12-19-2020, 03:23 PM   #56
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Bullitt 6283, I would like to see you just add the idler first with the old belt to see if the idler alone will cure the problem. Jay
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Old 12-19-2020, 03:39 PM   #57
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Bullitt 6283, I would like to see you just add the idler first with the old belt to see if the idler alone will cure the problem. Jay
That's my plan. I had already changed the belt last Spring to GATES K060997HD premium belt with the green outside. The noise came back.

.
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Old 12-19-2020, 11:56 PM   #58
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I am so glad this POST is here. We have a 2017 Greyhawk 29mv and that sound was truly "Bugging" me to know end. The video was "picture Perfect". I just got back off the road and that was going to be the first thing I addressed.
Thank you all for your input.

Happy Camping
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Old 12-21-2020, 09:01 AM   #59
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Thanks for the parts diagram. I went ahead and ordered the parts and will see about getting them in. For all those that have replaced the belt and the sound went away (like me) there are still complaints of the noise coming back. Can't hurt having another pulley there as long as it doesn't pull the belt too much right (not enough slack for tensioner)? Anyway, I'll stick it on one time when I take it for a monthly spin so it doesn't sit too long.

This is what I ordered:
https://parts.lakelandford.com/p/Ford__
/Accessory-Drive-Belt-Idler-Pulley/53690978/YW7Z8678AA.html
https://parts.lakelandford.com/p/For...08102S437.html
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Old 12-21-2020, 01:11 PM   #60
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